[user104658]

Hyperindividualism = "my individual happiness and the way I want to live my life is more important than any negative societal consequences of the things I want to do".

The insane irony of this is that supporters of the ideology often also declare themselves socialists, when it's just extreme libertarianism wearing a new hat.

Originally Posted by Liam-

And people lose confidence in themselves when their spouses run off with younger models, shall we crack down on marriages too?

No... but will we throw a party for the cheating spouse and congratulate him for "following his heart"?

[user104658]

Originally Posted by thesheriff443

The very idea that young women can’t control themselves and are throwing themselves at the internet naked
Why don’t you ts, give women more credit

It's not that they can't control themselves, it's that it's becoming "normal" ... because people are insisting on telling them that it's "normal". Or not even just normal ... "positive", "empowering". This is very, very basic social psychology (ans also, although Dezzy would like to insist otherwise, EXACTLY the same reason that Britain has a binge drinking problem).

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Oliver_W

I hear McDonald's is hiring.

I think this is a bit flippant, I fully accept that sex workers (actual sex workers, not 18 year old kids who still live at home and have been indoctrinated into getting naked for their Social Media fans) often find themselves with few alternatives to sex work.

But jesus ****ing christ if we're at the point of arguing that this fact isn't absolutely bleak, and a damning indication that we are failing young women to a shocking degree. "Oh well they have no alternative but to sell themselves to men, so good on them for doing that on their own steam! Empowering! Das feminism!". Just what? Are people actually listening to themselves when they say this? Are people actually at the point of being THIS deluded about the reality of these industries, and the implications of young women (and in fact young gay men) almost always being the "sellers", and men over 30 making up the vast majority of the "buyers".

Meh. I just don't believe that people don't, on some level, recognise this is HUGELY problematic.

[Barry.]

Originally Posted by Oliver_W

Why not hire him to do your accounts, or pay him to do your online shopping? Find
something minor you can pay him to do, so instead of degrading himself he might gain some life skills and self worth.

Babe you watch porn it’s the same thing. Pay them for their job!
Also we aren’t telling them what to do, they post the pictures, videos before you actually pay on onlyfans. They do what they want to do not what the people are asking them to

[The Slim Reaper]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Hyperindividualism = "my individual happiness and the way I want to live my life is more important than any negative societal consequences of the things I want to do".

The insane irony of this is that supporters of the ideology often also declare themselves socialists, when it's just extreme libertarianism wearing a new hat.



No... but will we throw a party for the cheating spouse and congratulate him for "following his heart"?

Socialism is actually pretty divided on the issue of sex work, but more importantly, it's actually divided within females themselves, so unless you are now inferring that women have zero interest in caring about themselves, then you're making points that don't tally up to reality

Extreme libertarianism is slavery and this ain't it. A modern socialist approach would be around unionisation (now I'm sure someone mentioned that earlier in the thread), and it's purely typical liberal centrist bull**** that has not a whiff of a solution to a problem. Put your cards on the table and tell us how you would address it, because I've seen you say it should be banned, then say you've never said it should be illegal, so provide a solution. Tell us that you want the state to dictate exactly what people can do with their bodies.

[Oliver_W]

Originally Posted by The Slim Reaper

Extreme libertarianism is slavery

How'd you work that one out?

[The Slim Reaper]

Originally Posted by Oliver_W

How'd you work that one out?

Because it's true. Libertarianism believes that you should be able to employ people on bed and board, zero wage contracts.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by The Slim Reaper

Socialism is actually pretty divided on the issue of sex work, but more importantly, it's actually divided within females themselves, so unless you are now inferring that women have zero interest in caring about themselves, then you're making points that don't tally up to reality

Extreme libertarianism is slavery and this ain't it. A modern socialist approach would be around unionisation (now I'm sure someone mentioned that earlier in the thread), and it's purely typical liberal centrist bull**** that has not a whiff of a solution to a problem. Put your cards on the table and tell us how you would address it, because I've seen you say it should be banned, then say you've never said it should be illegal, so provide a solution. Tell us that you want the state to dictate exactly what people can do with their bodies.

I'll concede that I made a flippant "ban this filth" comment early on driven largely by the fact that I find the whole thing repulsive (adult men paying girls fresh out of high school for porn... fight me on it being repulsive, I guess?) but I don't actually want the state to do anything.

I want people to stop sending the message that it's positive, empowering, or normal to sell porn subs as a choice that's "just the same as any other work", because it clearly is not, unless that other work also celebrates the objectification and commoditisation of women's bodies, results in some seriously grim outcomes for the young people who are drawn into it believing it to be positive, and (just a minor one) demonstrably facilitates and encourages the platforming of pornographic content featuring actual minors.

I can accept that it's a safer form of sex work for sex workers. I will completely conceed that that is true. What I'm being asked to do is ignore the fact that it is an absolute disaster for young girls who now think this is a normal income stream, have countless people (clearly) insisting that it is indeed a normal income stream, and that these girls now make up 90+% of the channel.

Do I now have to want something legislated against or banned to ask people to stop ****ing celebrating it?

[user104658]

Originally Posted by The Slim Reaper

Because it's true. Libertarianism believes that you should be able to employ people on bed and board, zero wage contracts.

Libertarianism as a basic political philosophy definition "believes" only in liberty as the core principle; autonomy, freedom of choice, individualism.

Interpertations of market libertarianism may have been used in certain real-world political examples to justify slavery (with a lot of word play and creative interpretation) but that's a totally separate thing. It's like pointing to the Soviet Union and saying "Look, that's socialism". Libertarianism espouses hyperindividualism by basic definition and that is exactly what a lot of modern supposedly "lefty" social thinking emphasises too.

I can't imagine anything much further from a caring or socialist concept than OnlyFans? It's a toxic stew of libertarian individualism and neoliberal freemarket capitalism. It's a right-wing (economically, that is, I'm not Godwining) wet dream. In what sense is it not that?


[edit to add] Yes a libertarian concept would be the ability to employ on zero wage contracts with the market itself naturally dictating what's required as compensation. That inevitably ends up being "very little" because the concept of trickle-down economics is inherently flawed. But the dream of someone who advocates libertarian economic values is NOT working on those contracts. What is it again ... ? What is the Libertarian economic ideal?

Self-employment.

[The Slim Reaper]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I'll concede that I made a flippant "ban this filth" comment early on driven largely by the fact that I find the whole thing repulsive (adult men paying girls fresh out of high school for porn... fight me on it being repulsive, I guess?) but I don't actually want the state to do anything.

I want people to stop sending the message that it's positive, empowering, or normal to sell porn subs as a choice that's "just the same as any other work", because it clearly is not, unless that other work also celebrates the objectification and commoditisation of women's bodies, results in some seriously grim outcomes for the young people who are drawn into it believing it to be positive, and (just a minor one) demonstrably facilitates and encourages the platforming of pornographic content featuring actual minors.

I can accept that it's a safer form of sex work for sex workers. I will completely conceed that that is true. What I'm being asked to do is ignore the fact that it is an absolute disaster for young girls who now think this is a normal income stream, have contless people (clearly) insisting that it is indeed a normal income stream, and that these girls now make up 90+% of the channel.

Do I now have to want something legislated against or banned to ask people to stop ****ing celebrating it?

I mostly agree with your sentiments, but reality is one thing and wish fulfillment is another thing altogether (I'm talking about both of us here). I'd rather it wasn't a thing either, but it is, so for me, recognising the rights and deserved protection for all of the creators is a far more meaningful way to discuss it.

I completely understand as a father of a young woman, it is understandably a far more emotive debate for you than for me, so I can talk about all the rights and protections in the world, but if I have a daughter someday, then I have to be honest and recognise in myself, that I may have a far more aggressive stance.

That doesn't invalidate the opinions non parents, either. I don't think there is a right or wrong way to think about it - other than the lap dance sheriff weirdness from a couple of pages back.

I don't think there is a right or wrong way to think or feel about the subject, but I'm not sure that belittling everyone who sees it differently is the way forward either. It's a completely new thing for this and future generations so it's completely natural we haven't really got to grips with it.

[user104658]

Maybe it's a moot point anyway; what started with Pornhub now seems to be what's happening over at OF and as BOTS pointed out there's no real way to stop it. The legal/corporate world has figured out that it's impossible to guarantee that "open to all" explicit content platforms only host content that is legal, and the payment facilitators won't allow payments when there's a risk that it's funding illegal porn (rightly, in my opinion) ... the only payment option will be Crypto and at that point it might as well be deepweb.

[Tom4784]

Deleted Post

[Mystic Mock]

Originally Posted by Calderyon

Stepmom/MILF G&G fantasy. Probably

Spoiler:

Brazzers

or

Spoiler:

RealityKings

.

Spoiler only contains names of websites.

I wanna say it might've been on XVideos, but they might've gotten the video off Brazzers.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

Except it's not. Alcohol abuse can lead to death, and drugs are the same (also, they aren't legal).

An adult man or woman deciding they want to sell their nudes online in itself is not destructive behaviour, and you can't really doubt that OnlyFans seems to work out quite well for more than a good number of people who make money from it.

I “can’t really doubt that it works out quite well”? Do you mean in the sense that it’s possible for some (not most, by the way) to make good short-term money from an OnlFans account?

Because you’d need to show me some sort of evidence that there are often good long term outcomes. In fact, the overwhelming evidence is that sex work in general has absolutely abysmal long term outcomes, so why would Anyone assume that this variety suddenly has positive outcomes unless there’s some actual evidence of that? Short term financial gain is not any measure of a good outcome.

[user104658]

Oh hold on, scratch the entire question above, OnlyFans was founded in 2016 so the longest anyone has been using it for their work is 5 years.

You can’t possibly have any evidence of good long term outcomes, because there are no long term outcomes to be measured.

So the most sensible thing to do is assume that the long term outcomes are similar to the long term outcomes for people in traditional sex work or pornography. i.e. tonnes of evidence that it’s grim, and little to none that it’s positive, other than a handful of very high profile examples.

[thesheriff443]

Having met many many Lap dancers /strippers from all over the world some with kids they did what they did because they could earn enough in two nights to cover all their rent bills and child care costs for the whole month costs

[user104658]

Originally Posted by thesheriff443

Having met many many Lap dancers /strippers from all over the world some with kids they did what they did because they could earn enough in two nights to cover all their rent bills and child care costs for the whole month costs

“Men will pay a lot for access to women’s bodies” is not evidence of anything positive at all.

All you’re doing is painting an increasingly bleak picture of a world where men are desperate sadsacks with their cocks in their hands, and a huge chunk of women’s earning potential is in selling themselves as sex objects for those men’s enjoyment.

The fact that it’s true that many can earn more doing this than anything else is deeply, deeply depressing.

[thesheriff443]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

“Men will pay a lot for access to women’s bodies” is not evidence of anything positive at all.

Listen you have never been in contact with any women that are part of the sex industry basically you haven’t got a clue what it’s like for women actually doing the job

Just someone reading stuff on the internet

Lap dancers are in full control of the situation it’s strictly no touching, and the bouncers take great pleasure in throwing some twat out that pushes his luck.

[Marsh.]

He's not saying they're literally dragged into the job though.

He's saying as a society, those kinds of jobs should not be encouraged. It's a shame of society that a young single mother would even need to work two nights as a lap dancer to pay her bills really.

The jobs will be there if people want to do them. But I imagine there's a disproportionate amount of people who are doing it out of desperation, having no other viable options. I'd be interested to see the figures of people who do those jobs because they want to do them, and not because they feel they have no other options.

[thesheriff443]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

He's not saying they're literally dragged into the job though.

He's saying as a society, those kinds of jobs should not be encouraged. It's a shame of society that a young single mother would even need to work two nights as a lap dancer to pay her bills really.

The jobs will be there if people want to do them. But I imagine there's a disproportionate amount of people who are doing it out of desperation, having no other viable options. I'd be interested to see the figures of people who do those jobs because they want to do them, and not because they feel they have no other options.

It’s a false idea to think women don’t enjoy doing it
Women like and enjoy sex and for some doing as part of a job ticks there box’s

[user104658]

Originally Posted by thesheriff443

It’s a false idea to think women don’t enjoy doing it
Women like and enjoy sex and for some doing as part of a job ticks there box’s

You have absolutely no idea what contact I do or don’t have with whom because I haven’t told anyone what my career is for nearly two and a half years, nor what my qualifications are, nor the specifics of my wife’s work. Because I don’t want to partially doxx myself on this forum. But don’t assume.

Anyway…

You’re doing a better job of arguing against the pro-sex work people on the thread than I am sheriff so honestly I’m just going to let you have at it.

Please tell us more about all of the strippers and sex workers you know and how much they love it. I’m on the edge of my seat!

[Calderyon]

Originally Posted by Mystic Mock

I wanna say it might've been on XVideos, but they might've gotten the video off Brazzers.

Probably seen it at some point.

[bots]

there are an awful lot of people that do jobs they would rather not do for all sorts of reasons, including financial, that have nothing to do with the porn industry. It's not possible to isolate the porn industry and treat it all as some unique thing when it covers a universe of different things. Some of it involves exploitation etc, but the vast majority of it these days is personal choice of the individual involved

[thesheriff443]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

You have absolutely no idea what contact I do or don’t have with whom because I haven’t told anyone what my career is for nearly two and a half years, nor what my qualifications are, nor the specifics of my wife’s work. Because I don’t want to partially doxx myself on this forum. But don’t assume.

Anyway…

You’re doing a better job of arguing against the pro-sex work people on the thread than I am sheriff so honestly I’m just going to let you have at it.

Please tell us more about all of the strippers and sex workers you know and how much they love it. I’m on the edge of my seat!

If you want here more about strippers and sex workers go and pay for it like the rest, no wait you already know everything or think you do as usual and suddenly you and your wife work in the sex industry.

You was happy to watch porn for free but if someone pays for it they are sad and pathetic, you are a hypocrite.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by thesheriff443

If you want here more about strippers and sex workers go and pay for it like the rest, no wait you already know everything or think you do as usual and suddenly you and your wife work in the sex industry.

You was happy to watch porn for free but if someone pays for it they are sad and pathetic, you are a hypocrite.

You have the wrong end of several sticks there sheriff.