[parmnion]

Originally Posted by GoldHeart

Her hair looks like a ice cream swirl

His face looks like a wife beaters

[ThomasC]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

A bit fatalist surely to say that if people want equality, they should be equally open to abusive language? The comparative things you’re saying people say about men aren’t OK either.

One major difference that you might note though, is that when shaming language is used against women it’s usually centred around sex/their sexuality/their sexual worth/their worth to men in general.

When shaming language is used against men it’s usually centred around them being unmanly, or woman-like.

So supposedly the worst thing a woman can be , the thing that should be really offensive to them, is being sexually unappealing to men…and the worst thing a man can be is “not manly enough”.

These things bear some thinking about when trying to see how it’s different. And you can see why it makes it more similar to what minorities face. The shaming women, gay people, and racial minorities are subject to are for being what they ARE. The shaming men face is for being NOT ENOUGH of what they are.

Therein lies the inherent misogyny of western patriarchy.

What they are and not enough of what they are.....it's still an attack against their sex.

I don't necessarily agree with your characterisation of what you deem usually shaming language..... But that's subjective so fair enough.

Women are not a minority so I strike that comment after 'and you see'

[ThomasC]

Originally Posted by GoldHeart

Just watch it back on the YouTube channels, that's what I'm going to do when I get home from work. But I'll probably watch it late in the night or Something.

Yeah I will do, I just like to watch it live with the commentary.

I will catch up on Sunday probably.

It could take weeks for the jury to decide although I imagine it will more likely be days. Due to long weekend in US, could have a decision on Tuesday.

Yesterday they sorted the jury instructions and any motions.

Today each side has two hours for closing arguments....starting 2pm UK time...... They can use any evidence that is already submitted as part of their closing arguments... Johnny is going first then Amber.

Not sure who is doing Johnny's, I know Ben Chew did opening so I imagine he will do closing.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

A bit fatalist surely to say that if people want equality, they should be equally open to abusive language? The comparative things you’re saying people say about men aren’t OK either.

One major difference that you might note though, is that when shaming language is used against women it’s usually centred around sex/their sexuality/their sexual worth/their worth to men in general.

When shaming language is used against men it’s usually centred around them being unmanly, or woman-like.

So supposedly the worst thing a woman can be , the thing that should be really offensive to them, is being sexually unappealing to men…and the worst thing a man can be is “not manly enough”.

These things bear some thinking about when trying to see how it’s different. And you can see why it makes it more similar to what minorities face. The shaming women, gay people, and racial minorities are subject to are for being what they ARE. The shaming men face is for being NOT ENOUGH of what they are.

Therein lies the inherent misogyny of western patriarchy.

Yeah, pretty much. One example Thomas used was a man being called a bitch because what's worse for a man than being called a woman!

I see it all the time as well when people talk about girls at school, that girls are "bitchy" but boys are laid back and never act like that, if they have an argument they sort it with their fist raawr and are best friends again the next day. That's such a lie and one everyone believes for some reason. I have a son and a daughter both of them have had similar issues in their friend groups growing up. The difference is in the way people react to hearing about those problems, if a girl in a girl friendship group does something sneaky or bullying towards another girl in that group people say stuff like "That's girls for you" "Girls are so bitchy in school" where as if a similar thing happened in a boy friendship group the individual boy is blamed as being a bad apple or else he's like a girl.

[ThomasC]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Yeah, pretty much. One example Thomas used was a man being called a bitch because what's worse for a man than being called a woman!

I see it all the time as well when people talk about girls at school, that girls are "bitchy" but boys are laid back and never act like that, if they have an argument they sort it with their fist raawr and are best friends again the next day. That's such a lie and one everyone believes for some reason. I have a son and a daughter both of them have had similar issues in their friend groups growing up. The difference is in the way people react to hearing about those problems, if a girl in a girl friendship group does something sneaky or bullying towards another girl in that group people say stuff like "That's girls for you" "Girls are so bitchy in school" where as if a similar thing happened in a boy friendship group the individual boy is blamed as being a bad apple or else he's like a girl.

Disagree and such sweeping generalisation.

How about that person is a bully, he's trying to fit in, she's trying to fit in,jealousy, peer pressure, hormones etc.

As for the example you quoted that I used, that's your opinion of what it would feel like for a man being called that. It's like you expect special treatment

[ThomasC]

*100 pages later*

Thomas, Niamh and Toy Soldier still going on about the same thing

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by ThomasC

Disagree and such sweeping generalisation.

How about that person is a bully, he's trying to fit in, she's trying to fit in,jealousy, peer pressure, hormones etc.

As for the example you quoted that I used, that's your opinion of what it would feel like for a man being called that. It's like you expect special treatment

What do you mean I expect special treatment? in what way? I've never called a man a bitch either by the way (unless I'm channeling my inner Jessie)

Also, how am I using sweeping generalisations when I'm talking about my own experiences

[ThomasC]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

What do you mean I expect special treatment? in what way? I've never called a man a bitch either by the way (unless I'm channeling my inner Jessie)

Also, how am I using sweeping generalisations when I'm talking about my own experiences

Because you're trying to tell a man how he should feel, 'because what's worse for a man than being called a women'. ....so that's why I added it's like you expect special treatment....because you're a woman and only certain words can hurt you, but I can't be hurt by being called a bitch? My words btw, but trying to understand that quoted comment.

Your second part, because you're applying your own experiences to then imply that most would feel that same way or view that (your words, 'people'), that's just girls for you and men are bad apples or else he's a girl. I don't doubt that some would say those things, but it's not a true reflection of reality as a whole.

It's sweeping for those reasons.

How about take the sex out of it and call it for what it is? Rather than having this male and female divide which often doesn't need to be there......calling it rather bullying, age related behaviour, hormones, peer pressure etc which is all very prevelant in school environments regardless of sex.

Let's deal with equality and diversity on that level.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by ThomasC

Women are not a minority so I strike that comment after 'and you see'

Is that really the crux of the issue, then? You don't believe that women can face oppression - or at least not the same kind of oppression - based on being women, because they are not a literal minority by-the-numbers?

[bitontheslide]

the sooner this trial is consigned to history the better

[ThomasC]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Is that really the crux of the issue, then? You don't believe that women can face oppression - or at least not the same kind of oppression - based on being women, because they are not a literal minority by-the-numbers?

Of course they can face oppression and face misogony.

I gave an example a few pages back quoting religion which would not be specific to one woman, but women as a whole. Clear misogony based on beliefs.

You tried to use women as a minority when comparing what minority groups face hence my comment.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by ThomasC

Because you're trying to tell a man how he should feel, 'because what's worse for a man than being called a women'. ....so that's why I added it's like you expect special treatment....because you're a woman and only certain words can hurt you, but I can't be hurt by being called a bitch? My words btw, but trying to understand that quoted comment.

I'm not telling you how anyone should feel. I'm giving you my opinion on these particular insults. I still have no idea what special treatment you think I'm looking for? You seem to be saying that I think it's ok for men to be insulted which I'm not at all........?

Your second part, because you're applying your own experiences to then imply that most would feel that same way or view that (your words, 'people'), that's just girls for you and men are bad apples or else he's a girl. I don't doubt that some would say those things, but it's not a true reflection of reality as a whole.

It's sweeping for those reasons.

OK maybe a bit but I find it hard to believe you've never heard phrases like that though

How about take the sex out of it and call it for what it is? Rather than having this male and female divide which often doesn't need to be there......calling it rather bullying, age related behaviour, hormones, peer pressure etc which is all very prevelant in school environments regardless of sex.

Let's deal with equality and diversity on that level.

Absolutely, that's the whole point I was trying to make?

[Toy Soldier]

I think we’re off in endless circles again because there’s a fundamental disagreement about the term misogyny itself that makes the rest of the discussion possible… with ThomasC believing it only applies to a broadly held belief system about women in general and not agreeing that a targeted attack on one woman based on gendered traits is indicative of underlying misogyny. Not to beat a dead horse but I just don’t really know where to go when someone sees phrases like “fish market” and disagrees that it’s misogyny. I found the other part of the text that makes me certain he’s talking about her being a “low value female” (Incel talk) in those texts;

“I met ****ing sublime little Russian here … Which makes me realize the time I blew on that 50 cent stripper.”

A sublime little Russian? He talks about a women he even (apparently) likes as though he’s just bought a puppy. Or maybe a nice car.

His thoughts are clearly on show and they’re gross and misogynistic… I’ve nowhere to go with this discussion when people can read these messages and say “nah, not misogyny”

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I think we’re off in endless circles again because there’s a fundamental disagreement about the term misogyny itself that makes the rest of the discussion possible… with ThomasC believing it only applies to a broadly held belief system about women in general and not agreeing that a targeted attack on one woman based on gendered traits is indicative of underlying misogyny. Not to beat a dead horse but I just don’t really know where to go when someone sees phrases like “fish market” and disagrees that it’s misogyny. I found the other part of the text that makes me certain he’s talking about her being a “low value female” (Incel talk) in those texts;

“I met ****ing sublime little Russian here … Which makes me realize the time I blew on that 50 cent stripper.”

A sublime little Russian? He talks about a women he even (apparently) likes as though he’s just bought a puppy. Or maybe a nice car.

His thoughts are clearly on show and they’re gross and misogynistic… I’ve nowhere to go with this discussion when people can read these messages and say “nah, not misogyny”

That's so slimey. He does come across as arrogant and a bit of a creep to me. For some reason him putting "little" in front of Russian annoyed me most of all

[ThomasC]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I think we’re off in endless circles again because there’s a fundamental disagreement about the term misogyny itself that makes the rest of the discussion possible… with ThomasC believing it only applies to a broadly held belief system about women in general and not agreeing that a targeted attack on one woman based on gendered traits is indicative of underlying misogyny. Not to beat a dead horse but I just don’t really know where to go when someone sees phrases like “fish market” and disagrees that it’s misogyny. I found the other part of the text that makes me certain he’s talking about her being a “low value female” (Incel talk) in those texts;

“I met ****ing sublime little Russian here … Which makes me realize the time I blew on that 50 cent stripper.”

A sublime little Russian? He talks about a women he even (apparently) likes as though he’s just bought a puppy. Or maybe a nice car.

His thoughts are clearly on show and they’re gross and misogynistic… I’ve nowhere to go with this discussion when people can read these messages and say “nah, not misogyny”

The text you quotes, is this one of the texts that was 'incoming' that Depp denied saying?. Funnily enough the one he admitted to, the fish market one was 'outgoing' proving that he did send it.... Two other texts were listed as 'incoming' suggesting that he did not send them as he claims he did not.

Yes I disagree that it is misogny, again, do I really need to explain my reasoning for this again? I am not denying it is deragatory and disgusting, but I don't know how you you get calling it misogony for reasons I have put forward numerous times.

I really don't need to quote the definition of misogny

I have asked for evidence in this thread to prove it is not an isolated incident because that would then form a basis for misogny, I have yet to see any other evidence other than derogatory comments towards one woman, namely Amber Heard.

[ThomasC]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

I'm not telling you how anyone should feel. I'm giving you my opinion on these particular insults. I still have no idea what special treatment you think I'm looking for? You seem to be saying that I think it's ok for men to be insulted which I'm not at all........?



OK maybe a bit but I find it hard to believe you've never heard phrases like that though




Absolutely, that's the whole point I was trying to make?

A)

No I'm not saying that. Special treatment, like I said before, you referenced and overlooked how a man should feel about being called a bitch....so what, women can get offended call someone a mysoginst freely and without evidence, but men should just get over it because it's not that bad being called that? It's all very subjective.

B) Incorrect. I said that I didn't doubt those things were and are said, but that it's not a true reflection as a whole. They're stereotypes that men use fists and women are bitchy. I gave examples to the contrary as to how it could be viewed without involving preconceived traits of a particular sex

C) your point must have gone over my head then because it seemed like you were backing up the view that particular sexes are viewed in a certain light, I take it to try and prove the point of misogny?

[ThomasC]

Text Johnny Depp admitted to sending, explaining he was very angry. Notice OUTGOING

The two text Johnny Depp denied sending, notice INCOMING



The amount of crookered evidence that Amber Heard's lawyers have presented is ridiculous......the amount of evidence Johnny depps lawyers have presented destroys so much of Amber Heard's credibility. She didn't have much to start with.

Look at the evidence. Evidence, evidence, evidence. The pictures, the audio, the video recordings.....

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by ThomasC

A)

No I'm not saying that. Special treatment, like I said before, you referenced and overlooked how a man should feel about being called a bitch....so what, women can get offended call someone a mysoginst freely and without evidence, but men should just get over it because it's not that bad being called that? It's all very subjective.

B) Incorrect. I said that I didn't doubt those things were and are said, but that it's not a true reflection as a whole. They're stereotypes that men use fists and women are bitchy. I gave examples to the contrary as to how it could be viewed without involving preconceived traits of a particular sex

C) your point must have gone over my head then because it seemed like you were backing up the view that particular sexes are viewed in a certain light, I take it to try and prove the point of misogny?

A) - WTF??? talk about really putting words in my mouth there.

B) - Why don't you think it's a true reflection as a whole? What are you basing that on. I told you why I think it's the case (having had children of both sexes who have been the whole way through the school system and hearing it a lot/also seeing it said A LOT online when the topic of male and female children come up.

C) - I agree with your idea of what it should be like, people should be viewed as individuals with individual personalities. I don't however agree that this is what happens in a lot of cases (school children being my example) I wasn't making that up to suit an agenda if that's what you're saying here?

[Niamh.]

Basically Thomas if you're actually denying that sexism in attitudes towards how male children and how female children behave in friendship groups etc even exist then there's zero point in us having anymore conversation about it

[Vanessa]

This morning closing arguments.
Then it goes to the jury. We could have a verdict as soon as today. Or it could take days.

[ThomasC]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

A) - WTF??? talk about really putting words in my mouth there.

B) - Why don't you think it's a true reflection as a whole? What are you basing that on. I told you why I think it's the case (having had children of both sexes who have been the whole way through the school system and hearing it a lot/also seeing it said A LOT online when the topic of male and female children come up.

C) - I agree with your idea of what it should be like, people should be viewed as individuals with individual personalities. I don't how ever agree that this is what happens in a lot of cases (school children being my example) I wasn't making that up to suit an agenda if that's what you're saying here?

A) I don't feel so. I've paraphased.

B) basing it on a lot of issues that are prevelant in schools
Bullying being huge, peer pressure being huge, social learning theory being huge, yes it is said and they're stereotypes, but I feel there's a lot more to it and someone's sex has a lot less to do with it.

C) we start talking about sexism then, don't we? Stereotypes. Going back to the whole misogny which is what this boils down to, is not really relevant most of the time to a school setting unless teenagers being teenagers have an innate hatred towards women. Yes there will be some. No I don't tihkbyou were making anything up.

We've really gone off track here.

[ThomasC]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Basically Thomas if you're actually denying that sexism in attitudes towards how male children and how female children behave in friendship groups etc even exist then there's zero point in us having anymore conversation about it

Not denying that at all.

I thought we were on about misogny.

Sexism and misogny differ.

Misogny is a hatred towards women. Sexism can lead to misogny....

For example, women should not wear boys clothes
That could be an opinion and would be sexism, but it doesn't mean that person hates women.

[ThomasC]

Originally Posted by Vanessa

This morning closing arguments.
Then it goes to the jury. We could have a verdict as soon as today. Or it could take days.

I very much doubt there will be a verdict today.

First the jury need to hear closing arguments and there is a lot of paperwork the jury need to get through and complete all instructions

[bitontheslide]

the verdicts are obvious i would have thought it wont take long at all

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

the verdicts are obvious i would have thought it wont take long at all

They SHOULD be obvious (both libel cases tossed in the bin) however due to all the "justice for Johnny" crap and how aggressive that fan base is, and that realistically there's no way the jurors are not aware of the social media storm around this, I have a distinct worry that they'll essentially be intimidated into favouring Depp.

There's a reason (a very good reason) that the Heard team filed a motion to have the juror's names kept confidential for 12 months following the end of the trial.