[Santa's NaughtiNess]

26% ? That's not gonna happen, no matter how much they strike.
It's completely unreasonable.

[Denver]

Originally Posted by Livia

No one's trying to make strike action illegal. They want to ensure that certain industries have to provide a basic cover during strike action. Sounds pretty reasonable to me.

If the Government made the job something someone was willing to spend a huge amount of years at uni for to be worth it in the end and also made it impossible for foreign doctors and nurses to come and do the most important job in the country there would be no need to strike would there

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Soldier Boy

Yes because the Tories don't want to negotiate, they want the NHS to collapse. It's barely even concealed at this point.

They're trying to make strike action illegal, the dystopian vibes are sadly very real.

That's where they are heading indeed.
Certainly going to tie firmly the hands of strikers to ensure less effectiveness of any of their action.
The pathetic bunch of incompetent Ministers who are blaming ANYONE and everyone else for their own almighty failure with the NHS over the going on 13 years almost.
Disgraceful.

The Doctors and nurses don't want to strike, they've been pushed over the edge by the government yet now the government answer is to purposely restrict action by them.
I'm sure the new extreme strike legislation will be challenged in the courts and if it is I hope it's successful in that challenge.

It's obvious 26% is not going to be possible but starting higher is sensible because as to this current number crunching waste of space PM, that's all he understands.

Good luck from me to ALL nurses and Doctors and others taking action to even just try to expose the lack of decency of and take on this totally inept government.

[UserSince2005]

Doctors think they are so smart and deserve so much they are actually nothing. The contribute nothing to the economy yet want to take so much. Pay them just lightly more than the useless nurses please

[arista]

BBC News Text:
[Senior doctors have voted in favour
of a 48-hour walk out from 20 July,
just two days after the end of a planned
five-day strike by junior doctors.
The paper says the action will leave the
health service, able to provide only the most
urgent and emergency care and quotes Matthew Taylor,
chief executive of the NHS Confederation,
calling the situation
"uncharted territory for a post-pandemic NHS".]

[bots]

it's not like the government hasn't been warned and they have time to make them a sensible offer

[user104658]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

it's not like the government hasn't been warned and they have time to make them a sensible offer

The whole thing is ****ed by both internal and external politics unfortunately. The NHS is done. There is one VAGUE chance of pulling out of the tailspin at the last moment, and that's if 1) Labour gets in at the next GE and 2) Labour gets back around the table very quickly and makes large-scale changes.

But I'm far from convinced that #1 will happen at all, and even if it does, I'm not convinced there will be a huge amount of movement on #2. Not quickly enough to matter, anyway.

[Oliver_W]

It's one of those situations in which it's easy to see both sodes - the 25%+ increase is technically a correction, and they've not been paid "properly" in ages; but it's hard to have sympathy for people on upwards of Ł90k who want to increase their pay by at least a quarter!

That would total a huge burden on the already overburdened NHS.

I think a lot of bottom-up changes need to be made tbh. Pissing money away on diversity lectures and paying for people to "transition" is a luxury, and shouldn't even be considered while there's a shortage of Beds and people are being underpaid.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Oliver_W

It's one of those situations in which it's easy to see both sodes - the 25%+ increase is technically a correction, and they've not been paid "properly" in ages; but it's hard to have sympathy for people on upwards of Ł90k who want to increase their pay by at least a quarter!

That would total a huge burden on the already overburdened NHS.

I think a lot of bottom-up changes need to be made tbh. Pissing money away on diversity lectures and paying for people to "transition" is a luxury, and shouldn't even be considered while there's a shortage of Beds and people are being underpaid.

You only need to take a look at the international pay standards (and no not just the US; other countries with socialised healthcare too) to see that both doctors and trained nurses in the UK are starting to lag way behind and the gap is increasing. So there are effectively two choices; we start paying these staff better, or we accept that the UK is not a first-world country capable of providing first-world healthcare.

And then exactly the same thing will happen as happens in developing nations; the staff who have any real skill/ability/talent pack their bags and move to countries that will pay them appropriately for their level of knowledge and skill, and we get left with the low-wage dregs.

Tories are already looking at shortening the length of healthcare education to funnel more staff through quicker. Competence levels will drop and people will die. There's no two ways about it.

Just pray you never get into a serious accident or develop a life-threatening or severe ongoing condition, I guess.

[Oliver_W]

Originally Posted by Soldier Boy

You only need to take a look at the international pay standards (and no not just the US; other countries with socialised healthcare too) to see that both doctors and trained nurses in the UK are starting to lag way behind and the gap is increasing. So there are effectively two choices; we start paying these staff better, or we accept that the UK is not a first-world country capable of providing first-world healthcare.

And then exactly the same thing will happen as happens in developing nations; the staff who have any real skill/ability/talent pack their bags and move to countries that will pay them appropriately for their level of knowledge and skill, and we get left with the low-wage dregs.

Tories are already looking at shortening the length of healthcare education to funnel more staff through quicker. Competence levels will drop and people will die. There's no two ways about it.

Just pray you never get into a serious accident or develop a life-threatening or severe ongoing condition, I guess.

I wasn't making a case against their payrise at all. But it should be coupled with widespread changes as to how NHS money should be spent, with more priority given to front line staff.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Oliver_W

I wasn't making a case against their payrise at all. But it should be coupled with widespread changes as to how NHS money should be spent, with more priority given to front line staff.

I agree to an extent but I don't think the bulk of the problem actually lies in healthcare development/lecturing/"niche healthcare" (not to say there can't be other debates around those topics, just that it's not really the financial burden).

There are huge day-to-day inefficiencies in every type of service that add up to a lot more in terms of resource wastage than operating a diverse range of services.

[Oliver_W]

Originally Posted by Soldier Boy

I agree to an extent but I don't think the bulk of the problem actually lies in healthcare development/lecturing/"niche healthcare" (not to say there can't be other debates around those topics, just that it's not really the financial burden).

There are huge day-to-day inefficiencies in every type of service that add up to a lot more in terms of resource wastage than operating a diverse range of services.

I'd say both need to be considered.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Oliver_W

I'd say both need to be considered.

I dunno, I mean I think everyone is aware that I'm no fan of money being spent on things like transition (especially with kids) but, for one, realistically in terms of healthcare it's an absolutely minuscule amount of money to the point of being insignificant, and also if making changes there it would be most ethical to ringfence that funding for the mental health services that should be available instead (and frankly... a lot more resources than that).

Affirmation is actually the easy (and cheap) option.

[Oliver_W]

Originally Posted by Soldier Boy

Affirmation is actually the easy (and cheap) option.

How is it cheaper than having it be a private-only service? Miniscule as it may be, I don't see how it's a justifiable public expense.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Oliver_W

How is it cheaper than having it be a private-only service? Miniscule as it may be, I don't see how it's a justifiable public expense.

Because as I said the elephant in the room is that the people who are under these services more often than not need far more significant ongoing mental health support, and mental health is already chronically under-resourced.

[user104658]

Regardless as I said it's a separate debate; you could cut the entire thing but compared in scale to parts of the service like A&E / orthopaedics / stroke / cardiology it would be like finding a Ł2 coin down the back of the sofa and trying to use it to pay your rent for a year.

[Zizu]

I was chatting to a doctor’s receptionist last week .. discussing health issues , waiting lists etc ..

Anyways she was adamant that due to Covid where they hardly saw anyone face to face ..that doctors are now simply LAZY and do the bare minimum


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[arista]

[arista]

Sky News Text:
[The news that the health secretary
has pledged to increase doctors' pay
if they call off their plans to strike]

[arista]

[arista]

[user104658]

If the govt will get round the table with doctors for further pay negotiations when they flat out refused to with nurses and AHP's there's going to be NHS civil war. It will go down like a lead balloon.

[Christmas Dynasnow]

Originally Posted by arista

sunak

[Zizu]

Originally Posted by arista

Image of Angry Nurses
with a few Doctors


Live Debate Now on LBC


[Junior doctors, who are set to be
balloted on strike action in early January,
are demanding a pay rise of nothing less
than 26 per cent.]

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/a...ody-think.html


Talk of Emergency Care
halted from day 1


3 Days of Solid Strike being talked about
for Monday

It won’t make much difference.. there’s about a 2 to 3 weeks waiting time for ours


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[arista]