[user104658]

Originally Posted by Cherie

Not at all surprised you haven’t been pulled by Liam or SB on this ‘joke’ try inserting Muslim for Murphy and count down to the outrage lol

I find outright jokes about these things a bit of a non-event Cherie, what gets my goat is people refusing to admit to having the attitudes and prejudices that are as plain as the nose on their faces .

You do nowt but strawman these days also . I quite plainly even said that yeah tbh I'd get a bit nervous if I saw a Muslim praying on a flight, that it's human nature given past events - so where is the outrage? I simply accept the obvious human psychology of snap reactions being unavoidable, and the clear fact that getting nervous about one religion (specifically) more than others is xenophobic. It just is. As an impartial fact, not even a judgement.

[rusticgal]

Originally Posted by Soldier Boy

I quite plainly even said that yeah tbh I'd get a bit nervous if I saw a Muslim praying on a flight, that it's human nature given past events - .

….and that is the point being made. I don’t believe that anyone on this forum would, even for a split second, feel that way had they seen that on an aircraft prior to take off or after take off.
As unfair as it is…it’s human nature and a natural reaction….

[user104658]

Originally Posted by rusticgal

….and that is the point being made. I don’t believe that anyone on this forum would, even for a split second, feel that way had they seen that on an aircraft prior to take off or after take off.
As unfair as it is…it’s human nature and a natural reaction….

Yes it is but it is still (by definition) xenophobic ... it's a form of racial profiling. I don't really see the harm in recognising and admitting our prejudices without getting precious about it - not one person on this earth has "no prejudice" and it's pointless to pretend otherwise or to take offense every time it's recognised. In fact I'd go as far as to say that anyone who claims to be 0% racist is either lacking in self-awareness, or simply lying.

[Mystic Mock]

Originally Posted by Soldier Boy

I find outright jokes about these things a bit of a non-event Cherie, what gets my goat is people refusing to admit to having the attitudes and prejudices that are as plain as the nose on their faces .

You do nowt but strawman these days also . I quite plainly even said that yeah tbh I'd get a bit nervous if I saw a Muslim praying on a flight, that it's human nature given past events - so where is the outrage? I simply accept the obvious human psychology of snap reactions being unavoidable, and the clear fact that getting nervous about one religion (specifically) more than others is xenophobic. It just is. As an impartial fact, not even a judgement.

Fair points for the most part.

[Mystic Mock]

Originally Posted by Soldier Boy

Yes it is but it is still (by definition) xenophobic ... it's a form of racial profiling. I don't really see the harm in recognising and admitting our prejudices without getting precious about it - not one person on this earth has "no prejudice" and it's pointless to pretend otherwise or to take offense every time it's recognised. In fact I'd go as far as to say that anyone who claims to be 0% racist is either lacking in self-awareness, or simply lying.

Are you saying that there's sum ting wong with people that claim to have zero racist thoughts or actions?

Seriously though I agree with you that everyone has some form of prejudice towards a particular group, whether it be race, gender, nationality, religion, political opinions etc, nobody can escape it.

[Redway]

Originally Posted by Mystic Mock

Well it's a Religion so it would be Islamophobia.

I know that I'm nitpicking.

No, it’s good you’re acknowledging the difference. Islam is ultimately not a race.

[Mystic Mock]

Originally Posted by Redway

No, it’s good you’re acknowledging the difference. Islam is ultimately not a race.

Thanks Redway.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Mystic Mock

Are you saying that there's sum ting wong with people that claim to have zero racist thoughts or actions?

Seriously though I agree with you that everyone has some form of prejudice towards a particular group, whether it be race, gender, nationality, religion, political opinions etc, nobody can escape it.

I think racial bias either conscious or subconscious is inevitable unless someone is raised in a bubble. The absolute best one can do is to be aware of the subconscious part and make active decisions to counter the. I think there are plenty of people - charitable, perhaps most people - who do not WANT to have those prejudices. Ironically... Believing that they aren't there probably makes it more likely that they'll slip through.

To use the scenario in this thread as an example...

Person believes they have no subconscious prejudice

- I see a Muslim praying on a plane
- I feel uncomfortable with this
- I am ABSOLUTELY not a prejudiced or xenophobic person
- Thus, my fears must be justified / may be reasonable / sensible.


Person 2 acknowledges that they have those subconscious prejudices

- I see a Muslim praying on a plane
- This makes me uncomfortable
- I acknowledge that I have some prejudices based on past major world/news events
- I revaluate the situation on what the most likely reason is for them to be praying on a plane
- I wonder "is my comfortable feeling actually justified or realistic?"


Basically what I'm saying is, believing absolutely that you have no prejudice can actually lead to a more prejudiced outcome.

[Ammi]

…I do think though that it can also be very damaging and exasperating to apply labels …(…at worst…)…and pointless …(…at best…)…because it has such a closing down impact on so many issues that would benefit from more open discussion…anyway, one of the sad things is, which is reflective of a regressive society if you like….(…I suspect…)…if this very same thread/discussion had taken place with the very same people pre 9/11 and pre other terrifying world events that the responses would be different because ‘fear’ would not have been attached to some things in the way it is being referred to in the thread…the ‘prejudice’ that is being applied as a label is not an inherent thing or belief, it’s sadly become and becoming a learned thing attached to fear and yes…encouraged by the media and such the like but that’s also the way of the modern world…I don’t know what the ‘answer’ going forward is because there isn’t one as such, these things have no obvious ‘fixes’….because fear is such a powerful ruler and it’s the thing that is being mentioned most in the thread… people have not ‘developed prejudism’ in their beliefs and behaviours post 911, that surely wouldn’t make sense…what they’ve developed are various fears…and I know and realise that’s being acknowledged also but the labels are still being applied which will in my opinion, only close down and regress further…

[Ninastar]

I agree that everyone has a natural bias. It just depends on how you treat others… but sometimes you have to take action

Ariana Grande concert for example

There were multiple people who were afraid to act because they didn’t want to seem racist and that is a big problem.

People are more afraid of accidentally seeming racist (when they weren’t… this guy was a terrorist) than potentially saving lives and that’s where my issue with being seen as offensive comes from

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Ammi

…I do think though that it can also be very damaging and exasperating to apply labels …(…at worst…)…and pointless …(…at best…)…because it has such a closing down impact on so many issues that would benefit from more open discussion…

A few years ago I'd have agreed with you Ammi but my more recent stance would be that the slightest hint of criticism will have a closing down effect anyway, because that's just how it is in 2023, and people are not in the market for open discussion so you might as well say it as it actually is and as you actually see it from the off - because padding around the eggshells trying to preserve people's delicate sense of self is a complete and utter waste of time.

Better to hold up a mirror and highlight something immediately, that has a maybe 2% chance of resonating with someone, than to expect any sort of good-faith discourse. It's just not on the table at all.

[rusticgal]

Originally Posted by Ammi

…I do think though that it can also be very damaging and exasperating to apply labels …(…at worst…)…and pointless …(…at best…)…because it has such a closing down impact on so many issues that would benefit from more open discussion…anyway, one of the sad things is, which is reflective of a regressive society if you like….(…I suspect…)…if this very same thread/discussion had taken place with the very same people pre 9/11 and pre other terrifying world events that the responses would be different because ‘fear’ would not have been attached to some things in the way it is being referred to in the thread…the ‘prejudice’ that is being applied as a label is not an inherent thing or belief, it’s sadly become and becoming a learned thing attached to fear and yes…encouraged by the media and such the like but that’s also the way of the modern world…I don’t know what the ‘answer’ going forward is because there isn’t one as such, these things have no obvious ‘fixes’….because fear is such a powerful ruler and it’s the thing that is being mentioned most in the thread… people have not ‘developed prejudism’ in their beliefs and behaviours post 911, that surely wouldn’t make sense…what they’ve developed are various fears…and I know and realise that’s being acknowledged also but the labels are still being applied which will in my opinion, only close down and regress further…

Well put Ammi...so true.

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by thesheriff443

Not be pulled because it’s an old joke that’s been around for years
And I’m clearly joking

Adding Muslim wouldn’t make it funny

How to confuse an Irish man

Give him a spade and a shovel and ask him to take his pick

and that is my point, no one can make a joke about muslim bombers without being called an Islamaphobe? but you are free to say Irish people are thick as a joke and not a word is said ? I dont care you can make jokes about who you like its the hypocrisy that gets me tbh

[Cherie]

btw I am sitting in the sun sipping a vino blanco, its great being thick

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Cherie

and that is my point, no one can make a joke about muslim bombers without being called an Islamaphobe? but you are free to say Irish people are thick as a joke and not a word is said ? I dont care you can make jokes about who you like its the hypocrisy that gets me tbh

Who made a joke about Muslim bombers? Who was called an Islamaphobe for making a joke? Is the hypocrisy in the room with us right now Cherie?

I don't think you're thick but you don't half just... make stuff up to support your argument... imaginary stuff that hasn't actually been said by anyone. Maybe a bit less day drinking would help .

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Soldier Boy

Who made a joke about Muslim bombers? Who was called an Islamaphobe for making a joke? Is the hypocrisy in the room with us right now Cherie?

I don't think you're thick but you don't half just... make stuff up to support your argument... imaginary stuff that hasn't actually been said by anyone. Maybe a bit less day drinking would help .

oh now I am a drunk as well...you really are a bitter person at times lol

[Nicky91]

or making jokes about Prophet Muhammad in the Danish and French cartoons


and then acting shocked they become victims of terror attacks



or Theo van Gogh whom made snuff films with a muslim actress Ayaan Hirsi Ali without her headscarf, also was kinda offensive to their culture, which got him killed (not just that but also being a racist towards muslims in the media)

[thesheriff443]

Originally Posted by Cherie

btw I am sitting in the sun sipping a vino blanco, its great being thick

You are making assumptions again

Of course I can make a joke about a Muslim being a bomber because I’m someone that doesn’t associate someone praying on a plane being a bomber
Would making a joke in this thread go down well ?, well some would enjoy it but as the Irish jokes in this thread has shown you think I’m using them to dig at you .

I’m not by the way.
I’m happy you are enjoying yourself unfortunately my brother in-laws dad has just died so we are not having a great time

But life is taking the good with the bad

[rusticgal]

Originally Posted by Cherie

btw I am sitting in the sun sipping a vino blanco, its great being thick

Enjoy....

[Ninastar]

Originally Posted by Nicky91

or making jokes about Prophet Muhammad in the Danish and French cartoons


and then acting shocked they become victims of terror attacks

I hate to say this Nicki but jokes shouldn’t really end with innocent people being killed

Like mayyyybe the terrorists are the problem here. Idk just a guess

[Oliver_W]

Originally Posted by Nicky91

or making jokes about Prophet Muhammad in the Danish and French cartoons


and then acting shocked they become victims of terror attacks

Victim blaming

Originally Posted by Ninastar

I hate to say this Nicki but jokes shouldn’t really end with innocent people being killed

Like mayyyybe the terrorists are the problem here. Idk just a guess

Yup.

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by rusticgal

Enjoy....

Thank you Rusti I intend to, you never know when life will take a turn for the worst

[Nicky91]

Originally Posted by Ninastar

I hate to say this Nicki but jokes shouldn’t really end with innocent people being killed

Like mayyyybe the terrorists are the problem here. Idk just a guess

insulting the islamic religion ain't stuff to joke about honestly

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by thesheriff443

You are making assumptions again

Of course I can make a joke about a Muslim being a bomber because I’m someone that doesn’t associate someone praying on a plane being a bomber
Would making a joke in this thread go down well ?, well some would enjoy it but as the Irish jokes in this thread has shown you think I’m using them to dig at you .

I’m not by the way.
I’m happy you are enjoying yourself unfortunately my brother in-laws dad has just died so we are not having a great time

But life is taking the good with the bad

Sorry to hear that, hope you and your family are okay, death is difficult at any time but especially more at this time of year.

[Nicky91]

are people also against Cat Stevens then for converting to muslim?