[Ammi]

Originally Posted by The Slim Reaper

The thing is, world class athletes pretty much all have these anomalies. Michael Phelps has double jointed ankles and his muscles produce only half the amount of lactic acid as his competitors, and loads of other things I can't remember or be bothered to look up, but there is zero controversy around him being the most successful winner of all time.

Lebron James is 6'9, around 280lbs, but can sprint down the basketball court faster than anyone else.

Anomalies like these crop up in all competitive sports.

…absolutely there is always going to be specifics and differences/peculiarities etc that can impact a performance and make exceptional athletes …with testosterone levels, though…it does have to be looked at more closely as it’s something more specific that we know tips that balance of ‘unfair’ at certain ‘enhanced’ levels ….

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by The Slim Reaper

The thing is, world class athletes pretty much all have these anomalies. Michael Phelps has double jointed ankles and his muscles produce only half the amount of lactic acid as his competitors, and loads of other things I can't remember or be bothered to look up, but there is zero controversy around him being the most successful winner of all time.

Lebron James is 6'9, around 280lbs, but can sprint down the basketball court faster than anyone else.

Anomalies like these crop up in all competitive sports.

It's not the same thing though to actually having a Y chromosome (which is what IBA claimed their testing showed) and competing in the female category, the differences between males and females are just too great, it's the whole reason why the sports are separated by sex in the first place. For me the issue is if these tests were accurate or were the tampered with/lied about by IBA. There seems to be no clarity around that

[The Slim Reaper]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

It's not the same thing though to actually having a Y chromosome (which is what IBA claimed their testing showed) and competing in the female category, the differences between males and females are just too great, it's the whole reason why the sports are separated by sex in the first place. For me the issue is if these tests were accurate or were the tampered with/lied about by IBA. There seems to be no clarity around that

Imane is not a male though. She has been cleared to fight by the Olympic committee, not pride.

Genetic advantages are genetic advantages. They may manifest in totally different variations, but they absolutely exist, and give one competitor a massive advantage over another. She has lost 9 fights - she does not have any kind of advantage. This happened because an Italian woman gave up, and because she was probably embarrassed went on the attack (pity she didn't do that in the ring, but hey), and was fortunate enough to have found solace in the arms of Joanne.

I don't want to see a man fighting women, and so it's good that it isn't happening.

[Glenn.]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

It's not the same thing though to actually having a Y chromosome (which is what IBA claimed their testing showed) and competing in the female category, the differences between males and females are just too great, it's the whole reason why the sports are separated by sex in the first place. For me the issue is if these tests were accurate or were the tampered with/lied about by IBA. There seems to be no clarity around that

Well I think the IBA are corrupt. I’ve read that they are not allowed any part of the Olympics.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by The Slim Reaper

Imane is not a male though. She has been cleared to fight by the Olympic committee, not pride.

Genetic advantages are genetic advantages. They may manifest in totally different variations, but they absolutely exist, and give one competitor a massive advantage over another. She has lost 9 fights - she does not have any kind of advantage. This happened because an Italian woman gave up, and because she was probably embarrassed went on the attack (pity she didn't do that in the ring, but hey), and was fortunate enough to have found solace in the arms of Joanne.

I don't want to see a man fighting women, and so it's good that it isn't happening.

There's no need for the sarcasm. It was IBA who claimed that both the fighters in question had the Y chromosome in that recent press conference. I'm not saying that it's true but one of the organisations here are wrong (or their testing is wrong), it could very well be IBA but it is also possible that its the IOC testing that's flawed. IBA also claim that neither fighter appealed the decisions when they were ruled out by the tests (actually Imane did originally but later withdrew the appeal)

[Liam-]

So now we just blindly believe a Russian corporation that had their olympics right stripped from them due to corruption do we? Where’s the evidence of these ‘gender tests’ ever taking place? Or the results?

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Glenn.

Well I think the IBA are corrupt. I’ve read that they are not allowed any part of the Olympics.

Quite possibly, but neither of these fighters appealed the decision at the time (Imane did but then withdrew the appeal).

[The Slim Reaper]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

There's no need for the sarcasm. It was IBA who claimed that both the fighters in question had the Y chromosome in that recent press conference. I'm not saying that it's true but one of the organisations here are wrong (or their testing is wrong), it could very well be IBA but it is also possible that its the IOC testing that's flawed. IBA also claim that neither fighter appealed the decisions when they were ruled out by the tests (actually Imane did originally but later withdrew the appeal)

Out of respect for you, I'll exit this conversation. .

[Ammi]

Claus Højbjerg Gravholt, a professor of genetic endocrinology, said it is impossible to state everyone with a Y chromosome is a male and everyone with an X chromosome is a female.

Professor Højbjerg Gravholt, who is based at Aarhus University in Denmark and works with patients who have differences in sex development, added: “If I showed you pictures of my patients without any clothes on, you would say, well, these are females that I'm looking at.

“But, in fact, they actually have a Y chromosome. And so it’s really coming back to, what is sex? Is sex something you can see out of the chromosomes? No, it’s not. Is sex something that you can see depending on which hormone, estrogen, or testosterone you preferentially produce? No, it’s not. Sex is much more complicated.”



…for me she’s definitely a female and I don’t know whether I’m completely off base in thinking in terms of ‘advantaged athlete’ and elevated testosterone levels but……ughhhhh, this is a contact sport and it would be careless and lacking in safety to consider there may be an advantage that would make for an ‘unfair fight’…I don’t know if that could be said or not with this case because I have been considering that she’s had losses as well and some really quite convincing ones…/…and that’s part of what makes this all so layered in confusion….

[The Slim Reaper]

Originally Posted by Ammi

Claus Højbjerg Gravholt, a professor of genetic endocrinology, said it is impossible to state everyone with a Y chromosome is a male and everyone with an X chromosome is a female.

Professor Højbjerg Gravholt, who is based at Aarhus University in Denmark and works with patients who have differences in sex development, added: “If I showed you pictures of my patients without any clothes on, you would say, well, these are females that I'm looking at.

“But, in fact, they actually have a Y chromosome. And so it’s really coming back to, what is sex? Is sex something you can see out of the chromosomes? No, it’s not. Is sex something that you can see depending on which hormone, estrogen, or testosterone you preferentially produce? No, it’s not. Sex is much more complicated.”



…for me she’s definitely a female and I don’t know whether I’m completely off base in thinking in terms of ‘advantaged athlete’ and elevated testosterone levels but……ughhhhh, this is a contact sport and it would be careless and lacking in safety to consider there may be an advantage that would make for an ‘unfair fight’…I don’t know if that could be said or not with this case because I have been considering that she’s had losses as well and some really quite convincing ones…/…and that’s part of what makes this all so layered in confusion….

Just in relation to testosterone - I'm not an expert, but we all have very different levels. Take Joe Rogan - looks like a shaved chimp. Stocky, and built like a bulldog. He's a really good fighter (he may even have a chance against sheriff. Maybe.), looks like a "real man" (apart from the height - no offence to the short kings out there), yet he has to dose himself up on testosterone because his levels are so low.

There is absolutely no one size fits all rule, when it comes to our T levels.

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by The Slim Reaper

Just in relation to testosterone - I'm not an expert, but we all have very different levels. Take Joe Rogan - looks like a shaved chimp. Stocky, and built like a bulldog. He's a really good fighter (he may even have a chance against sheriff. Maybe.), looks like a "real man" (apart from the height - no offence to the short kings out there), yet he has to dose himself up on testosterone because his levels are so low.

There is absolutely no one size fits all rule, when it comes to our T levels.

…yeah, I’m totally taking on board what you’re saying and I always feel that one size fits all rarely applies to things in general because we have to look at the specific differences and variations etc as well as the similarities that are being compared, you know…

…an elevated testerone level in females can be caused by varying things and polycystic ovary syndrome is quite a main one, I think…for example…I guess I’m also factoring in that testerone levels or ‘elevated’ testerone levels specifically in sport/competition have always had that strong link to performance enhancement drugs also, hence it all being monitored quite closely…but yeah, absolutely those levels do vary but the complication or confusion with Imane’s specific case as well has become a bit blurry by the thing that one sporting body did ban her from competing…yeah, possibly quite a dubious/corrupt sporting body but it still leaves that haze of thought…

[Quantum Boy]

Originally Posted by The Slim Reaper

Just in relation to testosterone - I'm not an expert, but we all have very different levels. Take Joe Rogan - looks like a shaved chimp. Stocky, and built like a bulldog. He's a really good fighter (he may even have a chance against sheriff. Maybe.), looks like a "real man" (apart from the height - no offence to the short kings out there), yet he has to dose himself up on testosterone because his levels are so low.

There is absolutely no one size fits all rule, when it comes to our T levels.

With Rogan that's more likely to be an age thing, I think it's unlikely he's always had low T. I'm also a touch skeptical that his natural levels are as low as he says - I'd be entirely unsurprised if he was just doing a bit of juicing. It's increasingly common even in local gyms, and even moreso stateside/with male celebrities. All of 'em are on TRT and most of them a little bit of anabolic steroids for some seasoning.

Much harder to build muscle with low testosterone and basically impossible to get "big"/jacked.

Overall strength/muscle and bone density are more to do with the process of male puberty though, than someone's current T levels. Which is why the idea that someone who transitioned post-puberty and went on hormone replacement will always have a biological advantage over females. Though they'll also no longer be able to compete with men. my honest thoughts are it just has to be part of the decision making process when considering hormonal transition, if interested in pro sports. It just takes it off the table. Unless they have a "trans league". But I don't think many people would be interested in that (understandably).

[Zizu]

Originally Posted by The Slim Reaper

Just in relation to testosterone - I'm not an expert, but we all have very different levels. Take Joe Rogan - looks like a shaved chimp. Stocky, and built like a bulldog. He's a really good fighter (he may even have a chance against sheriff. Maybe.), looks like a "real man" (apart from the height - no offence to the short kings out there), yet he has to dose himself up on testosterone because his levels are so low.

There is absolutely no one size fits all rule, when it comes to our T levels.

Crazy to think that Joe Rogan started off as a stand up comedian !!

Just can’t imagine him cracking jokes




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[Quantum Boy]

Originally Posted by Zizu

Crazy to think that Joe Rogan started off as a stand up comedian !!

Just can’t imagine him cracking jokes

He doesn't need to crack jokes these days, he just gets flat-earthers etc. onto his podcast. They are the joke.

[Mystic Mock]

Originally Posted by The Slim Reaper

The thing is, world class athletes pretty much all have these anomalies. Michael Phelps has double jointed ankles and his muscles produce only half the amount of lactic acid as his competitors, and loads of other things I can't remember or be bothered to look up, but there is zero controversy around him being the most successful winner of all time.

Lebron James is 6'9, around 280lbs, but can sprint down the basketball court faster than anyone else.

Anomalies like these crop up in all competitive sports.

The only difference is here is that we are talking about a combat Sport, where any huge Biological advantages could lead to the opponent getting seriously hurt under the wrong circumstances.

[Zizu]

Originally Posted by Soldier Boy

He doesn't need to crack jokes these days, he just gets flat-earthers etc. onto his podcast. They are the joke.

He was supposedly known for his quick wit !!!


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[The Slim Reaper]

Originally Posted by Mystic Mock

The only difference is here is that we are talking about a combat Sport, where any huge Biological advantages could lead to the opponent getting seriously hurt under the wrong circumstances.

It's two women fighting each other. No more needs to be said. Deontay Wilder is considered the hardest punching heavy weight in history, is that too much of an advantage, so that he should be banned?

She learned to box because she had to fight the boys in her village who all bullied her for her non-conformist appearance. Now, normally, that story in itself would illicit a reaction of solidarity from females in particular, but instead, some people may think the bullies didn't go far enough, it seems.

Maybe her advantage is really the fact she's been boxing boys from a very young age, and probably has at least 4/5 years of extra training on most other women, although that's a guess as I have no idea what age girls generally pick up the sport.

I just don't get where this is coming from. No other woman has cried about her, and even the Italian woman has come back out and apologised. Embarrassment can force people to act in really weird ways, and that shouldn't be pandered to imo.

[GiRTh]

Deontay Wilder is a good example. All he had was that one punch power. He has a more impressive KO records than Mike Tyson, so that power was real, but its all he had. In that respect he is like Khelif.

It looks like the Italian fighter bottled it so I'm not gonna be as harsh on Khelif as in the past.

[The Slim Reaper]

Originally Posted by GiRTh

Deontay Wilder is a good example. All he had was that one punch power. He has a more impressive KO records than Mike Tyson, so that power was real, but its all he had. In that respect he is like Khelif.

It looks like the Italian fighter bottled it so I'm not gonna be as harsh on Khelif as in the past.

[GiRTh]

She looked good today, but still not a fan.

[Zizu]

Originally Posted by GiRTh

She looked good today, but still not a fan.

I think ‘she’ is a dirty fighter .. not content with being stronger and easily able to take punches ‘she’ was manhandling her smaller opponent and even had her in a headlock at one point


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[Mystic Mock]

Originally Posted by The Slim Reaper

It's two women fighting each other. No more needs to be said. Deontay Wilder is considered the hardest punching heavy weight in history, is that too much of an advantage, so that he should be banned?

She learned to box because she had to fight the boys in her village who all bullied her for her non-conformist appearance. Now, normally, that story in itself would illicit a reaction of solidarity from females in particular, but instead, some people may think the bullies didn't go far enough, it seems.

Maybe her advantage is really the fact she's been boxing boys from a very young age, and probably has at least 4/5 years of extra training on most other women, although that's a guess as I have no idea what age girls generally pick up the sport.

I just don't get where this is coming from. No other woman has cried about her, and even the Italian woman has come back out and apologised. Embarrassment can force people to act in really weird ways, and that shouldn't be pandered to imo.

I would argue that Khelif is fighting in the wrong weight.

To use your example of Deontay Wilder, would you want him fighting a Welterweight? Because I wouldn't.

[The Slim Reaper]

Originally Posted by Mystic Mock

I would argue that Khelif is fighting in the wrong weight.

To use your example of Deontay Wilder, would you want him fighting a Welterweight? Because I wouldn't.

I can't be sure how the Olympics do their weight categories, but I'm 99.9% certain that weigh-ins would still be required. You don't get to rock up and just fight who you want. It's nonsensical and unbelievable.

Here is a pic of her after winning the following bout after the controversial one, against a Hungarian opponent.

They're the same size.

[The Slim Reaper]

I absolutely hate posting this, as I despise this paper with every fibre of my being, but if your bigotry is even too much for the sun...

[Mystic Mock]

Originally Posted by The Slim Reaper

I can't be sure how the Olympics do their weight categories, but I'm 99.9% certain that weigh-ins would still be required. You don't get to rock up and just fight who you want. It's nonsensical and unbelievable.

Here is a pic of her after winning the following bout after the controversial one, against a Hungarian opponent.

They're the same size.

If Khelif has the advantages that the IBA are claiming (which I know that we can't 100% trust the IBA) then Khelif would need to be moved up a weight imo, because most of the other women in the same weight class as Khelif will be disadvantaged.

However, if it turns out that the IBA have been lying about some of her test results (which I wouldn't put it past them) then I do feel really bad for Khelif.