[Insane_Spirit]

Originally posted by .Andy.
Freddie's own arrogance was the downfall off him

Do not put the blame on marcus he has stuck up for freddie numerous times

I agree, although I do feel Bea has been instrumental in his emotional downfall.

[quietman1963]

I think Bea only turned against Freddie after the Marcus fag-nicking incident. Marcus turned Freddie against Bea which caused her to hate Freddie so much. Marcus turned Freddie against Bea to deflect attention fom himself rather than to cause the other two to fall out.

The falling out meant Bea joining the 'other side'.

[jtalh2003]

Originally posted by BJ

I take on board the point you're making but I think Marcus did have a pretty good idea that there were points to be scored by having an argument with Bea. Remember, he made the point about the 4 million viewers and the sloppery slope right at the start of the discussion before it ever became an argument (I've said points a lot of times - sorry getting tired

i dont think you did take my point on because the point is marcus would be guessing you are not and i bet if you asked bea did she win i bet she would say yes to

and marcus had no idea off how people see him on the out side but bea did and was playing on the bully bit(sree)

and marcus had no idea how it would go if freddie joined in it could go bad it could go good so to tell him to go back to bed would definitely do freddie no damage and that is what marcus would be wanting going by your theroy

i just think you were shocked at the result and and started looking for reasons but it was already decided before that just look at polldaddy for one 6000 votes and and more wanted freddie out and that was before the argument

[charliegimbert]

Originally posted by BJ
Ultimately Freddie brought himself down by being too confident. Bea played a major part in his downfall and we've all seen it happening.

Now the controversial bit - I thin Marcus had a hand in Freddie's downfall.

I said a couple of days ago that I didn't believe Marcus wanted to go although he kept saying he did. Freddie should have trusted Siavash more. Marcus sewed a seed of doubt with Freddie and told him Siavash wasn't to be trusted. "Don't trust anyone in here - only me". This was done when Freddie was on a real low and he made the mistake of trusting Marcus totally. Marcus made himself Freddie's best and only friend in a similar way that he controlled Noirin

I also said, and still believe that on the night Marcus had the row with Bea he knew he was going to gain popularity. He told Freddie to go back to bed and not get involved because if Freddie had laid into Bea at that time he would have gained massive support. He trusted Marcus and went back to bed.


He trusted Marcus when he told him that Charlie wouldn't vote for him. Charlie has voted for Freddie every week as far as I can remember.

Marcus hugged Lisa last night. They dislike each other intensely but Lisa preferred Marcus to stay and they used each other.

Well played Marcus. Freddie made the mistake of putting too much trust in Bea and Marcus. He finished himself off by being too cocky.

[delta]

Or


He could have just believed that he was on his way out and he wanted to get across what he actually thought, sort of making his peace before he was evicted, with both Bea and Lisa.

Imagine if Marcus had thrown a hissy fit when Lisa was saying what he was like in the pool, the way that Marcus had offered back handed criticism to Bea.

I think that all these plots are way too Machiavellian for any of them, they are just resorting to what they know, and we are reading way too much into it, they only artificial interference is when BB sticks its size 10's in.

[charmingmissc]

Originally posted by delta
Or


He could have just believed that he was on his way out and he wanted to get across what he actually thought, sort of making his peace before he was evicted, with both Bea and Lisa.

Imagine if Marcus had thrown a hissy fit when Lisa was saying what he was like in the pool, the way that Marcus had offered back handed criticism to Bea.

I think that all these plots are way too Machiavellian for any of them, they are just resorting to what they know, and we are reading way too much into it, they only artificial interference is when BB sticks its size 10's in.

[ElProximo]

I will say it again:
Bea and Marcus 'argument' was NOT really an 'argument between Bea and Marcus'.
That was Bea masterfully ensuring Freddy's defeat.
Marcus was Beas tool.
I will agree with the OP in this sense - Marcus was a perfectly willing tool. He almost blew it several times (watch the entire episode to see a dozen fukktard things from meek Marcus),
but,
He was meek enough and played along even if he wasn't entirely sure how and why.
So yes, in that sense Marcus helped by being a proper tool for Bea to work.

Terry Christian has got this entire series spot-on over and over again and is entirely accurate last night:
Marcus is a manipulator and a sneak.

Watch Bea use Marcus like a tool again this week and watch Marcus be happy to do so. He doesn't need to know 'how' he is being used because that is for the Master Craftsman (Bea) to know,
but,
He will happily drill holes into Siavash as she guides him into it.

*someone did point out that while Rodrigo may not have been the next intended victim he did make the mistake of getting a bit to 'snoopy' and in Beas way... ...so she might have to switch priorities.

[delta]

Originally posted by ElProximo
I will say it again:
Bea and Marcus 'argument' was NOT really an 'argument between Bea and Marcus'.
That was Bea masterfully ensuring Freddy's defeat.
Marcus was Beas tool.
I will agree with the OP in this sense - Marcus was a perfectly willing tool. He almost blew it several times (watch the entire episode to see a dozen fukktard things from meek Marcus),
but,
He was meek enough and played along even if he wasn't entirely sure how and why.
So yes, in that sense Marcus helped by being a proper tool for Bea to work.

Terry Christian has got this entire series spot-on over and over again and is entirely accurate last night:
Marcus is a manipulator and a sneak.

Watch Bea use Marcus like a tool again this week and watch Marcus be happy to do so. He doesn't need to know 'how' he is being used because that is for the Master Craftsman (Bea) to know,
but,
He will happily drill holes into Siavash as she guides him into it.

*someone did point out that while Rodrigo may not have been the next intended victim he did make the mistake of getting a bit to 'snoopy' and in Beas way... ...so she might have to switch priorities.

You have been reading way too many novels mate.


Non of them are that clever in there.

But let the week play out and see if your theory is proven.


Imho, it's quantam maths in there, anything could and will happen. All they know it what they were on the outside and that's the way they are conducting themselves in the BB house.

[masonbason]

Originally posted by BJ
Ultimately Freddie brought himself down by being too confident. Bea played a major part in his downfall and we've all seen it happening.

Now the controversial bit - I thin Marcus had a hand in Freddie's downfall.

I said a couple of days ago that I didn't believe Marcus wanted to go although he kept saying he did. Freddie should have trusted Siavash more. Marcus sewed a seed of doubt with Freddie and told him Siavash wasn't to be trusted. "Don't trust anyone in here - only me". This was done when Freddie was on a real low and he made the mistake of trusting Marcus totally. Marcus made himself Freddie's best and only friend in a similar way that he controlled Noirin

I also said, and still believe that on the night Marcus had the row with Bea he knew he was going to gain popularity. He told Freddie to go back to bed and not get involved because if Freddie had laid into Bea at that time he would have gained massive support. He trusted Marcus and went back to bed.


He trusted Marcus when he told him that Charlie wouldn't vote for him. Charlie has voted for Freddie every week as far as I can remember.

Marcus hugged Lisa last night. They dislike each other intensely but Lisa preferred Marcus to stay and they used each other.

Well played Marcus. Freddie made the mistake of putting too much trust in Bea and Marcus. He finished himself off by being too cocky.

Exactly my thought, i posted the same thing. Marcus + channel 4 cause channel 4 should have booted out Marcus cause broke the rules so many times.

[delta]

Just to add, if Bea was that clever, she wouldn't have freaked out when Marcus told her that 4 million people would hate her.


This demonstrates it is not a 'game plan' and is just operating the way she only knows how.

All Lisa has done is temper her behavior, the real Lisa keeps rearing its ugly head every now and then.

[Linto99]

Originally posted by BJ
Ultimately Freddie brought himself down by being too confident. Bea played a major part in his downfall and we've all seen it happening.

Now the controversial bit - I thin Marcus had a hand in Freddie's downfall.

I said a couple of days ago that I didn't believe Marcus wanted to go although he kept saying he did. Freddie should have trusted Siavash more. Marcus sewed a seed of doubt with Freddie and told him Siavash wasn't to be trusted. "Don't trust anyone in here - only me". This was done when Freddie was on a real low and he made the mistake of trusting Marcus totally. Marcus made himself Freddie's best and only friend in a similar way that he controlled Noirin

I also said, and still believe that on the night Marcus had the row with Bea he knew he was going to gain popularity. He told Freddie to go back to bed and not get involved because if Freddie had laid into Bea at that time he would have gained massive support. He trusted Marcus and went back to bed.


He trusted Marcus when he told him that Charlie wouldn't vote for him. Charlie has voted for Freddie every week as far as I can remember.

Marcus hugged Lisa last night. They dislike each other intensely but Lisa preferred Marcus to stay and they used each other.

Well played Marcus. Freddie made the mistake of putting too much trust in Bea and Marcus. He finished himself off by being too cocky.

I agree with a lot of points you make. I also wondered about Marcus's request that Freddie go back to bed, even when he said it I thought ' Is this Marcus being tactical or just looking after his friend'

I do think though that ultimately Freddie's downfall was his cockiness about he was staying 100% and the fact he just could not deal with Queen Bea Biatch. If he had handled her properly then he would still be there, as people would have overlooked his cockiness - But like most people who are hurt by someone who they loved, He let his emotions get in the way and could not 'see the wood for the trees'

[seansmc]

Marcus considers Charlie a friend.Marcus often says Charlie, Freddie, Siavash are his friends.He just hasn't found Charlie out as a saccharine [Falsely sweet] character yet.As he considers Charlie a friend that is why he didn't beleive Charlie would nominate Freddie.

"Siavash wasn't to be trusted." Marcus never trusted Siavash, his friendship with Siavash was damaged after the whole Noirin saga.He felt Siavash betrayed his trust when he went with Noirin so hence he warns Freddie about Siavash.

Lisa is closest in age to Marcus then anyone else in the house, he feels comfortable having conversations with her as opposed to the youth in the house.Lisa and Marcus share the same similarity of looking hard on the outside but rwally been soft on the inside.Marcus showed a bit of affection giving her a hug which just signifies that Marcus realises it is a game show and in the real world they would find each other ok they only difference they have is by the way they approach the game.Marcus didn't join Lisa's crew he created his own path and therefore his path collides with Lisa's on the ultimate goal of making it to the final.
Every now and then Marcus and Lisa put their Game brains away and come together and talk as if its the real world.They then separate and go back into Game mode until the next time out.

Marcus told Freddie to go back to bed, that was the best decision.You have to be a fool if you can't see this.If Bea came out and Freddie was there the house would of erupted in arguments.Marcus saw the damaging effect these had on Freddie, he didn't want to see his friend hurt again or for a huge argument to take off.I also honestly do think that Marcus believed that the public vote would go against Freddie if he stayed and argued.

Marcus is genuine.He doesn't act in away to please the public or the other house mates.He chooses to be himself.
At this moment Marcus is the only one in the house without a game plan.Yes he definitely wants to win but at the same time he is fed up and part of him wants to leave.

[WOMBAI]

Originally posted by BJ
Ultimately Freddie brought himself down by being too confident. Bea played a major part in his downfall and we've all seen it happening.

Now the controversial bit - I thin Marcus had a hand in Freddie's downfall.

I said a couple of days ago that I didn't believe Marcus wanted to go although he kept saying he did. Freddie should have trusted Siavash more. Marcus sewed a seed of doubt with Freddie and told him Siavash wasn't to be trusted. "Don't trust anyone in here - only me". This was done when Freddie was on a real low and he made the mistake of trusting Marcus totally. Marcus made himself Freddie's best and only friend in a similar way that he controlled Noirin

I also said, and still believe that on the night Marcus had the row with Bea he knew he was going to gain popularity. He told Freddie to go back to bed and not get involved because if Freddie had laid into Bea at that time he would have gained massive support. He trusted Marcus and went back to bed.


He trusted Marcus when he told him that Charlie wouldn't vote for him. Charlie has voted for Freddie every week as far as I can remember.

Marcus hugged Lisa last night. They dislike each other intensely but Lisa preferred Marcus to stay and they used each other.

Well played Marcus. Freddie made the mistake of putting too much trust in Bea and Marcus. He finished himself off by being too cocky.

[Hedgie]

Marcus may have sown doubt into freddies mind with what he said, but let's not forget that Marcus feels betrayed by Siavash because Siavash made a play for Noirin, knowing how Marcus felt about her. Not exactly a matey thing to do, and is bound to make Marcus feel like Siavash cannot be trusted.
I don't think he did this to Freddie intentionally.

[WOMBAI]

Sorry - I do! No doubt in my mind!!