[setanta]

Originally Posted by Stu

Yes but stealing an album is not just stealing an album. I have already made this clear. Depends on such a large variety of factors.


I don't quiet think the word 'poorly' and the pockets of Jay-Z can co-exist in the same universe, but if it's bugging your conscious that much, don't do it.


That's not a point, it's a question. A question that has nothing to do with this argument. Try and argue the ethics of it from your own educated point of view without bringing legality into it.


Because I like to listen to full albums of artists work, then later buy the albums if I like them, like I already explained. Your old fashioned way does not suffice for all, sorry.


But alot of it is. Likewise, don't sugarcoat it all as being evil stealing, even after I continue to list to you the beneficial effects of file sharing you persist in ignoring my arguments seemingly to try and drag us all to the same moral guilt trip pedestal your on.

I'll tell you what I find ignorant Stu -your persistent ability to just dismantle other peoples comments and continually patronize in an attempt at self promotion. There's really no need it. Can't you just write your own comments without indulging in such gameplaying?

I've heard all your comments and I agree with many but the simple fact is we're still taking off artists for free and illegally with the majority of them never getting a cent from our pockets. You can't deny this.

[setanta]

Originally Posted by Princess

The old fashioned way is called vinyl....

Oh I love vinyl. Far better sound off it.

[InOne]

All The Smiths on vinyl. That is all I need. Also have a vinyl 7" Juke Box.

[MrGaryy]

Originally Posted by Princess

The old fashioned way is called vinyl....

clearly not in this context :P

and yeah InOne, I suppose it is, seems weird when you say it. Times are changing so rapidly.

[Stu]

Originally Posted by setanta

I'll tell you what I find ignorant Stu -your persistent ability to just dismantle other peoples comments and continually patronize in an attempt at self promotion. There's really no need it. Can't you just write your own comments without indulging in such gameplaying?

That's exactly what I am doing. I am arguing my points. In fact, my posts contain more arguments than yours do. Sure I have a snappy style I season it all with, but that's just me. You seem to be pretty paranoid of a lot around here that seems to me is all in your head. Gameplaying? That's one for the shits and giggles handbook, right there. You sound like a conspiracy loon.

Originally Posted by setanta

the simple fact is we're still taking off artists for free and illegally with the majority of them never getting a cent from our pockets. You can't deny this.

Actually yes, I can. If you paid any attention at all to my arguments, which may be why I am getting slightly frustrated, you will see that illegal downloading is driving a huge shift to ticket sales and independent promotion. That equates to quiet a bit of extra revenue. The real loosers here are the record companies. Sure many, many artists loose out, but the upswing more than makes up for it. Most downloaded artists are pretty loaded anyway. Oh and again that's not to mention the artists who would never have had record deals in the FIRST place if it were not for illegal downlading. I made that point more than once already.

You make illegal downloading sound like a bad thing, but it's not. It has bad elements, but there are a whole slew of good elements which I have spent more than enough time and patience listing for you. Good elements and bad elements. Just like everything else.

[setanta]

Originally Posted by Stu

That's exactly what I am doing. I am arguing my points. In fact, my posts contain more arguments than yours do. Sure I have a snappy style I season it all with, but that's just me. You seem to be pretty paranoid of a lot around here that seems to me is all in your head. Gameplaying? That's one for the shits and giggles handbook, right there. You sound like a conspiracy loon.


Actually yes, I can. If you paid any attention at all to my arguments, which may be why I am getting slightly frustrated, you will see that illegal downloading is driving a huge shift to ticket sales and independent promotion. That equates to quiet a bit of extra revenue. The real loosers here are the record companies. Sure many, many artists loose out, but the upswing more than makes up for it. Most downloaded artists are pretty loaded anyway. Oh and again that's not to mention the artists who would never have had record deals in the FIRST place if it were not for illegal downlading. I made that point more than once already.

You make illegal downloading sound like a bad thing, but it's not. It has bad elements, but there are a whole slew of good elements which I have spent more than enough time and patience listing for you. Good elements and bad elements. Just like everything else.

Yep, I have a problem with your approach to discussions to be honest with you, when by and large they consist of a slightly ridiculing and sardonic tone with a propensity for cutting and pasting at will which highlights a reactionary and possibly egotistical individual. There's simply no need for it.

It's still illegal to download for free and I'd imagine the vast majority of people don't decide to buy originals afterwards. I love seeing the big man get hit hard but still, there's going to be many casulties on the other end of things too.

[Stu]

Originally Posted by setanta

Yep, I have a problem with your approach to discussions to be honest with you, when by and large they consist of a slightly ridiculing and sardonic tone with a propensity for cutting and pasting at will which highlights a reactionary and possibly egotistical individual. There's simply no need for it.

Sardonic tone? I'm Stu, pleased to meet you. I make points with a sarcastic edge, absolutely, but so do others, and we all have fun with it. Those of us with a stable mind, at least.

Cutting and pasting at will? It makes it easier for both me to argue and for the reader to read. A point with a counterpoint. Beats a whole wall of text. There is nothing else behind it apart from that.People can still view your original posts, I just copy an argument and reply to it. Simple. That equates to me being egotistical? Thanks for your amateur psychological interpretation of my keyboard skills. Want mine? Your paranoid.

For clarification :

Your original argument that I was responding to was that, in your mind, stealing from an artist is stealing from an artist, end of story. I already made my view on this quiet clear by explaining just how many variables are behind the situation. Artists wealth, album quality, artists input, exposure, you name it. Stealing an album produced by an overpaid diva with ghost written songs and a large record corporation distribution and advertising network is absolutely not the same thing as stealing an album from a struggling artist on an independent label with minor distribution.

It's just not in the same league. In the eyes of the law it might be the same but in the eyes of rational ethics and common sense? Hell no.

[Tom4784]

I can't stand watching TV shows or films on my PC so I always wait for it to air on Brittish TV or buy it on DVD/ Go to cinemas. I get most of my games from a friend's game shop because I get a discount and he does Imports.

I prefer CDs to downloading as I like to have a product in my hands really as legal downloads can be so easily lost. If I'm iffy about an artist though I might download their album for a listen and If I like it I'll buy it, If I don't I'll delete it.

I don't have any qualms for people who do download though like Stu says there's a fair few positives to the practice.

[setanta]

Originally Posted by Stu

Sardonic tone? I'm Stu, pleased to meet you. I make points with a sarcastic edge, absolutely, but so do others, and we all have fun with it. Those of us with a stable mind, at least.

Cutting and pasting at will? It makes it easier for both me to argue and for the reader to read. A point with a counterpoint. Beats a whole wall of text. There is nothing else behind it apart from that.People can still view your original posts, I just copy an argument and reply to it. Simple. That equates to me being egotistical? Thanks for your amateur psychological interpretation of my keyboard skills. Want mine? Your paranoid.

For clarification :

Your original argument that I was responding to was that, in your mind, stealing from an artist is stealing from an artist, end of story. I already made my view on this quiet clear by explaining just how many variables are behind the situation. Artists wealth, album quality, artists input, exposure, you name it. Stealing an album produced by an overpaid diva with ghost written songs and a large record corporation distribution and advertising network is absolutely not the same thing as stealing an album from a struggling artist on an independent label with minor distribution.

It's just not in the same league. In the eyes of the law it might be the same but in the eyes of rational ethics and common sense? Hell no.

Nope, not paranoid, just don't enjoy seeing my thoughts dismantled for your benefit and not my own. This is our conversation and I would like to think that I have the ability and intelligence to traverse a "wall of text" without your guidance.

Of course there's pros and cons in everything in life but in this case it's still grabbing someone elses thoughts, inspiration and creativity for free and it can leave me feeling slightly cold and ashamed, that's all.

[Stu]

Originally Posted by setanta

Nope, not paranoid, just don't enjoy seeing my thoughts dismantled for your benefit and not my own.

Might I suggest not getting involved in such debates in the future then. Not patronisation, but friendly advice. Taking apart and scrutinizing another's post is ... kind of the point.

Originally Posted by setanta

This is our conversation and I would like to think that I have the ability and intelligence to traverse a "wall of text" without your guidance.

Good for you, but I still find it much easier to make points this way. There is nothing pleasurable or sinister to it, it's just the way I conduct my business. The fact that you took it upon yourself to twist it in a slightly more ominous, manipulative light is your own crazy onus, but each to there own.

Originally Posted by setanta

in this case it's still grabbing someone elses thoughts, inspiration and creativity for free and it can leave me feeling slightly cold and ashamed, that's all.

Really? It's my opinion that thought and inspiration should not necessarily come with a price tag. And again I might allude you to the fact that many of these artists would not have even been able to put said thought and said inspiration to disc if it were not for filesharing. And also, if I were an artist I would be delighted for all these additional people to receive my thoughts and inspiration, free of charge.

Of course there are the bad points, but that's part of the parcel of my argument. Merely illuminating the shades of grey that exist in the world of filesharing and pointing out the benefits.

[setanta]

Originally Posted by Stu

Might I suggest not getting involved in such debates in the future then. Not patronisation, but friendly advice. Taking apart and scrutinizing another's post is ... kind of the point.


Good for you, but I still find it much easier to make points this way. There is nothing pleasurable or sinister to it, it's just the way I conduct my business. The fact that you took it upon yourself to twist it in a slightly more ominous, manipulative light is your own crazy onus, but each to there own.


Really? It's my opinion that thought and inspiration should not necessarily come with a price tag. And again I might allude you to the fact that many of these artists would not have even been able to put said thought and said inspiration to disc if it were not for filesharing. And also, if I were an artist I would be delighted for all these additional people to receive my thoughts and inspiration, free of charge.

Of course there are the bad points, but that's part of the parcel of my argument. Merely illuminating the shades of grey that exist in the world of filesharing and pointing out the benefits.

Nah, you have a patronising and condescending tone to your arguments that isn't terribly agreeable to me, and the very fact that cutting and pasting takes time reinforces my argument that it's something that you take great delight in doing. And the thing that puzzles me is that you yourself have said there's not alot in my comments that merits scrutiny so why hew it asunder if only to satisfy something else within you?

[Twilight]

I do it all the time with albums and movies.

[Captain.Remy]

Originally Posted by BBUK4LYFE

That's not that bad actually. In other countries you can get fined thousand of dollars plus jail time.

Well, I forgot to explain that if you get caught once, they send you an e-mail then you must not download for 3 months. If you still download within the 3 months, you receive a letter, you must not download for a year.
If you get caught within the year, you go to the court, get your internet connection cut off AND depending on the amount of downloads, you get fines + jail time.

[Captain.Remy]

Originally Posted by MrGaryy

Yeah cos Ugly Betty is real quality TV.

Yeah it's amazing.

[Stu]

Wow. So he ignores all my individual points which explain myself yet again. Maybe that's why he decided to spin a failing debate into a more personal angle.

Originally Posted by setanta

and the very fact that cutting and pasting takes time reinforces my argument that it's something that you take great delight in doing.

Even though I already explained to you how it actually saves me time? Christ, this is getting ridiculous now. Your like a big child making assumptions in your own little fantasy paranoia zone. Grow up and take the way I argue my points or don't bother wasting my time at all at all, alright?

You get into discussions but you don't want your posts dissected? What are you looking for, a [evil]cuddle and a rubdown?[/evil] Might I suggest a daily dose of not taking an internet forum seriously. It works wonders for most of us, who are much younger than you and manage to take sardonic wordplay as part of the routine here. Not that I consider 'moral guilt trip pedestal' to be sarcasm or patronisation. Just exactly the way I felt about your arguments.

I don't agree or disagree the only song i downloaded Illegaly was Down and that was because it took 5months to come here and when it did i bought it off Amazon mp3 downloads as i usaully do.

Life In The Rich City.

[setanta]

Originally Posted by Stu

Wow. So he ignores all my individual points which explain myself yet again. Maybe that's why he decided to spin a failing debate into a more personal angle.


Even though I already explained to you how it actually saves me time? Christ, this is getting ridiculous now. Your like a big child making assumptions in your own little fantasy paranoia zone. Grow up and take the way I argue my points or don't bother wasting my time at all at all, alright?

You get into discussions but you don't want your posts dissected? What are you looking for, a [evil]cuddle and a rubdown?[/evil] Might I suggest a daily dose of not taking an internet forum seriously. It works wonders for most of us, who are much younger than you and manage to take sardonic wordplay as part of the routine here. Not that I consider 'moral guilt trip pedestal' to be sarcasm or patronisation. Just exactly the way I felt about your arguments.

I've been grown up about things here - just asking questions on why you choose to respond to me at all and on the methods you choose to respond with, which I believe is fair considering that you have such disdain for my answers in the first place. You enjoy it a little too much my friend.

And as for your excuses for stealing other peoples creativity, no, I still don't accept them because we're quickly turning into a society that believes it's normal to get music for nothing - with the quick click of a button you access everything and sure isn't that what this thread is all about.... illegal downloading?

Exposure for the smaller bands is all well and good, but not when people are downloading their tracks for absolutely nothing, thereby denying them the money that's essential for their survival as artists. I could point out to some bands on independent labels who have pleaded with their fans on their sleeve notes not to copy or download because they believe it's killing the smaller people in the business as much as it is the big moguls.... remember the guys that have been at the centre of many of your arguments?

We're setting a trend now with illegal downloads that will be followed on by others and it's ultimately going to be damaging for many artists and for music in general.

[Stu]

Originally Posted by setanta

I've been grown up about things here - just asking questions on why you choose to respond to me at all and on the methods you choose to respond with, which I believe is fair considering that you have such disdain for my answers in the first place. You enjoy it a little too much my friend.

Why I choose to respond to you at all? This is a debate, I was assuming. Like I already said. The idea is to respond with counterpoints.

The methods I choose to respond with? Perfectly fine by me and by most other people on the forum with the ability to not take it so seriously. Like I already said. Perhaps you would like to quote pieces of my arguments you have found to contain untold evil.

Such a disdain for your answers? Again, this is a debate. I was assuming, like I already said already said back that time when I already said it, you seem to be missing the point here. A lot.

Enjoying it too much? That's not for you to say. I already explained to you countless times why I chop up quotes and respond to them individually. Your solution to this, like a child, is to block your ears, close your eyes, and convince yourself I am getting some perverse pleasure out of it, whilst it is merely my method of posting. I have a 32" HDTV. I have a right hand and a hungry dick. I don't need to speak to you for kicks.

Again, if you want to twist things to such a sinister, menacing angle, that's your choice.

Originally Posted by setanta

And as for your excuses for stealing other peoples creativity, no, I still don't accept them because we're quickly turning into a society that believes it's normal to get music for nothing - with the quick click of a button you access everything and sure isn't that what this thread is all about.... illegal downloading?

It's better than a society that considers it normal to plop down twenty quid for the same tired pop rehashes. Record prices will eventually drop. In fact, they are already dropping. This equation will balance itself out.

Originally Posted by Setanta

Exposure for the smaller bands is all well and good, but not when people are downloading their tracks for absolutely nothing, thereby denying them the money that's essential for their survival as artists. I could point out to some bands on independent labels who have pleaded with their fans on their sleeve notes not to copy or download because they believe it's killing the smaller people in the business as much as it is the big moguls.... remember the guys that have been at the centre of many of your arguments?

I have already refuted this point countless times by explaining to you how many artists would not have had a record deal never mind a record sale in the first place if it were not for us downloading for free. Are my denying some small artists are loosing out? No. So your essentially arguing a tired point with a wall.

Originally Posted by Setanta

We're setting a trend now with illegal downloads that will be followed on by others and it's ultimately going to be damaging for many artists and for music in general.

Despite the countless positive benefits I have pointed out to you? I am not denying it damages the industry but overall do I think it's damaging to music? Hell no. See I am willing to expand my horizons to factor in both the good and bad here.

Quick hint : It's not.

[setanta]

Originally Posted by Stu

It's better than a society that considers it normal to plop down twenty quid for the same tired pop rehashes. Record prices will eventually drop. In fact, they are already dropping. This equation will balance itself out. .

This is the same argument you've been rehashing endlessly. What will it balance out to when we're downloading for nothing? This thread is about illegal downloading for free.... nothing is going into the hands of the artists and I've stated already that some smaller bands are trying to pursuade their fans to buy rather than copy. When you put no price on music it becomes valueless, particularly in a society like ours.

Originally Posted by Stu

I have already refuted this point countless times by explaining to you how many artists would not have had a record deal never mind a record sale in the first place if it were not for us downloading for free. Are my denying some small artists are loosing out? No. So your essentially arguing a tired point with a wall.

Like I said before, we're creating a society that chooses not to put a value on music or creativity. We'll lose out eventually, with smaller bands disappearing while big moguls will still be here. They're not going away Stu, no matter how much you'd like to think that you're doing this for music and freedom.

Originally Posted by Stu

Despite the countless positive benefits I have pointed out to you? I am not denying it damages the industry but overall do I think it's damaging to music? Hell no. See I am willing to expand my horizons to factor in both the good and bad here.

Quick hint : It's not.

It is and it will damage it more and more if we download for nothing. It's stealing, no matter what way you look at it.

[Stu]

Smaller bands disappearing when big moguls will still be here? This decade saw the rise of more homegrown bedroom talent than ever, and it was all down to the internet. That is a fact.

Big record labels are fast running out of business. That is another fact.

So no, smaller bands are not going anywhere and yes, big moguls are going the way of the dodo.

Big record companies are going the way of the dinosaur. They're unnecessary middlemen and to be fair, it's their own greed and incompetence that has dug the hole even deeper. They fucked over both the artists and the punters for generations. Good fucking riddance. People will still make good music and people will still respond to it.

Illegal downloading is damaging music but overall I believe the positives will outweigh the negatives in time. It's far easier to argue a point when you have facts on your side.

[Enid]

I just want to say that this is the information age, and there will always be ways to get this information for FREE. Whether that be music, documents, programs, education, films and games. Those that have discovered these ways are not thieves. We're opportunists. If I know I can get away with it, I will have it.

Sharing is caring.

[setanta]

You're still not talking about the illegal aspect of downloading for free Stu. I agree that the internet affords smaller, more independent bands the opportunity to gain a following or to gain some exposure but you're neglecting to comment on the illegality behind free downloading and how much it can really hurt these bands trying to eek out an existence.

For every band that's made it huge I'm sure there's dozens and dozens who've said "f£ck it" and decided to get full time jobs rather than watch their blood sweat and tears being accessed and downloaded for nothing on the net. And this will not get any better if we all decide to embrace illegal downloading and accept it as part of the norm.

You really think the big boys are going to disappear? I doubt it, particularly when we're in an age of mass media.... tv, radio, film you name it. They've got it all sewn up and losing out on cd sales isn't really going to put that big a dent in their pockets.

[Stu]

Originally Posted by setanta

you're neglecting to comment on the illegality behind free downloading and how much it can really hurt these bands trying to eek out and existence.

No I am not. You just need to read more carefully. I already acknowledged the damage being done. As for the illegal aspect of it ... what is there to debate? It is illegal. People break the law by doing it. And?

Originally Posted by setanta

For every band that's made it huge I'm sure there's dozens and dozens who've said "f£ck it" and decided to get full time jobs rather than watch their blood sweat and tears being accessed and downloaded for nothing on the net. And this will not get any better if we all decide to embrace illegal downloading and accept it as part of the norm.

And vice versa. There is no point really in arguing this. Like I said, I already have acknowledged the pros and cons. And I believe the pro's outweigh the cons. Quiet extraordinarily, in fact.

Originally Posted by setanta

You really think the big boys are going to disappear? I doubt it, particularly when we're in an age of mass media.... tv, radio, film you name it. They've got it all sewn up and losing out on cd sales isn't really going to put that big a dent in their pockets.

They are certainly playing less of a role already, and there unnecessary roles will continue to drop ever further in the future. You mention mass media : What's the driving force behind virtually all mass media today? The hub? The internet. The internet is a nightmare for these guys. It's an entirely free market and it's entirely user driven.

Loosing out on CD sales is not putting a big dent in there pockets? Was that a little in joke or a serious point? Holy fucking ****. These guys are taking an absolute hammering financially, and more and more artists are choosing the independent route. It's been a nightmare of a decade for big labels.

[setanta]

I don't agree. They're taking a hammering in cds maybe, but what about dvd sales and tv/radio spots and touring? These guys have their fingers in many, many pies.

And yes, we're breaking the law by trying to make it acceptability when it's clearly not. I don't care about the big boys, I care about the smaller lads who are trying to earn a crust. And stealing is stealing, whether it's from Tescos or your local grocery shop. You decide to embrace it and we'll lose out on many interesting artists.

[Niamh.]

I'd say ye will have to agree to disagree on this one Setanta & Stu!!