[NettoSuperstar!]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

more people have died because of man's need for power and approbation.

Religion among many other things has been used to justify acts of aggression through the ages.

For once I kinda agree, its mans obsession with power and constant need to belong to a group and distinguish themselves from others thats at the root of all the destruction (and a heavy dose of testosterone and hatred), its a viscious circle. But it is the creation of religion also that is part of that but not the spiritual thought behind it.

[NettoSuperstar!]

Originally Posted by InOne

Do you believe religion deserves respect?

No I believe the spiritual thought behind it and people deserve respect...and who are you or I or anyone to tell them whats right or wrong? We ALL no **** all

[InOne]

Originally Posted by NettoSuperstar!

No I believe the spiritual thought behind it and people deserve respect...and who are you or I or anyone to tell them whats right or wrong? We ALL no **** all

It's not about right or wrong. It's about the Burka and what is stands for. It is a sign of opression of a once Taliban dominated country. Women don't need them over here. Yes they have a choice and all that but why? Hijab is fine, Burka poses all sorts of questions and usually causes disruption with security threats and that.

[NettoSuperstar!]

Originally Posted by InOne

It's not about right or wrong. It's about the Burka and what is stands for. It is a sign of opression of a once Taliban dominated country. Women don't need them over here. Yes they have a choice and all that but why? Hijab is fine, Burka poses all sorts of questions and usually causes disruption with security threats and that.

Well lets put it in perspective. How disruptive is it really? on some occasions its not appropriate, ie checking in at an airport, in some work settings...most woment that wear them are probably aware of that. But the key is, a percieved "other" group enforcing their will on another group is not going to help anyone particularly not the women that are forced to wear them. Its a well researched fact.

[InOne]

Originally Posted by NettoSuperstar!

Well lets put it in perspective. How disruptive is it really? on some occasions its not appropriate, ie checking in at an airport, in some work settings...most woment that wear them are probably aware of that. But the key is, a percieved "other" group enforcing their will on another group is not going to help anyone particularly not the women that are forced to wear them. Its a well researched fact.

I know, but it might give them more of a voice to speak out to do so. Also, it's not really that nice to look at, there are often communication problems. It is really not needed. Yes they have a choice, but they could give a little bit of courtesy our way too.

[WOMBAI]

Originally Posted by NettoSuperstar!

Well lets put it in perspective. How disruptive is it really, on some occasions its not appropriate, ie checking in at an airport, in some work settings...most woment that wear them are probably aware of that. But the key is, a percieved "other" group enforcing their will on another group is not going to help anyone particularly not the women that are forced to wear them. Its a well researched fact.

Whose perspective - yours or mine! Again very subjective!

As this is Britian - and the wearing of such a garment contradicts the values of British culture - why should it be allowed! Many would find it offensive.

And the security issue is of paramount importance - bearing in mind we are living in such delicate and sensitive times. You can't deny that the burka could hide a multitude of sins - and it could be used as a weapon against us. And that is not pie in the sky - that is a very plausible and very real possibility.

[Wildcat!]

Originally Posted by WOMBAI

Whose perspective - yours or mine! Again very subjective!

As this is Britian - and the wearing of such a garment contradicts the values of British culture - why should it be allowed! Many would find it offensive.

And the security issue is of paramount importance - bearing in mind we are living in such delicate and sensitive times. You can't deny that the burka could hide a multitude of sins - and it could be used as a weapon against us. And that is not pie in the sky - that is a very plausible and very real possibility.

I didnt even want to get into this debate again, but some of the posts on here are unbelievable.

British culture what? Look here, I completely agree with things like Burka, not allowed in a place where you need to be identified, like school, or others, but to say they should be banned, thats unbelievably intolerant. How does that make you any different than any oppressive regime?

What is british culture? Is there a certain way youre supposed to dress in the British culture? HOw the heck does wearing such garment contradict British culture? Do women who cover themselves with Hijabs also contradict the culture? PLease. If people decide to wear Burka, thats their choice.

And Burka could hide a multitude of sins? WTF? What sins? How hypocritical can you get?

[WOMBAI]

Originally Posted by Wildcat!

I didnt even want to get into this debate again, but some of the posts on here are unbelievable.

British culture what? Look here, I completely agree with things like Burka, not allowed in a place where you need to be identified, like school, or others, but to say they should be banned, thats unbelievably intolerant. How does that make you any different than any oppressive regime?

What is british culture? Is there a certain way youre supposed to dress in the British culture? HOw the heck does wearing such garment contradict British culture? Do women who cover themselves with Hijabs also contradict the culture? PLease. If people decide to wear Burka, thats their choice.

And Burka could hide a multitude of sins? WTF? What sins? How hypocritical can you get?

How is that hypocritical. I don't dress in a way that impedes identification or that represents oppression. It is not the covering of the body - it is the covering of the face - one's identity - that causes concern. The whole point of the burka is so that we cannot see who is underneath it. Anyone could use a burka to obtain entry to a school or some other building like the twin towers for sinister reasons. Something like that may have seemed far fetched once - but not any more. We have threats of terrorism hanging over us every day - are you really saying there is no way a burka could be used to disguise a terrorist.

And for many British women (who by the way make up more than 50% of the population) the burka represents the oppression of women. That goes against our culture and beliefs. We cannot be seen to condone it - neither should we want to.

[NettoSuperstar!]

whoooooosh...thats the sound of sense and reason whizzing by! lol

[Wildcat!]

Originally Posted by WOMBAI

How is that hypocritical. I don't dress in a way that impedes identification or that represents oppression. It is not the covering of the body - it is the covering of the face - one's identity - that causes concern. The whole point of the burka is so that we cannot see who is underneath it. Anyone could use a burka to obtain entry to a school or some other building like the twin towers for sinister reasons. Something like that may have seemed far fetched once - but not any more. We have threats of terrorism hanging over us every day - are you really saying there is no way a burka could be used to disguise a terrorist.

And for many British women (who by the way make up more than 50% of the population) the burka represents the oppression of women. That goes against our culture and beliefs. We cannot be seen to condone it - neither should we want to.

If its that, then ban anyone who is covered from head to toe, including people wearing hoodies, hijabs, and everything similar. Dig deep into your logical sense and think: How often do terrorists conceal their identity? (ermm almost never). YOu know why? because most of them kill themselves. MOst of them want to be seen for their causes. They dont hide their faces, thats just a cop out. Anyone can be a terrorist regardless of how they are dressed.


And sorry, but most muslims in this country, do not wear the Burka, those who do, choose to do so. Its not a symbol of oppression, thats absolutely ridiculous. Just like any religion, there are always those who take it a lot more seriously than others, and these days, its usually the minority. I am sure you know people who are extremely religious compared to the majority. Thats the people you see wearing Burkas in the western world. Just because some people dont want to conform to the western dress code, they are automatically oppressed! You seem obssessed with this notion of women being oppressed, if they dont do what you do! Just like the chastity rings, that are now popular among American teenagers, you somehow turned it into a women oppressed issue as well. NEwsflash, there are as many men and women who wear them.

I think a lot of you people should look yourself in the mirror, and check your prejudices. Like I said early in this thread, I dont think Burka should be allowed in certain places, but in no way should be banned. This starts, and pretty soon siks are gonna be asked to shave their beard, and not wear their traditional clothes.

[WOMBAI]

Originally Posted by Wildcat!

If its that, then ban anyone who is covered from head to toe, including people wearing hoodies, hijabs, and everything similar. How often do terrorists conceal their identity? MOst of them want to be seen for their causes. They dont hide their faces, thats just a cop out. Anyone can be a terrorist regardless of how they are dressed.


And sorry, but most muslims in this country, do not wear the Burka, those who do, choose to do so. Its not a symboly of oppression, thats absolutely ridiculous. Just because some people dont want to conform to the western dress code, they are automatically oppressed! You seem obsessed with this notion of women being oppressed, if they dont do what you do! Just like the chastily rings, that are now popular among American teenagers, you somehow turned it into a women oppressed issue as well.

I think a lot of you people should look yourself in the mirror, and check your prejudices. Like I said early in this thread, I dont think Burka should be allowed in certain places, but in no way should be banned.

The burka is the only item of clothing I object to, not hijabs, for the reasons already mentioned. I already said it is about the covering of the face. And a lot of people have condemned the wearing of hoodies - as they also can hide a person's face - but not as much as a burka.

Not all those that wear a burka choose to - it is an accepted fact that some, at least, are pressured, if not forced to wear it. That is the main reason why it is so controversial. You sound like you are coming from the perspective of a man - who refuses to acknowledge that that goes on.

I cannot believe you actually said that terroists rarely cover their faces. On the news, in documentaries they nearly always have their faces covered - they don't want to be identified. It has always annoyed me as it shows them for the cowards they are - if you believe in your cause - you don't hide your face.

[*mazedsalv**]

YES BAN THEM!!

The other week i saw a woman beside us sitting in her car driving with it on... how is that safe?? With it on, you cant see sideways, so it is generally making it very dangerous for her and others. You can only see directly, so what if a car is coming at the side but she cant see?

Okay i dont really see many people driving with their hoods up, but even so, hoodies only cover the head, people wearing hoodies can still see through their side view mirrors... people with the burka's cant.

[Wildcat!]

Originally Posted by WOMBAI

The burka is the only item of clothing I object to, not hijabs, for the reasons already mentioned. I already said it is about the covering of the face. And a lot of people have condemned the wearing of hoodies - as they also can hide a person's face - but not as much as a burka.

Not all those that wear a burka choose to - it is an accepted fact that some, at least, are pressured, if not forced to wear it. That is the main reason why it is so controversial. You sound like you are coming from the perspective of a man - who refuses to acknowledge that that goes on.

I cannot believe you actually said that terroists rarely cover their faces. On the news, in documentaries they nearly always have their faces covered - they don't want to be identified. It has always annoyed me as it shows them for the cowards they are - if you believe in your cause - you don't hide your face.

Thats BS!! Those who cover their faces, are the same as bank robbers, or hostage takers who cover their face, and sorry, but I have yet to see, a terrorist, bank robber, etc... wearing a Burkha.
Those you see on the news with their faces covered, are the hostage takers who send tapes to the media, with messages. OF course their faces are gonna be covered.
In this case, with your argument, its about terrorists walking into a buliding to do some damage of a sort. Those people dont cover themselves. And the reason why you dont see them in the press, is because they are usually dead.

And once again, most people who do wear the Burkha, choose to do so, they arent forced.

[Wildcat!]

Originally Posted by *mazedsalv**

YES BAN THEM!!

The other week i saw a woman beside us sitting in her car driving with it on... how is that safe?? With it on, you cant see sideways, so it is generally making it very dangerous for her and others. You can only see directly, so what if a car is coming at the side but she cant see?

Okay i dont really see many people driving with their hoods up, but even so, hoodies only cover the head, people wearing hoodies can still see through their side view mirrors... people with the burka's cant.

LMAO!!!! Are you kidding me with this? Look at the picture from the OP, they have perfect peripheral vision! Someone wearing a hoodie does not!!! Put one on right now, and see how your peripheral vision is. The Burkha has no interference in your vision whatsoever. How ridiculous!!


YOu think someone dressed like this, has a better peripheral vision than the picture in the OP???
Use some common sense for gods sakes.

[WOMBAI]

Originally Posted by Wildcat!

Thats BS!! Those who cover their faces, are the same as bank robbers, or hostage takers who cover their face, and sorry, but I have yet to see, a terrorist, bank robber, etc... wearing a Burkha.
Those you see on the news with their faces covered, are the hostage takers who send tapes to the media, with messages. OF course their faces are gonna be covered.
In this case, with your argument, its about terrorists walking into a buliding to do some damage of a sort. Those people dont cover themselves. And the reason why you dont see them in the press, is because they are usually dead.

And once again, most people who do wear the Burkha, choose to do so, they arent forced.

If just one woman in this country is wearing it against her will - it is unacceptable. As a country we cannot condone it.

You can't tell if it is a man or a woman under that thing. Could be either. A man could pose as a woman knowing that people would probably be reluctant to manhandle or search a 'Muslim' woman. Perfectly feasible. Not to mention there are many female terrorists/sympathisers - or are you going to deny that one as well.

[Wildcat!]

Originally Posted by WOMBAI

If just one woman in this country is wearing it against her will - it is unacceptable. As a country we cannot condone it.

You can't tell if it is a man or a woman under that thing. Could be either. A man could pose as a woman knowing that people would probably be reluctant to manhandle or search a 'Muslim' woman. Perfectly feasible. Not to mention there are many female terrorists/sympathisers - or are you going to deny that one as well.

Then lets also ban the Jewish Kid who is forced to wear those Jewish clothing, and shave their heads. And the Sikh who is asked to wear the Sikh uniform. Its the danger that you run into, if you try to do these kinds of things. You cant make a big deal out of exceptions. There are people who wear things that they dont want to, all the time. Even regular kids, and teenagers, everyday are forced to dress a certain way by their parents. Its very telling that its the muslim who is always scrutinized.

As for it could be anyone under there, because they dont want to be manhandled? WHat a ridiculous argument that is! SO cross dressing should be illegal then shouldnt it? For crying out loud!

[WOMBAI]

Originally Posted by Wildcat!

Then lets also ban the Jewish Kid who is forced to wear those Jewish clothing, and shave their heads. And the Sikh who is asked to wear the Sikh uniform. Its the danger that you run into, if you try to do these kinds of things. You cant make a big deal out of exceptions. There are people who wear things that they dont want to, all the time. Even regular kids, and teenagers, everyday are forced to dress a certain way by their parents. Its very telling that its the muslim who is always scrutinized.

As for it could be anyone under there, because they dont want to be manhandled? WHat a ridiculous argument that is! SO cross dressing should be illegal then shouldnt it? For crying out loud!

Yes - that is true - but it is the reason behind it that makes this more objectionable and more sinister than the others. It is about the woman being viewed as some man's property - as a person without an identity of her own. There is no doubting that the Muslim religion is oppressive towards women and the burka is a very visible symbol of that.

And it could be anyone under there! How can you deny that. There is no way of telling - unless you remove the robe - and many would be reluctant to remove the robe of what might be a genuine Muslim woman - knowing the offence that would cause. Do you honestly think no terrorist would play on that one!

[Wildcat!]

Originally Posted by WOMBAI

Yes - that is true - but it is the reason behind it that makes this more objectionable and more sinister than the others. It is about the woman being viewed as some man's property - as a person without an identity of her own. There is no doubting that the Muslim religion is oppressive towards women and the burka is a very visible symbol of that.

And it could be anyone under there! How can you deny that. There is no way of telling - unless you remove the robe - and many would be reluctant to remove the robe of what might be a genuine Muslim woman - knowing the offence that would cause. Do you honestly think no terrorist would play on that one!

Who the hell would remove the robe, if its a man, or a woman? Who cares?
There has never been any type of terrorist attack, in the western world, by someone wearing a Burkha, that is a fact!

What I said, is pretty simple. A lot of people can disguise themselves as a woman, Burkha or not! So whats the point?

[*mazedsalv**]

Originally Posted by Wildcat!

LMAO!!!! Are you kidding me with this? Look at the picture from the OP, they have perfect peripheral vision! Someone wearing a hoodie does not!!! Put one on right now, and see how your peripheral vision is. The Burkha has no interference in your vision whatsoever. How ridiculous!!


YOu think someone dressed like this, has a better peripheral vision than the picture in the OP???
Use some common sense for gods sakes.

Okay maybe im swrong... but NO WAY is a hoodie just as dangerous. The burka covers more of the face making it worse to wear whilst driving. Anyway, ive hardly seen anyone stupid enough to wear a hoodie up while driving... it was hyperthetical.

[Oldmansteptoe!]

As per usual an Irish person completely getting the wrong end of the stick!
This country is far to easy going , the enemy is within, where I live we have had suicide bombers, that is totally unacceptable in a democratic country!
This is a 'Christian country' and the word tolerance is often misused to allow intolerant people and terrorists to operate however they like
If people cannot or will not abide by the British way of life they should not be here!

[Wildcat!]

Originally Posted by *mazedsalv**

Okay maybe im swrong... but NO WAY is a hoodie just as dangerous. The burka covers more of the face making it worse to wear whilst driving. Anyway, ive hardly seen anyone stupid enough to wear a hoodie up while driving... it was hyperthetical.

So then, how are you wrong???
You say maybe youre wrong, but yet maintain that the Burkha is more dangerous?
How does covering your face interfere with your driving??? DO you think these through or.....

[WOMBAI]

Originally Posted by Wildcat!

LMAO!!!! Are you kidding me with this? Look at the picture from the OP, they have perfect peripheral vision! Someone wearing a hoodie does not!!! Put one on right now, and see how your peripheral vision is. The Burkha has no interference in your vision whatsoever. How ridiculous!!


YOu think someone dressed like this, has a better peripheral vision than the picture in the OP???
Use some common sense for gods sakes.

The difference is that a hood can be pulled down very easily for driving, etc. A burka cannot as the woman is not allowed to remove it - when there are any men around who might see her face.

[Wildcat!]

Originally Posted by WOMBAI

The difference is that a hood can be pulled down very easily for driving, etc. A burka cannot as the woman is not allowed to remove it - when there are any men around who might see her face.

The think is, it does not interfere with your vision whatsoever!! Period!

[Wildcat!]

Originally Posted by Oldmansteptoe!

As per usual an Irish person completely getting the wrong end of the stick!
This country is far to easy going , the enemy is within, where I live we have had suicide bombers, that is totally unacceptable in a democratic country!
This is a 'Christian country' and the word tolerance is often misused to allow intolerant people and terrorists to operate however they like
If people cannot or will not abide by the British way of life they should not be here!

Christian country? LMAO!!!
Most of this country are atheiists!! HOw deluded are you thinking its a christian country. Please.

[WOMBAI]

Originally Posted by Wildcat!

Christian country? LMAO!!!
Most of this country are atheiists!! HOw deluded are you thinking its a christian country. Please.

You are missing the point! Its history and tradition are that of Christianity - which is the way most people want it to stay. In keeping with that - we have a culture and way of life we want to protect. Just as most other religions/cultures do - and that would apply to the Muslim religion more than most. They want to keep their identity and way of life - we want to keep ours. What is wrong with that. As they have chosen to live in our country - they should be prepared to adopt our way of life, within reason - not to expect us to constantly make allowances for them.