[NettoSuperstar!]

Patronisin get! Mine are open thanks

[Shasown]

Originally Posted by NettoSuperstar!

Patronisin get! Mine are open thanks

Not patronising at all, but I can be if you want me to be. And obviously they arent open, ignoring true statements that are laid before you because of your personal bias shows a rather closed mind.

[arista]

Originally Posted by Shasown

Thats the best arguement you have?

Ah well, I would have thought your time at the local tech college would have taught you to open your eyes, ears and mind, just shows ignorance is rife even in middle income England.

Good to see you come up to the required standard for Tony's edukashun policy.

Yes 13 years of Corrupt New Labour
have Wrecked our Money and Nation
let alone the New Labour Confusion and Mess of Education

[NettoSuperstar!]

Originally Posted by Shasown

Not patronising at all, but I can be if you want me to be. And obviously they arent open, ignoring true statements that are laid before you because of your personal bias shows a rather closed mind.

"tech college" not patronising, assuming some kind of intellectual superiority when quibbling over working time directives? please...My eyes are open to the fact that an elite few are hoarding wealth at the expense of the others dont even bother trying to deny it...and Maggie was a pioneer

[Shasown]

Originally Posted by NettoSuperstar!

"tech college" not patronising, assuming some kind of intellectual superiority when quibbling over working time directives? please...

Not an intellectual superiority, just being able to accept the truth regardless how much it goes against my own personal views.

Originally Posted by NettoSuperstar!

"My eyes are open to the fact that an elite few are hoarding wealth at the expense of the others dont even bother trying to deny it...and Maggie was a pioneer

Welcome to the real world darling, its always been that way and will always be that way, even in whatever socialist Utopia you cream about when you dream.

And of course old Neil "I will never wear ermine" Kinnock. Just how many indexed linked pensions does he need to live off? A good socialist example, makes you all warm and fuzzy just thinking about him.

[NettoSuperstar!]

It might be the real world as we know it "darling" doesnt make it right! Look at Sweden and other Scandinavian countries...whole different culture over there and they do alright

PS: stick that in your patronising pipe and smoke it sunny jim-

"....It wasn't adopted in Britain until 1998 (and reluctantly at that), following the loss of a court battle in 1996. The Conservative government had argued that working time was not a health and safety provision under the EU treaties and should not be subject to regulation at EU level."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/money/2006....europeanunion

"This confrontation strategy was
used by the UK’s conservative government in regard to the Working Time and the Young Workers
Directives. In both cases, John Major’s team was fundamentally opposed to the draft Directives
during the European negotiations (see e.g. Cassell 1992; EIRR 1993a; 1993b)

.....In March 1994, the UK challenged the
Working Time Directive in the European Court of Justice, seeking to annul the Directive on the
grounds that it had been issued on a wrong legal basis. A few days before the end of the
implementation deadline in November 1996, however, the European judges rejected all major
points of the UK challenge.17 The Tory government openly refused to accept the Court ruling
(House of Commons 1996: Cols 152-155) and did not take any decisive steps to comply with the
Directive until the end of its term of office in May 1997."

http://www.ihs.ac.at/publications/po...anPolitics.pdf

[Shasown]

Originally Posted by NettoSuperstar!

It might be the real world as we know it "darling" doesnt make it right! Look at Sweden and other Scandinavian countries...whole different culture over there and they do alright

PS: stick that in your patronising pipe and smoke it sunny jim-

"....It wasn't adopted in Britain until 1998 (and reluctantly at that), following the loss of a court battle in 1996. The Conservative government had argued that working time was not a health and safety provision under the EU treaties and should not be subject to regulation at EU level."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/money/2006....europeanunion

"This confrontation strategy was
used by the UK’s conservative government in regard to the Working Time and the Young Workers
Directives. In both cases, John Major’s team was fundamentally opposed to the draft Directives
during the European negotiations (see e.g. Cassell 1992; EIRR 1993a; 1993b)

.....In March 1994, the UK challenged the
Working Time Directive in the European Court of Justice, seeking to annul the Directive on the
grounds that it had been issued on a wrong legal basis. A few days before the end of the
implementation deadline in November 1996, however, the European judges rejected all major
points of the UK challenge.17 The Tory government openly refused to accept the Court ruling
(House of Commons 1996: Cols 152-155) and did not take any decisive steps to comply with the
Directive until the end of its term of office in May 1997."

http://www.ihs.ac.at/publications/po...anPolitics.pdf

I can thoroughly recommend reading fully any source you wish to quote to support an arguement, then follow up on anything you find. From your first source:

"Labour supported the directive in opposition, saying it would help restore a fair balance between the rights and responsibilities of employers and employees. It has been rather less enthusiastic about it since being in power."

This is because they have fought tooth and nail to stop the removal of the opt out clause, they have asked for junior doctors and other health care professional to be exempt, then when refused asked for extra time for the implementation etc. exemptions in the offshore industry. I could go on... and on... and on. But hopefully you get the point.

[NettoSuperstar!]

Originally Posted by Shasown

I can thoroughly recommend reading fully any source you wish to quote to support an arguement, then follow up on anything you find. From your first source:

"Labour supported the directive in opposition, saying it would help restore a fair balance between the rights and responsibilities of employers and employees. It has been rather less enthusiastic about it since being in power."

This is because they have fought tooth and nail to stop the removal of the opt out clause, they have asked for junior doctors and other health care professional to be exempt, then when refused asked for extra time for the implementation etc. exemptions in the offshore industry. I could go on... and on... and on. But hopefully you get the point.

Im sure you could go on and on.... in a convoluted and patronsing manner at that...point is it didnt take a friggin genius to work out the Tories would have been set against it from day one, yet you had to be a tool about it and start acting the big I am,....The opt out clause is neccesary in some circumstances so....and when did I ever say Labour were perfect? I'd just take them over the Tories anyday

[arista]

The Utter Stinking New Labour Corrupt Legacy
that One Eyed Scottish Brown can not escape from
Fact.

[arista]

More Dead under Corrupt New Labour (Led by One Eyed Scottish Brown)
than the Falklands conflict.

[Shasown]

Originally Posted by NettoSuperstar!

Im sure you could go on and on.... in a convoluted and patronsing manner at that...point is it didnt take a friggin genius to work out the Tories would have been set against it from day one, yet you had to be a tool about it and start acting the big I am,....The opt out clause is neccesary in some circumstances so....and when did I ever say Labour were perfect? I'd just take them over the Tories anyday

Well obviously you are nowhere close to being any sort of genius, why would the tories have been against it. Bar the fact Europe was taking a little bit more of our right to govern ourselves.

The opt out clause necessary? Give us a few examples where it is necessary. The only time i can see it being necessary for workers to enjoy the clause is where they want to earn extra through overtime.

Incidentally, most Unions state it should be removed because unscrupulous employers will bully or blackmail workers into signing to opt out. Seems a bit strange that one the Labour government not wanting to follow the unions on workers rights etc?

[NettoSuperstar!]

Originally Posted by Shasown

Well obviously you are nowhere close to being any sort of genius, why would the tories have been against it. Bar the fact Europe was taking a little bit more of our right to govern ourselves.

The opt out clause necessary? Give us a few examples where it is necessary. The only time i can see it being necessary for workers to enjoy the clause is where they want to earn extra through overtime.

Incidentally, most Unions state it should be removed because unscrupulous employers will bully or blackmail workers into signing to opt out. Seems a bit strange that one the Labour government not wanting to follow the unions on workers rights etc?

Well neither are you it dont wash mate...I dont really have much of an opinion on the opt out clause either way to be honest, yeh good points...whatever...the Tories opposed any kind of working time directive like I thought they would (lol@the excuses Maggie took what suited her and ditched what didnt) now frig off back to your Ivory tower and come back when you have a clue...and to reiterate I dont think the sun shines out of Labours arse either

[andyman]

Yes arista, Gordon Brown is from Scotland and has one bad eye..

[Shasown]

Originally Posted by NettoSuperstar!

Well neither are you it dont wash mate...I dont really have much of an opinion on the opt out clause either way to be honest, yeh good points...whatever...the Tories opposed any kind of working time directive like I thought they would (lol@the excuses Maggie took what suited her and ditched what didnt) now frig off back to your Ivory tower and come back when you have a clue...and to reiterate I dont think the sun shines out of Labours arse either

Arrr something I said upset you? I do have more than a clue, if you cant stand your arguements being ripped to shreds , post facts not opinionated drivel.

[bananarama]

Originally Posted by arista

Wrong
He will save this Nation.

About time they brought a pill out to cure self delusion ......Worst prime minister in the history well that prize has to go without a doubt to MARGARET THATCHER........

[arista]

Originally Posted by bananarama

About time they brought a pill out to cure self delusion ......

About time you read the Truth on Corrupt Warmonger Stinking New Labour
and One Eyed Scottish Brown.

[Shasown]

Originally Posted by bananarama

About time they brought a pill out to cure self delusion ......Worst prime minister in the history well that prize has to go without a doubt to MARGARET THATCHER........

And Wilson and then Callaghan were great werent they....

Aaaahhhh the good old days when you never knew when the next power cut (due to industrial action) was due, when household rubbish was allowed to accumulate in the streets for weeks at a time because the binmen didnt want to play. Bodies werent being buried and you couldnt get into or out of your local hospital because of the pickets. Railways werent running, petrol wasnt available at the pumps.

What a right good winter that was. 1978-1979 I remember it fondly.

[NettoSuperstar!]

Originally Posted by Shasown

Arrr something I said upset you? I do have more than a clue, if you cant stand your arguements being ripped to shreds , post facts not opinionated drivel.

haha ripped to shreds?? you were wrong mate! And Cameron wants to opt out of Europes social chapter aswell which will inevitably lead to workers suffering and mostly women probably, not to mention damage trade with Europe. I'm under no illusions, Labour just have crumbs to offer and the tiniest of glimpses of hope but Tories just dont have anything...unless your filthy rich of course. If you want to discuss the merits of the opt out clause Im happy too, but like I say I dont really have a fully formed opinion on it...apparently it would cause chaos in the NHS if junior Drs/nurses couldnt put the hours in and yeh people rely on doing overtime etc. But you bought up a good example of people being bullied into opting out, and why is it the rest of Europe can manage it and we cant?...Its not wrong to want to create a fairer society where everyone has the same opportunities, social inclusion and access to human rights but that will mean some will have to be a little less greedy. What the people at the top of some of their empires earn is obscene and undeserved. Just look at the mess thats been caused recently and who suffers? You might think its ok, dog eat dog right? but I dont and it will cause problems in society, if not be the downfall of it.

[Shasown]

Originally Posted by NettoSuperstar!

haha ripped to shreds?? you were wrong mate! And Cameron wants to opt out of Europes social chapter aswell which will inevitably lead to workers suffering and mostly women probably, not to mention damage trade with Europe. I'm under no illusions, Labour just have crumbs to offer and the tiniest of glimpses of hope but Tories just dont have anything...unless your filthy rich of course. If you want to discuss the merits of the opt out clause Im happy too, but like I say I dont really have a fully formed opinion on it...apparently it would cause chaos in the NHS if junior Drs/nurses couldnt put the hours in and yeh people rely on doing overtime etc. But you bought up a good example of people being bullied into opting out, and why is it the rest of Europe can manage it and we cant?...Its not wrong to want to create a fairer society where everyone has the same opportunities, social inclusion and access to human rights but that will mean some will have to be a little less greedy. What the people at the top of some of their empires earn is obscene and undeserved. Just look at the mess thats been caused recently and who suffers? You might think its ok, dog eat dog right? but I dont and it will cause problems in society, if not be the downfall of it.

Yes just look at the mess that has been caused recently, infortunately it wasnt David Cameron running the country was it? All those fat cat bankers getting bonuses and undermining our economy, so Brown and Darling step in and bail out the banks, and hey before they have paid back the money they owe the tax payer they are back getting the bonuses again.

How will opting out of the social chapter lead to workers suffering? All it means is we will be able to bring our own legislation for Health and Safety and Workers rights etc, without having to go through the European Majority Vote system we now have to. Or having unnecessary regulations forced onto UK industry. Its all right screaming "panic" but please understand what you are panicking for.

How do the rest of Europe manage in the health field? There are some countries health services that arent anywhere near as good as the NHS is. As for the better ones, they dont have half as many administrators in their health services thats for sure. Most of the money spent in health goes to front line services, doctors, nurses etc where it rightly should unlike the NHS where a sizeable amount of the budget goes to Administration.

No arguements about people at the top of businesses etc earning obscene amounts but you have to remember that since 1997 Tory Tony and now bungling Brown were at the helm of the ship.

While I commend your socialist feelings about equality for all, there are a lot more problems wrong with society than people earning different amounts and I dont honestly think that will bring about its downfall.

[NettoSuperstar!]

Originally Posted by Shasown

Yes just look at the mess that has been caused recently, infortunately it wasnt David Cameron running the country was it? All those fat cat bankers getting bonuses and undermining our economy, so Brown and Darling step in and bail out the banks, and hey before they have paid back the money they owe the tax payer they are back getting the bonuses again.

How will opting out of the social chapter lead to workers suffering? All it means is we will be able to bring our own legislation for Health and Safety and Workers rights etc, without having to go through the European Majority Vote system we now have to. Or having unnecessary regulations forced onto UK industry. Its all right screaming "panic" but please understand what you are panicking for.

How do the rest of Europe manage in the health field? There are some countries health services that arent anywhere near as good as the NHS is. As for the better ones, they dont have half as many administrators in their health services thats for sure. Most of the money spent in health goes to front line services, doctors, nurses etc where it rightly should unlike the NHS where a sizeable amount of the budget goes to Administration.

No arguements about people at the top of businesses etc earning obscene amounts but you have to remember that since 1997 Tory Tony and now bungling Brown were at the helm of the ship.

While I commend your socialist feelings about equality for all, there are a lot more problems wrong with society than people earning different amounts and I dont honestly think that will bring about its downfall.

No it wasnt Cameron running the country (thank ****), do you seriously think they would have kept the banks in check? It goes against everything they stand for. And as much as I'd love to share your optimism, do you honestly think if Cameron had his way things like maternity rights, working time directives etc will not be affected? Come on now... not that he will be able to do **** all anyway, Cameron has no clear direction on anything! And Im bloody glad it wasnt them in charge during this recession. As for health care, we could have one of the best systems in the world if there wasnt such class division and the two tier system that exists now...look at Sweden etc. The problem here is that too many people are concerned with their own welfare and dont have a second thought for whats good for society as a whole. I have no problem with people earning different amounts, Im not a commie, but there has to be balance and there has to be some kind of unity and concern for the whole of society in general or look at what greed and individualism does, it threatens the stability of us all and is more responsible for the division in society than anything else. Yeh I agree bankers should be paying us back big time, but Cameron wont be doing owt about that. I think the problem here is your lookin at Maggie with your economic specs on and I have my ideological ones on, sure she may have made some shrewd economic moves at the time but people (yer know them human being types) and society suffered for that...sure bringing back slave labour would make great economic sense, imagine how competitive we could be then lol but it aint right now is it?