[oddballmisfitsFTW]

Originally Posted by Ketman

No need to suppose a grand conspiracy that includes all wars ever fought. The war against Iraq was an opportunist war for the US and there is very little that can be said in defence of Bush-Blair. WWII is a different case, however. Fighting that war impoverished Britain for a generation. There were no material gains of any kind for us. The only motives in 1939 were those of sheer survival - fight and win, or go under. They should have acted earlier, and Churchill wanted them to, but he was out of the loop in those years. Instead they let the armed forces go to pot while the Nazis were building theirs up, and this had the effect of leading the Nazis to believe that they could act as they liked in Europe, and Britain would just let them. That was a mistake, but we have to take some blame for allowing them to make it. But, overall, it was one of the few wars in our history where we can be proud of our role.

there may well be no connection at all, but I dont discount it completely, I just keep at back of my mind and try not to worry bout it

if it was true there wouldnt be material gains for us the general population, but there would for the ruling classes.
The UK was in massive debt before the crisis, who was the money borrowed from? and then cos of the economic crisis the banks cry help, so taxpayer helps out the banks and UK has even more debt. Then to get rid of the debt (yeah right) cuts are made and taxes go up again.
Its all ****ed up and they are getting away with it before our very eyes. Alomst comical really how much they have PWNED us
To me it equates to "we got you by the short and curlies, now this is what we gonna do....."

[Angus]

Originally Posted by StGeorge

Im neither a fan or hater of Ben, but i do think that in some cases when certain subjects are broached on BB, that it could lead to a distortion of the facts and events. This is why i have posted here as i feel WW2 was justified and the timing was unavoidable.
Someone says Ben is Jewish....i dont know, but there are some who actually would still take his views and turn it. Im amazed that with all the photographic evidence out there, some still disbeleive the Holocust.

Let's face it we have all had debates with friends, colleagues etc, about all sorts of sensitive subjects and often they are eye opening as to a person's true character, and often they are just the ramblings of someone making a controversial statement to shock or provoke a discussion. If someone is determined to believe or disbelieve something they will always be able to justify their stance one way or another. That's human nature.

Yes, Ben is Jewish - there is a brief piece about him in The Jewish Chronicle.
http://www.thejc.com/news/the-diary/...bs-ben-his-bum

[starry]

I don't care what 'race' Ben is thought to be, whether he is the right % of a particular 'race'.

[Angus]

Originally Posted by starry

I don't care what 'race' Ben is thought to be, whether he is the right % of a particular 'race'.

Nor do I, but the point I am making is that specifically because Ben is Jewish I do not believe for one moment he would condone the holocaust.

[calyman]

Originally Posted by Livia

There was a HUGE depression before WW2. Did you hear about that? The whole of the world suffered. The reason Hitler came to power was that he promised the Germans, who were starving, he would put food on their table. They worked, they built autobahns, he fed their children. Hearts and minds. Thats how he rose to power so astonishingly quickly. The mass production of arms didn't occur until quite a while after Hitler was in power.

To say that the upper Class British gave Hitler power is ill-informed and really classist. It wasn't just the working class that died in WW2, people from all classes died.

It's a well documented fact of history that Churchill was a lone voice warning about the danger of the rise of the nazis, it's clear that the Allies had the resources to stop Hitler until he began rebuilding Germany's armaments, after seizing the Rhineland, indefiance of the versailles treaty, that itself was sufficient reason for the allies to take effective action when they could.

Hitler also fed the Germans, the lie that the previous war's Government had given victory to the allies, he fuelled hatred of Jews, eastern europeans, Homosexuals, the disabled and Romany peoples.

Working class people have never had power in Government, have never decided national policy in respect of Government, had no say in deciding what to do about the bazis, though many working class people did fught for the Republican forces in Spain, this was not sanctioned by the British Government.

It was the British ruling classes who denied Jewish immigrants entry to Britain, fleeing from Nazi persecution, the ruling classes who allowed Hitler's rise unopposed, the ruling classes who by their inaction and tacit support of nazism, who are ultimately responsible, along with the nazis; for the slaughter of disabled, Jewish, Homosexual and other minorities in Germany. Also responsible for the countless deaths of young British soldiers in a conflict that need never have happened.

[vesavius]

The problem here I think is that Ben was arguing form a logistical standpoint, with a focus on the loss and wealth and empire for the country, while the others were arguing from a ethical standpoint (the moral stand against Nazism).

The two priorities are always gonna clash.

It's just how Ben sees things... he dosent emotionally connect to anything- people or events. He dosent get the concept of ethical politics (as we have seen from his cold lying and using of others in the house) and sees no value for fighting in something just because it 'right', especially if there is an attached personal cost.

We see exactly the same dynamic when he is arguing with JJ... Ben argues from a calm unemotional stance, disattached and logical, and JJ argues from the heart for what he believes. Ironically, this is the very reason why many consider JJ to 'lose' this arguments, because many see being calm as an automatic win, no matter what is actually said.


If Ben had been around during WW2 he would have been a British Nazi apologiser, appeaser, and sympathiser, simply because that would have been the stance in which he would have seen the least personal cost for himself and potentiolly he best financial choice for the Empire.

There were nore of them around then many think, and most of them came from the very social classes that Ben tries so hard to emulate.

[Shasown]

Originally Posted by calyman

It's a well documented fact of history that Churchill was a lone voice warning about the danger of the rise of the nazis, it's clear that the Allies had the resources to stop Hitler until he began rebuilding Germany's armaments, after seizing the Rhineland, indefiance of the versailles treaty, that itself was sufficient reason for the allies to take effective action when they could.

Hitler also fed the Germans, the lie that the previous war's Government had given victory to the allies, he fuelled hatred of Jews, eastern europeans, Homosexuals, the disabled and Romany peoples.

Working class people have never had power in Government, have never decided national policy in respect of Government, had no say in deciding what to do about the bazis, though many working class people did fught for the Republican forces in Spain, this was not sanctioned by the British Government.

It was the British ruling classes who denied Jewish immigrants entry to Britain, fleeing from Nazi persecution, the ruling classes who allowed Hitler's rise unopposed, the ruling classes who by their inaction and tacit support of nazism, who are ultimately responsible, along with the nazis; for the slaughter of disabled, Jewish, Homosexual and other minorities in Germany. Also responsible for the countless deaths of young British soldiers in a conflict that need never have happened.

Lots of good facts there too, but again you are missing the point that Ben was probably trying to make.

Why did Hitler rise to power? Because of the state of Germany after World War 1. We pretty much imposed the Versaille Treaty on them and let them get on with it. If instead of punitive measures against Germany we had actually helped rebuild the country and assist them through the Depression,(like we did in the late 40's and 50's) Germany wouldnt have been such an easy country to take over for the Nazi Party.

Although he stated Britiains Foreign Policy was flawed towards Gemany through the 1930's, it was flawed far earlier than that. It was flawed from the turn of the century, and didnt change until the end of the Second World War. In the 1900's and 1910's Germany was jealous of the Empires of other countries and tried to build her own, this is what lead to the First World War.


Following their defeat in WW1 they had to make reparations and comply with certain requirements which made the proud old germans lose their national pride, along comes Hitler with his ideas of Germany being equal to any of the worlds powers, and people to blame for the German Defeat, a bit of attitude like why cant we have an army to defend ourselves, lets build one.

Of course people were going to follow him. If our foreign policy had been different after WW1 we could have possibly prevented his rise to power.