[MTVN]

Grimnir also supported Mubarak if I remember rightly, starting to see a pattern emerging here..

[Grimnir]

Originally Posted by Shasown

Ask a politician if they lied, they will probably say they didnt reveal the whole truth but they didnt lie. Such is the political animal.

There is an old joke "How do you know a politician is lying?" Answer: "his lips move" Its as true now as its always been.

I am not a politician, but I have been involved with the intelligence community in a past life and I know even they hide the real truth from their political masters and peers. Just about everyone has agendas, not all of them selfish, some are more altruistic than others.

Remember during election debates and Clegg was like some X Factor contestant, everyone loved him and thought ooooooh this guy seems different.
I knew straight away he was nothing but a liar. He is such a bad liar.
If someone tries too hard to try and appear more honest and genuine than others, they a liar.

Another way to tell if a politician is a liar is if they all say the same thing. They are going by a script and it is not their own opinion.
What shall we tell the public?
Tell them ...........
Then they all say the same .......... lies lies lies

[MTVN]

Originally Posted by Grimnir

Remember during election debates and Clegg was like some X Factor contestant, everyone loved him and thought ooooooh this guy seems different.
I knew straight away he was nothing but a liar. He is such a bad liar.
If someone tries too hard to try and appear more honest and genuine than others, they a liar.

Another way to tell if a politician is a liar is if they all say the same thing. They are going by a script and it is not their own opinion.
What shall we tell the public?
Tell them ...........
Then they all say the same .......... lies lies lies

Oh for God's sake, still you havent told me why the Libyan rebels are "criminals and terrorists"

Your logic is completely flawed, basically because you dont trust Western politicians, eveything they (and by extension the media apparently) say must be false and the exact opposite must be true. You believe Gaddafi because our politicians lie, but that's completely ignoring every single lie and untruth that Gaddafi himself has told, and that list must be damn long

[Angus]

Originally Posted by Grimnir

Remember during election debates and Clegg was like some X Factor contestant, everyone loved him and thought ooooooh this guy seems different.
I knew straight away he was nothing but a liar. He is such a bad liar.
If someone tries too hard to try and appear more honest and genuine than others, they a liar.

Another way to tell if a politician is a liar is if they all say the same thing. They are going by a script and it is not their own opinion.
What shall we tell the public?
Tell them ...........
Then they all say the same .......... lies lies lies

Yep, it's like the old joke: How do you know when a politician is lying? Their lips move.

[MTVN]

Originally Posted by Shasown

There is an old joke "How do you know a politician is lying?" Answer: "his lips move" Its as true now as its always been.

Originally Posted by angus58

Yep, it's like the old joke: How do you know when a politician is lying? Their lips move.

You were beaten to it I'm afraid

[Grimnir]

Originally Posted by MTVN

Oh for God's sake, still you havent told me why the Libyan rebels are "criminals and terrorists"

Your logic is completely flawed, basically because you dont trust Western politicians, eveything they (and by extension the media apparently) say must be false and the exact opposite must be true. You believe Gaddafi because our politicians lie, but that's completely ignoring every single lie and untruth that Gaddafi himself has told, and that list must be damn long

I will go through my logic which you say is flawed.

UK and US want to get rid of Gaddafi.
I ask myself WHY?
Is it because they care about the Libyan civilians? Which is what most naive people seem to think.
Don' think so somehow.
Firstly I do not trust the UK and US government for starters.
Then I think why do they want to help Libyan people?
They did nothing in Rwanda, Sudan and many other countries.
In those countries the scale of bloodshed was WAY beyond what is happening in Libya.
Last few days on the news it shows footage of small groups of men armed and chanting, these we are told are the rebels. I have no idea who these people are, I don't even know they are Libyan. I just see they have weapons and want to overthrow the government of Libya.
Then when we see politicians talk, they always say Gaddafi is killing his own people, he is killing innocent civilians. If Gaddafi is killing the same people who are holding the machine guns, then they are not innocent civilians, they are terrorists and rebels.
Yesterday Libyan government said they had called a ceasefire.
Straight away the western politicians were saying, no he may have called a ceasefire but according to our sources he is still attacking. Show us some proof then, instead of just saying it with headlines.
No one in UK knows what the hell is going on in Libya at all.
None of us see the big picture.
We only know what the media is telling us.
Media show what they are told to show.
How does a few dozen armed men wanting to get rid of Gaddafi automatically mean the entire population wants to get rid of Gaddafi?
Millions of people live in Libya.
How many of those millions of people support Gaddafi and how many support the rebels?

Instead of UK and US saying Gaddafi must go, why are they not instead saying that they will help UN send in peacekeeping mission to stop the fighting between the two sides.
Why are UK, US and France using armed forces to intervene in the conflict.

How many people are UK, US and France going to kill with bombing raids?
Think of this
How many INNOCENT people have died so far, not rebels or Gaddafi army, but innocent people.
How many INNOCENT people will die in next few days or weeks as a result of bombing Libya.
A LOT more in my opinion.
So they end up killing more people to stop people getting killed??? That seems like flawed logic to me.

So what is their motive behind it all?
They want to take control of the country.
If that is their intention then it is very difficult to believe anything that see or hear on media and from politicians.
Propaganda can spin any story any way they like.
It is not difficult to create BS and have people believe it.

[Shasown]

Originally Posted by Grimnir

I will go through my logic which you say is flawed.

UK and US want to get rid of Gaddafi.
I ask myself WHY?

Are you living in a bubble? Because the man has openly backed terrorism on just about continent, because he has in the past killed thousands of his people in purges when he feels threatened, oh and because he has stated recently that he intends to do the same again.

Oh not only that but most other Arab countries despise him and he controls vast quantities of oil.

As for his forces breaking the ceasefire, havent you watched TV news coverage over the last 24 hours?

[Shasown]

Originally Posted by Grimnir

Instead of UK and US saying Gaddafi must go, why are they not instead saying that they will help UN send in peacekeeping mission to stop the fighting between the two sides.
Why are UK, US and France using armed forces to intervene in the conflict.

How many people are UK, US and France going to kill with bombing raids?
Think of this
How many INNOCENT people have died so far, not rebels or Gaddafi army, but innocent people.
How many INNOCENT people will die in next few days or weeks as a result of bombing Libya.
A LOT more in my opinion.
So they end up killing more people to stop people getting killed??? That seems like flawed logic to me.

So what is their motive behind it all?
They want to take control of the country.
If that is their intention then it is very difficult to believe anything that see or hear on media and from politicians.
Propaganda can spin any story any way they like.
It is not difficult to create BS and have people believe it.

Its not the UK and US, the Arab League approached various nations to assist.

The UN dont want a ground war, that is counter productive to their current aims (stop the massacre of anti-gaddafi civilians)

The US UK France and numerous other countries(Canada, Australia and quite a lot of Arab countries) will use armed force to comply with the UN ruling in a legally authorised manner.

Hopefully no one will be killed, the US and UK announced their intent to target specific military targets, hopefully all bombs will fall on target and the troops manning the locations have took the hint.

As for taking over the country, nope somehow I dont think so, intervention on the ground is not approved by the UN.

There are a lot of people in the media like you, believers in conspitacies etc, thats why the real truth always comes out.

[Grimnir]

Originally Posted by Shasown

Are you living in a bubble? Because the man has openly backed terrorism on just about continent, because he has in the past killed thousands of his people in purges when he feels threatened, oh and because he has stated recently that he intends to do the same again.

Oh not only that but most other Arab countries despise him and he controls vast quantities of oil.

As for his forces breaking the ceasefire, havent you watched TV news coverage over the last 24 hours?

Question is who to believe, Gaddafi and Libyan Government or UK and US governments. Who is lying and who is telling the truth.

You say he admits to backing terrorists and he stated openly on TV he would crush the rebels and all the other things he says, where whatever you may think of him, he is actually telling the truth and not hiding his intentions or personality behind lies.
So why would he be lying in this scenario then?

We know for a fact that UK government lie all the time, Iraq is just the most famous example, there are many others.

I do not believe the UK and US Governments. Until maybe I saw a independent survey carried out on citizens of Libya asking who they support.
I think most of Libya support the government and the truth is what the government are claiming. It is a few hundred or so criminals and terrorists backed by western forces.

How many THOUSANDS of innocent people are going to die now as a result of relentless bombings?

They say they are doing all this to protect the Libyan people, but truth is they will kill a lot more and the Libyan people will start to hate the west even more than they already do. Also eventually British public we see the truth that it is nothing more than another Iraq and will soon start protests all over again. Will Cameron or anyone be held to account and accused of war crimes?
Nope Blair didn't so why should any of them

[Grimnir]

Originally Posted by Shasown

Its not the UK and US, the Arab League approached various nations to assist.

The UN dont want a ground war, that is counter productive to their current aims (stop the massacre of anti-gaddafi civilians)

The US UK France and numerous other countries(Canada, Australia and quite a lot of Arab countries) will use armed force to comply with the UN ruling in a legally authorised manner.

Hopefully no one will be killed, the US and UK announced their intent to target specific military targets, hopefully all bombs will fall on target and the troops manning the locations have took the hint.

As for taking over the country, nope somehow I dont think so, intervention on the ground is not approved by the UN.

There are a lot of people in the media like you, believers in conspitacies etc, thats why the real truth always comes out.

Yes there are many people who wonder about various conspiracy theories.
Maybe it is because they are true.
Sometimes I think it could be all nonsense, but then I think back to events such as Holocaust and other atrocities and realise that mankind is capable of true evil, so it is not that crazy to believe. Is it?
People should always research conspiracy theories themselves and make their own judgements.
Some are nonsense, but some are very real.

[MTVN]

Originally Posted by Grimnir

Question is who to believe, Gaddafi and Libyan Government or UK and US governments. Who is lying and who is telling the truth.

You say he admits to backing terrorists and he stated openly on TV he would crush the rebels and all the other things he says, where whatever you may think of him, he is actually telling the truth and not hiding his intentions or personality behind lies.
So why would he be lying in this scenario then?

We know for a fact that UK government lie all the time, Iraq is just the most famous example, there are many others.

I do not believe the UK and US Governments. Until maybe I saw a independent survey carried out on citizens of Libya asking who they support.
I think most of Libya support the government and the truth is what the government are claiming. It is a few hundred or so criminals and terrorists backed by western forces.

How many THOUSANDS of innocent people are going to die now as a result of relentless bombings?

They say they are doing all this to protect the Libyan people, but truth is they will kill a lot more and the Libyan people will start to hate the west even more than they already do. Also eventually British public we see the truth that it is nothing more than another Iraq and will soon start protests all over again. Will Cameron or anyone be held to account and accused of war crimes?
Nope Blair didn't so why should any of them

I dont even think this warrants a response

[arista]

They call the Rebals Terrorists

[letmein]

Originally Posted by Grimnir

I thought US and UK were fighting a war on terror against terrorists

Now they are siding with terrorists

Strange world we live in

Just seen on news report they said the crowd of rebels firing rifles in the air chanting allahu akbar

It is not an uprising it is a military coup backed by terrorists and orchestrated by the West.

You're siding with Gaddafi????! Lawd, Jesus!

[letmein]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

I am not in favour of the UK being involved with the USA again in some conflict but I do hope Gaddafi falls as I hoped Saddam Hussein would too in Iraq. In my opinion the fall of Hussein justified the Iraq exercise, the World and Iraq is better place without him in power anywhere.

Uh, no. Iraq is now a full-blown theocracy. The women are back in the burkas. People died for an illegal invasion, allowing terrorists to run free. There is absolutely no justification. It was a war crime, plain and simple.

[Liberty4eva]

Originally Posted by parmnion

good or bad?

Bad. The problem I have with the strike against Libya, besides the potential civilian deaths which will inevitably be pinned on the USA, is that Obama bypassed the Congress when he said during his campaign that a president should not go to war unless it's authorized by the Congress. I agree 100% with the man being interviewed in the following clip. His name is Dennis Kucinich and, after Ron Paul, he's perhaps the most principled member of Congress.

Youtube video

[Shasown]

Originally Posted by Liberty4eva

Bad. The problem I have with the strike against Libya, besides the potential civilian deaths which will inevitably be pinned on the USA,

That would be because the US forces are a bit trigger happy and excitable, spraying lead when it is unnecessary.

Was only yesterday anti Gadaffi civilians were handing a downed US pilot over to local rebels for them to help him exfiltrate back to US forces when the CSAR team shot them up wounding 6.