[MTVN]

Originally Posted by Niall

And the idea that Communism seeks to crush and oppress isn't what the theory of Communism is about at all. The ideal Communist state would have everyone on a equal levels for jobs, homes, facilities etc. People wouldn't be denied access to things just because they don't have enough money etc nor does it seek to repress diversity and difference either, the Soviet Union effectively legalised Homosexuality in the 1920s in the RSFR. Although Stalin did repress it again later on.

I'm not a Communist but I do understand the real vision of Communism and how it was meant to be.

It might not be what the theory is about but it's an inevitable consequence, or it has been anyway. Trouble is, for Communism to work, you'd need everyone to subscribe to it and at least be compliant in the distribution of their land and wealth, and if they dont the only option is to coercively take it. And then where's the incentive for the money-makers to continue to produce the wealth and the GDP that the country is reliant on. There isnt any, and far too much power is placed in the hands of the state, having control over every single aspect of society and the economy will just lead to ineffeciency, no competition, no incentives etc., look how much of a failure War Communism was; it was an absolute disaster even if they were fighting a Civil War at the time. Only by starting to introduce some more Capitalistic policies did the economy recover

The whole idea of Communism is utopian imo and I'm yet to be convinced it could ever work and I would never want it to, even just in theory it's an infringement on freedom if you ask me, economically anyway.

[Shasown]

Originally Posted by Niall

I understand what you are saying but I don't really think labelling it a secular religion is correct. Hardcore Communists think religion should be totally abolished.

Also, I don't think that politics is always influenced by religion. The increasingly secular attitudes of many world governments today shows that the state can remain totally secular and not use religion as a guideline for the laws they create. Some countries may choose to incorporate it though however like Islamic nations which you mentioned.

And the idea that Communism seeks to crush and oppress isn't what the theory of Communism is about at all. The ideal Communist state would have everyone on a equal levels for jobs, homes, facilities etc. People wouldn't be denied access to things just because they don't have enough money etc nor does it seek to repress diversity and difference either, the Soviet Union effectively legalised Homosexuality in the 1920s in the RSFR. Although Stalin did repress it again later on.

I'm not a Communist but I do understand the real vision of Communism and how it was meant to be.

While it is true the ideal communsit state wouldnt oppress, Angus wasnt talking about the ideal communist state. She was using Soviet Russia as an exemplar of the fact that certain leaders in history have whilst repudiating religion replaced it in peoples psyche with the state.

Lenin was an extremely shrewd manipulator, and adapted Marxist doctrine to suit what he believed was a stronger concept - marxist leninism if you like. Whilst he was extremely cynical about religion he understood it filled a need in man in general and so tinkered with formal and functional parallels between the state and religion.

In its organisation, its techniques for recruitment, its means of eliciting loyalty from its adherents Lenins party structure owes more to Bakunin than Marx. As you are no doubt are aware Bakunin believed revolution was not only a socio-political phenomenon but was ultimately theological and religious in character.

Stalin when he came to power having been partially trained as a priest and after studying under a spiritual teacher also recognised the strength of the religious impulse within people. He also knew how to activate and manipulate it.

Look at the way Stalin elevated Lenin after death to almost godhood, lying in state, national mourning, national holiday, embalming the body and the pyramid like tomb. Very incongruous with a rationalist secular system which declared itself atheistic and hostile to all forms of religion and the cult of 'personality'.

Take for example this text with response style chorus, its wasnt a parody of religious prayer it was designed to be a religious rite in itself:

In departing from us Comrade Lenin enjoined on us to hold high and keep pure the great calling of Member of the Party
Response - We Vow to thee. Comrade Lenin that we will honourably fulfill thy commandment.

In departing from us Comrade Lenin enjoined us to guard the unity of the Party
Response - We vow to thee Comarade lenin that we will honourably fulfill this thy commandment.

In departing from us Comrade Lenin enjoined to us to guard and strengthen the dictatorship of the Proletariat..

ETC ETC.

Admission into the Communist Party in the late 20' and the 30's was also ritualistic, and very religious in nature. The rite of ceremony, as well as the iconic red flag handed over.

A better example would have been of Germany during the rise of National Socialism. The concept behind the party appealed to the religious impulse of the German people, the rituals, parades stirring music speeches, mass hysteria etc. A lot of the rituals based and timed around pre christian festivals and rites.

It was the religious fervour of a people who had lost faith in God, following the horrors of the First World War and had been steered to the magical properties of the Germanic culture etc. If you get the chance read the works of Hermann Rauschning (one of Hitler's earlier confidantes and deputies) on Hitlers cynical manipulation.

Yep thats right I claim todays first Godwin as well

Incidentally most countries use laws based on common law which in medieval times was laid down by the local religious bodies, in the UK, christian(Catholic then later Protestant churches having great input). Christan principles based on earlier Judaic and even earlier prnciples formed from religions. (eg Zoroastrianism)

Other countries simply adapt from their colonial rulers original laws. So you dont really have a truly secular set of laws anywhere in Europe, the Americas, Africa, even Asian countries used either Christian or Buddhist principals to set initial legislation.

[bananarama]

Originally Posted by Stu

That's like me saying people who abstain from drugs are just sheep who are following others who abstain from drugs.


Still it must be so great being you.

Addicts abstain from drugs when they realize how bloody stupid they are.
People who never take them are not people that abstain. Nothing to abstain from. Thefore not sheep. Mmmmm. I wonder why your thinking is so muddled

[Niall]

Originally Posted by MTVN

It might not be what the theory is about but it's an inevitable consequence, or it has been anyway. Trouble is, for Communism to work, you'd need everyone to subscribe to it and at least be compliant in the distribution of their land and wealth, and if they dont the only option is to coercively take it. And then where's the incentive for the money-makers to continue to produce the wealth and the GDP that the country is reliant on. There isnt any, and far too much power is placed in the hands of the state, having control over every single aspect of society and the economy will just lead to ineffeciency, no competition, no incentives etc., look how much of a failure War Communism was; it was an absolute disaster even if they were fighting a Civil War at the time. Only by starting to introduce some more Capitalistic policies did the economy recover

The whole idea of Communism is utopian imo and I'm yet to be convinced it could ever work and I would never want it to, even just in theory it's an infringement on freedom if you ask me, economically anyway.

Yeah I know what you mean. I was just talking about the Communist ideal lol.

And I'm not really convinced a true Utopia is ever possible, humans are just too easily corrupted.

Originally Posted by Shasown

Spoiler:

While it is true the ideal communsit state wouldnt oppress, Angus wasnt talking about the ideal communist state. She was using Soviet Russia as an exemplar of the fact that certain leaders in history have whilst repudiating religion replaced it in peoples psyche with the state.

Lenin was an extremely shrewd manipulator, and adapted Marxist doctrine to suit what he believed was a stronger concept - marxist leninism if you like. Whilst he was extremely cynical about religion he understood it filled a need in man in general and so tinkered with formal and functional parallels between the state and religion.

In its organisation, its techniques for recruitment, its means of eliciting loyalty from its adherents Lenins party structure owes more to Bakunin than Marx. As you are no doubt are aware Bakunin believed revolution was not only a socio-political phenomenon but was ultimately theological and religious in character.

Stalin when he came to power having been partially trained as a priest and after studying under a spiritual teacher also recognised the strength of the religious impulse within people. He also knew how to activate and manipulate it.

Look at the way Stalin elevated Lenin after death to almost godhood, lying in state, national mourning, national holiday, embalming the body and the pyramid like tomb. Very incongruous with a rationalist secular system which declared itself atheistic and hostile to all forms of religion and the cult of 'personality'.

Take for example this text with response style chorus, its wasnt a parody of religious prayer it was designed to be a religious rite in itself:

In departing from us Comrade Lenin enjoined on us to hold high and keep pure the great calling of Member of the Party
Response - We Vow to thee. Comrade Lenin that we will honourably fulfill thy commandment.

In departing from us Comrade Lenin enjoined us to guard the unity of the Party
Response - We vow to thee Comarade lenin that we will honourably fulfill this thy commandment.

In departing from us Comrade Lenin enjoined to us to guard and strengthen the dictatorship of the Proletariat..

ETC ETC.

Admission into the Communist Party in the late 20' and the 30's was also ritualistic, and very religious in nature. The rite of ceremony, as well as the iconic red flag handed over.

A better example would have been of Germany during the rise of National Socialism. The concept behind the party appealed to the religious impulse of the German people, the rituals, parades stirring music speeches, mass hysteria etc.

It was the religious fervour of a people who had lost faith in God, following the horrors of the First World War and had been steered to the magical properties of the Germanic culture etc. If you get the chance read the works of Hermann Rauschning (one of Hitler's earlier confidantes and deputies) on Hitlers cynical manipulation.

Yep thats right I claim todays first Godwin as well

Incidentally most countries use laws based on common law which in medieval times was laid down by the local religious bodies, in the UK, christian(Catholic then later Protestant churches having great input). Other countries simply adapt from their colonial rulers original laws. So you dont really have a truly secular set of laws anywhere in Europe, the Americas, Africa, even Asian countries used either Christian or Buddhist principals to set initial legislation.

Wow long post rofl.

But yeah I agree with most of that. I think that elevating Lenin to a God-like status was just another method the Communist party in the USSR used to exert control over its people. Most of the communist states had that whole cult of personality thing going on. I never knew about how the Communist party was ritualistic in admissions though. Thats quite interesting to hear about.

I'll try to have a read of that book as well, sounds interesting.

And I know lots of the laws in different regions of the world stemmed from religion but anyone could come up with a set of laws and say they were from God couldn't they?

[Stu]

Originally Posted by bananarama

Addicts abstain from drugs when they realize how bloody stupid they are.
People who never take them are not people that abstain. Nothing to abstain from. Thefore not sheep. Mmmmm. I wonder why your thinking is so muddled

Yes, they do abstain. You know full well what I meant and are in no position presently to go about changing the dictionary definition for words when it suits you. My use of the word is both in context and correct.

Not all drug users are addicts. This is a fact and a fact is another thing you are in no position to challenge. I know you feel differently because you feel you are inherently a better person than them by sheer virtue of the fact that you don't take certain substances into your body but trust me, much like the effects of many of these psychotropic substances, it's all in your head.

Why are my so muddled? Because your thick. Thick people confuse me.

[Shasown]

Originally Posted by Niall

I'll try to have a read of that book as well, sounds interesting.

And I know lots of the laws in different regions of the world stemmed from religion but anyone could come up with a set of laws and say they were from God couldn't they?

HR wrote two books, both contain anecdotes and quotes from AH, ones called "Hitler Speaks" cant remember the other one's name. Interesting reading.

The point I was making about laws, is not the fact they are supposed to come from God(s) but the fact laws of secular states evolved from earlier laws formed by religions, so you dont have original secular laws. Its just a situation that evolution and history has left is with.

Saying that though it could now be said that religion is a throwback to the ignorant period of mankind and as we evolve all forms of religion will become outdated and superceded by something else.

EDIT, found his first books name its "The Revolution of Nihilism" good old wiki

[Angus]

Originally Posted by Niall

I understand what you are saying but I don't really think labelling it a secular religion is correct. Hardcore Communists think religion should be totally abolished.

Also, I don't think that politics is always influenced by religion. The increasingly secular attitudes of many world governments today shows that the state can remain totally secular and not use religion as a guideline for the laws they create. Some countries may choose to incorporate it though however like Islamic nations which you mentioned.

And the idea that Communism seeks to crush and oppress isn't what the theory of Communism is about at all. The ideal Communist state would have everyone on a equal levels for jobs, homes, facilities etc. People wouldn't be denied access to things just because they don't have enough money etc nor does it seek to repress diversity and difference either, the Soviet Union effectively legalised Homosexuality in the 1920s in the RSFR. Although Stalin did repress it again later on.

I'm not a Communist but I do understand the real vision of Communism and how it was meant to be.

Nowhere did I say that Politics is always influenced by Religion - what I said was that when Political ideology and Religion combine, it is a force to be reckoned with, as with Islam. I also labelled Communism as a secular "religion" to make the point that it is just another belief system albeit without a theistic dimension. As I said before hardcore communists have no chance in hell of ever abolishing religion - the most they could ever do is abolish the overt worship and practice of religion. Short of totally brainwashing people into a zombie like state, no-one has the power to abolish individual thoughts and beliefs.

Communism as a theoretical concept is seductive and beguiling, and I would love to think it could ever work in practice, but unfortunately it has been proven NOT to work because it doesn't factor in the human element of greed, corruption, and selfishness. The Communist leaders in the Soviet grew ever more corrupt, ensuring they had luxurious homes and champagne lifestyles, whilst the bulk of the population were in a permanent state of bare existence, with no prospect of being able to aspire to a better lifestyle because it was not allowed.

The only way that communism could ever work is if every single human being bought into it to the concept to the same degree - but there will always be those that want to exploit, bully, and cheat others and grab more for themselves.

[Niall]

Originally Posted by angus58

Nowhere did I say that Politics is always influenced by Religion - what I said was that when Political ideology and Religion combine, it is a force to be reckoned with, as with Islam. I also labelled Communism as a secular "religion" to make the point that it is just another belief system albeit without a theistic dimension. As I said before hardcore communists have no chance in hell of ever abolishing religion - the most they could ever do is abolish the overt worship and practice of religion. Short of totally brainwashing people into a zombie like state, no-one has the power to abolish individual thoughts and beliefs.

Communism as a theoretical concept is seductive and beguiling, and I would love to think it could ever work in practice, but unfortunately it has been proven NOT to work because it doesn't factor in the human element of greed, corruption, and selfishness. The Communist leaders in the Soviet grew ever more corrupt, ensuring they had luxurious homes and champagne lifestyles, whilst the bulk of the population were in a permanent state of bare existence, with no prospect of being able to aspire to a better lifestyle because it was not allowed.

The only way that communism could ever work is if every single human being bought into it to the concept to the same degree - but there will always be those that want to exploit, bully, and cheat others and grab more for themselves.

*Agrees*