[Stu]

Originally Posted by Zee

I can simplify it so easily because she's not a person I know and love on a personal level, she's a celebrity, isn't that what society does with celebrities? We discuss them on a level that's separate from them as human beings - their fans "get to know them" on a personal level (as far as one can do so as a fan without actually knowing them) - but to most people, a celebrity is just a name and a face. That's personally how I can simplify it like that, I understand that others can't, but I can. The thread in Music dedicated to her musical contributions is for discussing her music, IMO, this is for discussing her death and her status as a celebrity addict because the working assumption seems to be that her death was drink/drugs related.

She is not a person I know and love on a personal level either. You don't exactly need to know and love her to sympathise with the fact that a tortured soul lay beneath the media personality. And like I said that is who I am siding and sympathising with. It's not that hard. She wasn't just a caricature drug addict for goodness sake so saying 'well it's okay for me to discuss her on those terms' to me is ultra frivilous.

I wish I wasn't drunk because I have the feeling I could tear these posts apart a lot better. I'll come back in the morning.

Originally Posted by tmi

Fair dews then Stu, I will say no more, carrying on cursing.

Thank you for your effing understanding .

[Pyramid*]

Originally Posted by Stu

How can you simplify it so easily? It's not just a choice between musician and drug addict. Beneath both those lofty accolades lies a human being and that is who I am siding with.

I have no sympathy for heavy drug users. There are many people who are human beings that I have not one iota of sympathy for. Being a human beng does not make a person something special.

AW had the world as her oyster. Had the world at her feet. She had the means to do right by herself - not others - by herself, her own life - she chose not to.

I certainly don't side with someone who has some talent, has the resources to help with her 'addictions/demons' but choses to snort it, inject, smoke and drink her life away. Why didn't respect herself: why should sympathy be expected now that the inevitable has happened? If it was not overdose but suicide: neither do I respect that. And before you ask: yes - I have experience of both affecting my life, so I'm in a position to put forth an educated and experinced point of view on those matters.

[tmi]

Originally Posted by Stu

She is not a person I know and love on a personal level either. You don't exactly need to know and love her to sympathise with the fact that a tortured soul lay beneath the media personality. And like I said that is who I am siding and sympathising with. It's not that hard. She wasn't just a caricature drug addict for goodness sake so saying 'well it's okay for me to discuss her on those terms' to me is ultra frivilous.

I wish I wasn't drunk because I have the feeling I could tear these posts apart a lot better. I'll come back in the morning.


Thank you for your effing understanding .

Thank fock for that mother f&ucker we can all curse mate.

[Claymores]

Originally Posted by Pyramid*

Can't you debate without being so supercillious?

You are hilarious Pyr - you say what needs said back to pretentious users.

[lily.]

I don't think she's in the same league as the others in the 27 club to be honest, but it remains to be seen how she's remembered.

[Z]

Originally Posted by Stu

She is not a person I know and love on a personal level either. You don't exactly need to know and love her to sympathise with the fact that a tortured soul lay beneath the media personality. And like I said that is who I am siding and sympathising with. It's not that hard. She wasn't just a caricature drug addict for goodness sake so saying 'well it's okay for me to discuss her on those terms' to me is ultra frivilous.

I wish I wasn't drunk because I have the feeling I could tear these posts apart a lot better. I'll come back in the morning.


Thank you for your effing understanding .

But I'm not denying that? She didn't choose to become a media joke, nobody does. I feel sorry for her family, but I don't feel sorry for her - she made a choice to walk down the path towards addiction, and that's not something I will ever feel sympathy towards because of my experiences with it in my own life. To you it might seem frivolous but to me it's like discussing the weather, I had no interest in her artistry or her drug problems, I don't know how else I can put it. I don't think there's any need to tear any posts apart, it's just my view and it's not going to change by having this discussion with anybody on this forum, or anywhere else. I don't pity drug addicts, that's not going to change.

[Stu]

Originally Posted by Pyramid*

I have no sympathy for heavy drug users. There are many people who are human beings that I have not one iota of sympathy for. Being a human beng does not make a person something special.

AW had the world as her oyster. Had the world at her feet. She had the means to do right by herself - not others - by herself, her own life - she chose not to.

I certainly don't side with someone who has some talent, has the resources to help with her 'addictions/demons' but choses to snort it, inject, smoke and drink her life away. Why didn't respect herself: why should sympathy be expected now that the inevitable has happened? If it was not overdose but suicide: neither do I respect that. And before you ask: yes - I have experience of both affecting my life, so I'm in a position to put forth an educated and experinced point of view on those matters.

I have sympathy for any human being who wasn't an outwardly bad person who died before their time. It doesn't matter to me that she had it coming. I know she did. Most do. I still sympathise. That is simply where we differ. My heart bleeds for her as it does many of my own close relatives who have killed themselves with gear and booze.

They made their own bed but it doesn't stop me from grieving. That's as simpe as I can phrase my views on this.

I pity drug addicts. Absoloutely. They are lost souls and absoloutely deserve all our help for as long as they remain breathing.

[arista]

Originally Posted by Zee

People being hysterical over her death and for some reason it being far more interesting to talk about than the bomb and massacre situation in Norway? Her problems have been all over the media for four years, I just think people should be more concerned about Norway than Amy Winehouse, get some perspective you know?

http://www.thisisbigbrother.com/foru...73#post4404973

Here is the thread for Norway Attack,
Zee.
Have you posted on it???



This thread is about the loss of Amy.

[Zippy]

Originally Posted by Pyramid*

I have no sympathy for heavy drug users.

nobody needs your sympathy.

But your need to ram your point home and continually insist she got what she deserved is just tasteless and unnecessary. Especially since her body is barely cold.

If you can't say anything kind or sympathetic about somebodies death then you really should just zip it. At least for a day or two. Let those who are sad mourn her death ffs.

It's not like she's a murderer who deserved to die.

[Tom4784]

People who think addiction is all about choice and that it's her own fault come across as the ignorant morons they are. I hate drugs and I hate people who take them but I understand that addiction is an illness and one that's hard to beat, you won't get over it as quickly as Phil Mitchell did in Eastenders...

Amy Winehouse was a troubled soul, she obviously couldn't have shook the need for drugs off if she wanted to.

[Pyramid*]

Originally Posted by tmi

Thank fock for that mother f&ucker we can all curse mate.

And on that...I totally agree. !!!

Originally Posted by Claymores

You are hilarious Pyr - you say what needs said back to pretentious users.

You are meant to be doing a bit of partaking in some legal 'drugs' ..... get your pint down yer neck!!

Originally Posted by lily.

I don't think she's in the same league as the others in the 27 club to be honest, but it remains to be seen how she's remembered.

Neither do I Lily. As you say, rightly: it remains to be seen. Although: i get the distinct feeling: there will be much sympathy coming from the heavy drug users all over the place - whether they were fans or not - making someone into some sort of 'legend' because they had a bit of talent, a few good songs then spent the remainder of the following years doing not much other than being out of minds on whatever the drug of the hour was: there are more deserving cases worthy of being exalted status.

[tmi]

Originally Posted by Stu

She is not a person I know and love on a personal level either. You don't exactly need to know and love her to sympathise with the fact that a tortured soul lay beneath the media personality. And like I said that is who I am siding and sympathising with. It's not that hard. She wasn't just a caricature drug addict for goodness sake so saying 'well it's okay for me to discuss her on those terms' to me is ultra frivilous.

I wish I wasn't drunk because I have the feeling I could tear these posts apart a lot better. I'll come back in the morning.


Thank you for your effing understanding .

I went from the laptop for a mo and came back and realised I was been pissed on. I wont fall for it again. If you dont like the way I post just say.

[Scarlett.]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

People who think addiction is all about choice and that it's her own fault come across as the ignorant morons they are. I hate drugs and I hate people who take them but I understand that addiction is an illness and one that's hard to beat, you won't get over it as quickly as Phil Mitchell did in Eastenders...

Amy Winehouse was a troubled soul, she obviously couldn't have shook the need for drugs off if she wanted to.

Totally this.

[Z]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

People who think addiction is all about choice and that it's her own fault come across as the ignorant morons they are. I hate drugs and I hate people who take them but I understand that addiction is an illness and one that's hard to beat, you won't get over it as quickly as Phil Mitchell did in Eastenders...

Amy Winehouse was a troubled soul, she obviously couldn't have shook the need for drugs off if she wanted to.

No, taking addictive substances is a choice. That's the point I and others I assume are trying to make, and that's where the lack of pity stems from. It's obviously sad to see somebody struggle with addiction, but I can also be unsympathetic towards them for making that choice in the first place at the same time. I am not an ignorant moron. She, or someone who loved her, could have at least tried, I think people were more interested in taking advantage of her by making money out of her rather than helping her. It is physically possible to remove yourself from harmful circumstances when you have the kind of money she had, if you really wanted to, by virtue of her not doing that, I therefore think that she didn't really want to quit and again, have no sympathy. It's just an ideological thing I think, people tend to have concrete views on addiction.

[Stu]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

People who think addiction is all about choice and that it's her own fault come across as the ignorant morons they are. I hate drugs and I hate people who take them but I understand that addiction is an illness and one that's hard to beat, you won't get over it as quickly as Phil Mitchell did in Eastenders...

Amy Winehouse was a troubled soul, she obviously couldn't have shook the need for drugs off if she wanted to.

Well said. Pyramid herself has sampled drug addiction - namely Nicotine - yet refuses to legitamise my comparative arguments which are entirely credible. Tobacco slowly kills you and slowly reels you in. Crack and Heroin can kill you much faster and reel you in much faster. They are far, far, far more pleasing than tobacco.

Any regular smoker should have absoloutely symptahy and understanding for how horrific a hardcore drug addiction can be. I refuse to see the point in any 'she got what she deserved' or 'well my uncle ...' style arguments.

I'm betting she didn't actually want to die and like I said at the top of the thread ... the buck stops there for me. And even if she did screw it up for herself ... I feel sorry for her. What's the harm in that? It's a lost life for christ sake.

That's all I'm going to say on the matter before it gets messy. I've articulated myself as much as I can.

[keithafc]

RIP. She was brilliant but flawed. All i will say on it.

[Pyramid*]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

People who think addiction is all about choice and that it's her own fault come across as the ignorant morons they are. I hate drugs and I hate people who take them but I understand that addiction is an illness and one that's hard to beat, you won't get over it as quickly as Phil Mitchell did in Eastenders...

Amy Winehouse was a troubled soul, she obviously couldn't have shook the need for drugs off if she wanted to.

Some of us who say addiction is all about choice....'come across as the ignorant morons they are' (I thought insulting members was against the rules??).

May I'd respectfully suggest that the generalised insult you've just banded about, be tapered ... there are quite a few on this forum who have had loved ones destroyed by the very same thing and do indeed have much very personal experience upon which to put forward such views. Having such a view does not make any of us 'the ignorant morans they are'

For you to equate it - in any respect - to a character in a soap - does nothing but make a farce out of the serious nature of some drug taking. Legal or not.

Out of interest: what speciality do you have to say that 'she obviously couldn't have shook the need for drugs off if she wanted to'? Are you party to some information on AW on a personal level that allows you to make such affirmation on her psyche?

[Stu]

Originally Posted by Zee

No, taking addictive substances is a choice. That's the point I and others I assume are trying to make, and that's where the lack of pity stems from. It's obviously sad to see somebody struggle with addiction, but I can also be unsympathetic towards them for making that choice in the first place at the same time. I am not an ignorant moron. She, or someone who loved her, could have at least tried, I think people were more interested in taking advantage of her by making money out of her rather than helping her. It is physically possible to remove yourself from harmful circumstances when you have the kind of money she had, if you really wanted to, by virtue of her not doing that, I therefore think that she didn't really want to quit and again, have no sympathy. It's just an ideological thing I think, people tend to have concrete views on addiction.

Absurd. ''Taking addictive substances is a choice'' is an oxymoron. Once addiction to a drug like Heroin takes hold your body demands it or it will get very, very ill. It's possible to quit ... it's always possible to quit ... but your psyche also changes and deludes you into thinking that taking drugs is the best option. That's why it's called addiction.

Think about that for a moment. I hate to sound patronising but it's so, so hard to understand unless you have been there. Your mind changes. Your very own mind. You suffer damn near hallucinations. Delusions. Physical and mental cravings telling you that you need drugs. Neurological quips that can override that small voice of sense.

Surely you also see the folly in saying she had a huge amount of money so she could have quit? A huge amount of money also means easier and faster means to get drugs.

I absoloutely agree with you on her family though. From what I understand they played a huge role in pushing her to drugs and keeping her there.

[tmi]

I have dealings on a daily basis with drug users . They life is all about drugs and how they can raise they're money to get it, usually stealing from personal experience. The drug must be mind blowing good for them to keep needing the stuff. People say the feeling they get is of euphoria.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Pyramid*

Some of us who say addiction is all about choice....'come across as the ignorant morons they are' (I thought insulting members was against the rules??).

May I'd respectfully suggest that the generalised insult you've just banded about, be tapered ... there are quite a few on this forum who have had loved ones destroyed by the very same thing and do indeed have much very personal experience upon which to put forward such views. Having such a view does not make any of us 'the ignorant morans they are'

For you to equate it - in any respect - to a character in a soap - does nothing but make a farce out of the serious nature of some drug taking. Legal or not.

Out of interest: what speciality do you have to say that 'she obviously couldn't have shook the need for drugs off if she wanted to'? Are you party to some information on AW on a personal level that allows you to make such affirmation on her psyche?

Whooooosh.

Go look for an argument elsewhere Pyramid, I'm not biting tonight.

[Pyramid*]

Originally Posted by Stu

Well said. Pyramid herself has sampled drug addiction - namely Nicotine - yet refuses to legitamise my comparative arguments which are entirely credible. Tobacco slowly kills you and slowly reels you in. Crack and Heroin can kill you much faster and reel you in much faster. They are far, far, far more pleasing than tobacco.

Any regular smoker should have absoloutely symptahy and understanding for how horrific a hardcore drug addiction can be. I refuse to see the point in any 'she got what she deserved' or 'well my uncle ...' style arguments.

I'm betting she didn't actually want to die and like I said at the top of the thread ... the buck stops there for me. And even if she did screw it up for herself ... I feel sorry for her. What's the harm in that? It's a lost life for christ sake.

That's all I'm going to say on the matter before it gets messy. I've articulated myself as much as I can.

Since when did anyone die from from having a few too many fags one Saturday afternoon at the age of 27?

What happened to your prevous thought that smoking shouldn't be used as a comparison ... as you stated in your earlier post - I thought you didn't think it had any place in this type of discussion: or is it only smoking when it's referred to hash/weed/bit of skunk.

It took me twenty four hours to stop smoking dope after a daily four year habit. It's far from perfect but it shoudln't even be brought up as a point of comparison in addiction debates.

[Marc]

I DON'T WANT TO CLoSE ANOTHER THREAD BECAUSE OF ARGUING.

STOP STOP STOP STOP STOP STOP STOP STOP STOP STOP STOP STOP STOP STOP STOP STOP STOP STOP STOP STOP STOP STOP STOP STOP STOP STOP STOP

[Z]

Originally Posted by Stu

Absurd. ''Taking addictive substances is a choice'' is an oxymoron. Once addiction to a drug like Heroin takes hold your body demands it or it will get very, very ill. It's possible to quit ... it's always possible to quit ... but your psyche also changes and deludes you into thinking that taking drugs is the best option. That's why it's called addiction.

Think about that for a moment. I hate to sound patronising but it's so, so hard to understand unless you have been there. Your mind changes. Your very own mind. You suffer damn near hallucinations. Delusions. Physical and mental cravings telling you that you need drugs. Neurological quips that can override that small voice of sense.

Surely you also see the folly in saying she had a huge amount of money so she could have quit? A huge amount of money also means easier and faster means to get drugs.

I absoloutely agree with you on her family though. From what I understand they played a huge role in pushing her to drugs and keeping her there.

...yes, I'm not talking about the act of taking drugs though, I'm talking about the choice to actually take them in the first place. When you get offered, and you say yes. She's not a woman who was tricked into sex trafficking, nor was she born to a mother addicted to drugs and therefore came out of the womb addicted to them - she made a choice at some point in her life to take drugs.

Absolutely, re: her money, but if she truly wanted to quit drugs, all she had to do was take that first step of removing herself from an environment where she could access drugs. Move to the countryside. Go to an obscure island. Lock yourself in and never come out again. There are options, and she had the money to utilise them, which isn't an option available to many drug addicts.

[Stu]

Originally Posted by Stu

Absurd. ''Taking addictive substances is a choice'' is an oxymoron. Once addiction to a drug like Heroin takes hold your body demands it or it will get very, very ill. It's possible to quit ... it's always possible to quit ... but your psyche also changes and deludes you into thinking that taking drugs is the best option. That's why it's called addiction.

Think about that for a moment. I hate to sound patronising but it's so, so hard to understand unless you have been there. Your mind changes. Your very own mind. You suffer damn near hallucinations. Delusions. Physical and mental cravings telling you that you need drugs. Neurological quips that can override that small voice of sense.

Surely you also see the folly in saying she had a huge amount of money so she could have quit? A huge amount of money also means easier and faster means to get drugs.

I absoloutely agree with you on her family though. From what I understand they played a huge role in pushing her to drugs and keeping her there.

I hate to quote myself but to think of a good comparison :

Imagine a schizophrenic person trying to convince themselves that the voices in their head are just that. Voices.

That's what hardcore drug addiction is. The worst of it. How come schizophrenics cannot just choose to be sane?

Drug addiction at it's worst is a mental illness.

[Pyramid*]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

Whooooosh.

Go look for an argument elsewhere Pyramid, I'm not biting tonight.

No argument here Dezzy.

I'm putting over my point. Nothing more, nothing less.