[Livia]

Originally Posted by Pyramid*

You think it surprising that one woman can see the failure to control birth rates in undeveloped countries with decades of famine behind them and should not suggest sterilisation after a woman has borne one or two children as a possible solution?

I'd call that an intelligent solution. Being a woman doesn't mean I have to share the desire to allow women to continue breeding and bringing more mouths into the world than they can already feed, clothe, etc.

The reason so many die in childbirth - or children die young is down to the very lifestyle they are living: in famine and destitution. Much of all that is connected would slow down and cease. It's long known that the usual methods of contraception are shunned. If they can't help themselves in some way.....

I think it surprising that as a woman, you seem to be totally unaware of the plight of women in the developing world. Because the usual methods of contraception are shunned, you're going to force a woman to be sterilised. Well, that's not a new idea, Hitler thought along the same lines: they're worth less than us so we can decide to sterilise them.

The reason many die in childbirth is that access to healthcare is sporadic at best, and in some Islamic countries women are denied heathcare all together. Many women in the third World have no choice because they have no power. Education is the only thing that will save them in the long run, but like access to healthcare, access to education is not a right for women.

Finally, to refer to them as "breeding" likens them to animals.

[Pyramid*]

Originally Posted by Livia

I think it surprising that as a woman, you seem to be totally unaware of the plight of women in the developing world. Because the usual methods of contraception are shunned, you're going to force a woman to be sterilised. Well, that's not a new idea, Hitler thought along the same lines: they're worth less than us so we can decide to sterilise them.

The reason many die in childbirth is that access to healthcare is sporadic at best, and in some Islamic countries women are denied heathcare all together. Many women in the third World have no choice because they have no power. Education is the only thing that will save them in the long run, but like access to healthcare, access to education is not a right for women.

Finally, to refer to them as "breeding" likens them to animals.

I think as a woman - and one that thinks if a mother cannot feed the children she already has - nor feed herself thus endangering both her life and the life of her 'baby to be' - to bring another mouth to fed, clothe etc is sheer idiocy.

I don't need some lecturing educational lesson from you. I'm very well aware why the normal methods of contraception are not successful. Plenty are privvy to education by means of volunteers and various charities and organisations who set out to do exactly this - and as you say, these methods are shunned.

The Chinese introduced a similar policy - to deal with overpopulation.

I will refer to people breeding if I so chose. That is precisely what we do... breed. If you don't like that word, that's your issue, not mine.

Quit with the dramatics and Hitler. Goodwins Law kicks in - you lost the debate Livia.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Pyramid*

I think as a woman - and one that thinks if a mother cannot feed the children she already has - nor feed herself thus endangering both her life and the life of her 'baby to be' - to bring another mouth to fed, clothe etc is sheer idiocy.

I don't need some lecturing educational lesson from you. I'm very well aware why the normal methods of contraception are not successful. Plenty are privvy to education by means of volunteers and various charities and organisations who set out to do exactly this - and as you say, these methods are shunned.

The Chinese introduced a similar policy - to deal with overpopulation.

I will refer to people breeding if I so chose. That is precisely what we do... breed. If you don't like that word, that's your issue, not mine.

Quit with the dramatics and Hitler. Goodwins Law kicks in - you lost the debate Livia.

I am not trying to lecture you. I wouldn't dream of lecturing someone who thinks they are right all the time, what would be the point?

Yes, the Chinese have used the "two kids" method. They're heavily into Human Rights in China aren't they. Look a little closer into it if you're going to hold it up as an ideal.

I haven't "lost" anything. There are no winners or losers in a debate like this. Godwin's law does not apply if we're discussing an idea you've had that Hitler had first. You think no one is ever going to make that analogy because you stumbled over Godwin's Law and you apply it where it does not apply? You're always banging on about how your opinions are your opinions, the same goes for me. If you're going to post contentious ideas you've got to be prepared for people to challenge you on them from time to time. You are not always right. No one is.

[Pyramid*]

Originally Posted by Livia

I am not trying to lecture you. I wouldn't dream of lecturing someone who thinks they are right all the time, what would be the point?

Yes, the Chinese have used the "two kids" method. They're heavily into Human Rights in China aren't they. Look a little closer into it if you're going to hold it up as an ideal.

I haven't "lost" anything. There are no winners or losers in a debate like this. Godwin's law does not apply if we're discussing an idea you've had that Hitler had first. You think no one is ever going to make that analogy because you stumbled over Godwin's Law and you apply it where it does not apply? You're always banging on about how your opinions are your opinions, the same goes for me. If you're going to post contentious ideas you've got to be prepared for people to challenge you on them from time to time. You are not always right. No one is.

I don't believe I said I was right. Neither did I state that the Chinese method of population control was an Ideal, so let's stop misquoting or making mountains out of molehills.

I said I don't need a lecture from you. Whilst you are on the subject of Human Rights... I don't see you making any mention of the Human Rights of the unborn children being brought into a world that they have to be borne to starve in the most awful way. Yes, let's forget about their Human Rights. Let's allow woman who cannot care, fed, clothe their current family - and continue to let them breed, brining more mouths into the world that they cannot feed - and KNOW that they cannot feed.

If you are going to post comparisons to Hitler - you have lost the ability to have any form of reasonable discussion. It's really as simply as that.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Pyramid*

I don't believe I said I was right. Neither did I state that the Chinese method of population control was an Ideal, so let's stop misquoting or making mountains out of molehills.

I said I don't need a lecture from you. Whilst you are on the subject of Human Rights... I don't see you making any mention of the Human Rights of the unborn children being brought into a world that they have to be borne to starve in the most awful way. Yes, let's forget about their Human Rights. Let's allow woman who cannot care, fed, clothe their current family - and continue to let them breed, brining more mouths into the world that they cannot feed - and KNOW that they cannot feed.

If you are going to post comparisons to Hitler - you have lost the ability to have any form of reasonable discussion. It's really as simply as that.

No, it's as simple as this: I posted a comparison to Hitler because he supported enforced sterlisation, just like you claim to. It was relevant. Like you've said in numerous threads, that is my opinion and if you don't like it, that's your issue, not mine.

Your comments about Human Rights come across as hysterical. I said earlier that education is the only way things will change. But that doesn't mean educating just the women, because in all your posts you've laid the blame at the feet of women in the Third World - the ones with the least power - and ignored men in the Third World - the ones with all the power.

I've said all I need to say on this topic. I have no intention of carrying on this discussion and watch you get more and more belligerent because you feel that no one's opinion carries any weight except your own.

[Pyramid*]

Originally Posted by Livia

No, it's as simple as this: I posted a comparison to Hitler because he supported enforced sterlisation, just like you claim to. It was relevant. Like you've said in numerous threads, that is my opinion and if you don't like it, that's your issue, not mine.

Your comments about Human Rights come across as hysterical. I said earlier that education is the only way things will change. But that doesn't mean educating just the women, because in all your posts you've laid the blame at the feet of women in the Third World - the ones with the least power - and ignored men in the Third World - the ones with all the power.

I've said all I need to say on this topic. I have no intention of carrying on this discussion and watch you get more and more belligerent because you feel that no one's opinion carries any weight except your own.

Hysterical? I think not. I think I simply touched upon something you yourself gave no consideration to, and I suspect you simply didn't like that - whether or not there is truth in that, I have no idea, that is however, my opinion. I respect anyone and everyone's right to their own opinion and manage to do it without asserting that someone's comments are hysterical - my point in respect of the Human Rights of either the unborne child or the babies born to such a life are valid. VERY.

I lay the blame at the woman's feet Livia for one very simply basic reason. They are the ones who fall pregnant. It's not difficult to figure out why I feel that the main responsibility lies with the females and not the males.

[tmi]

Originally Posted by Livia

I think it surprising that as a woman, you seem to be totally unaware of the plight of women in the developing world. Because the usual methods of contraception are shunned, you're going to force a woman to be sterilised. Well, that's not a new idea, Hitler thought along the same lines: they're worth less than us so we can decide to sterilise them.

The reason many die in childbirth is that access to healthcare is sporadic at best, and in some Islamic countries women are denied heathcare all together. Many women in the third World have no choice because they have no power. Education is the only thing that will save them in the long run, but like access to healthcare, access to education is not a right for women.

Finally, to refer to them as "breeding" likens them to animals.

I think knowledge is power, it is like teaching a child not to touch things that are hot they get burned. I think these women should have pse lessons like in primary schoool and comprehensive schools. If they are given the education they will perhaps take means of contraception. What is the bets if things dont change they will be in the same boat, ten years down the line.

[Pyramid*]

Originally Posted by tmi

I think knowledge is power, it is like teaching a child not to touch things that are hot they get burned. I think these women should have pse lessons like in primary schoool and comprehensive schools. If they are given the education they will perhaps take means of contraception. What is the bets if things dont change they will be in the same boat, ten years down the line.

Funny you mention time scales tmi. When I was at primary school... 40 years ago, we used to put pennies into something called (way back then), Black Babies. For this very purpose - to help educate, provide basic irrigation, basic schooling, basic medical facilites bla bla bla. 40 years on and still it continues.

[tmi]

Originally Posted by Pyramid*

Funny you mention time scales tmi. When I was at primary school... 40 years ago, we used to put pennies into something called (way back then), Black Babies. For this very purpose - to help educate, provide basic irrigation, basic schooling, basic medical facilites bla bla bla. 40 years on and still it continues.

I think they should be imposed with some kind of restrictions, we seem to think that we can invade Iraq and give them means to ends, so why not Africa. ....
ponders a moment .......that is an oil country although we only get 2% of the oil from there we seem to think we need to impose sanctions on the way the country is run. I think if two parents have Hiv perhaps they should not have children , its like giving a child a death sentence, I really do think they need education , If we didnt help them what would they do? I think its a lost cause unless they start knowing basic sexual education. FFs put a johnny on the end (condom). Only takes once or get of the stop before you need to unload.

[Pyramid*]

Originally Posted by tmi

I think they should be imposed with some kind of restrictions, we seem to think that we can invade Iraq and give them means to ends, so why not Africa. ....
ponders a moment .......that is an oil country although we only get 2% of the oil from there we seem to think we need to impose sanctions on the way the country is run. I think if two parents have Hiv perhaps they should not have children , its like giving a child a death sentence, I really do think they need education , If we didnt help them what would they do? I think its a lost cause unless they start knowing basic sexual education. FFs put a johnny on the end (condom). Only takes once or get of the stop before you need to unload.

Excellent point in respect of condoms / prevention of HIV and HIV infected children. Also there is a lot of rape in these countries.

But the problem is: many thousands of pounds are spent in 'educating' these woman on the matter of contraception - condoms etc. For various reasons, they chose not to use as well as the fact that given the location nipping to the local family health planning ... it just isn't available.

Sterilisation after one or two babies: that would have a dramatic effect on the over population: together with stopping babies, resulting from rape, being born, many of whom are as you say, HIV positive.

[tmi]

Originally Posted by Pyramid*

Excellent point in respect of condoms / prevention of HIV and HIV infected children. Also there is a lot of rape in these countries.

But the problem is: many thousands of pounds are spent in 'educating' these woman on the matter of contraception - condoms etc. For various reasons, they chose not to use as well as the fact that given the location nipping to the local family health planning ... it just isn't available.

Sterilisation after one or two babies: that would have a dramatic effect on the over population: together with stopping babies, resulting from rape, being born, many of whom are as you say, HIV positive.

Waves to mid sent you email, uv sends her regards, I think we can all throw ideas at the things we want to happen, but will we see major changes in our lifetime, has anything changed since band aid, if they have people like Britain and countries around the world throwing money at them why havent these issues been addressed. I wonder what state are country would be in if we didnt have any education. I tell you a little story, someone I know has two children and they put a limit of crap they eat, then someone says there should be no restriction they are young they will wear it off yes, that maybe the case but if the bad habits are not monitored they may turn into worst eating habits, the funny part of the story is the one who said no restrictions is at least a few stone overweight and the children are as well , who is right, education what your need.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by tmi

I think knowledge is power, it is like teaching a child not to touch things that are hot they get burned. I think these women should have pse lessons like in primary schoool and comprehensive schools. If they are given the education they will perhaps take means of contraception. What is the bets if things dont change they will be in the same boat, ten years down the line.

Yes, you're right - knowledge is power. But it's not just the women that need to be taught.

[tmi]

Originally Posted by Livia

Yes, you're right - knowledge is power. But it's not just the women that need to be taught.

Yes I agree the men should be taught has well but it is the women who carry the children, how many men take contraceptive pills
Hiv should be priority Both sexes, contraceptive more with women.