[Scarlett.]

Originally Posted by arista

this is on the Main thread


Whe do not need loads of threads again

It's a debate seperate from the main riot one.

[arista]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

Punish the criminals, not their families. It'll serve them right if this just stirs up more riots since they're punishing innocents for the actions of a few idiots. It's a stupid emotional reaction that has Daily Mail written all over it. Actions like these will make things worse.

No this was a public vote.

Not the D.Mail

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

Punish the criminals, not their families. It'll serve them right if this just stirs up more riots since they're punishing innocents for the actions of a few idiots. It's a stupid emotional reaction that has Daily Mail written all over it. Actions like these will make things worse.

Very well said Dezzy.
Also I think really a policy and rule forced into being like this one from any Govt,on the wave of the hysteria currently around the events takes the establishment down to the level of the mindless people involved in the riots.

No way should it be fair or legal to punish families,who have not been involved in the rioting or the proceeds thereof. It is simply as wrong as the rioting itself.

The govt and Councils who bring such things in for those involved in the rioting and then extend any punishment to those of their family who they live with, will come to rue the day and pay a heavier price even than now for doing so.

[lostalex]

I think some of the people arguing here are arguing against the idea of petitions more than they are arguing against the idea of kicking looters out and letting hardworking families into their flats.

[joeysteele]

Since when does Govt and Local Authorities in the main for that matter usually or ever take notice of public opinion,only when it suits some of their own idealogical thinking.
Govts have ignored demonstrations, petitions and voters and citizens screaming for all sorts for decades.
Odd on this 'very extreme' issue then they seem to want to listen now.

[Scarlett.]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

Punish the criminals, not their families. It'll serve them right if this just stirs up more riots since they're punishing innocents for the actions of a few idiots. It's a stupid emotional reaction that has Daily Mail written all over it. Actions like these will make things worse.

Yep, the government are being childish in the way this is all being dealt with, they shouldn't have just bowed down to the general public - this is the sort of issue that needs to be debated in parliament before getting the go ahead.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Chewy

Yep, the government are being childish in the way this is all being dealt with, they shouldn't have just bowed down to the general public - this is the sort of issue that needs to be debated in parliament before getting the go ahead.

I agree and also lot more consultation from people who know what they are talking about too, I would have thought this Govt in particular had already had enough of making policy on a whim and then having to consult and discuss and backtrack on such badly and wrongly set out policies in the first place.

Punish those involved in the rioting,yes, no one else though.

[arista]

Originally Posted by lostalex

I think some of the people arguing here are arguing against the idea of petitions more than they are arguing against the idea of kicking looters out and letting hardworking families into their flats.

Yes The New family are Not Looters




Good Point.

[arista]

Social Tenant Contract
has Conditions of that housing.



If you break those conditions
and Set Fires and Loot.


You Must be Evicted.

It goes to Court
They get Evicted.

[Tom4784]

I don't think there's no defending this, it's wrong because you'll end affecting people who haven't commited any crimes and punishing innocents to get at a few guilty chavs is just not worth it. How would you feel if a family member commited a crime and then you were made to feel the brunt of the consequences just because you share blood?

It's guilt by association and it's wrong.

[lostalex]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

I don't think there's no defending this, it's wrong because you'll end affecting people who haven't commited any crimes and punishing innocents to get at a few guilty chavs is just not worth it. How would you feel if a family member commited a crime and then you were made to feel the brunt of the consequences just because you share blood?

It's guilt by association and it's wrong.

you're missing the point. It is these FAMILIES which should be taking responsibility for their children. Where do you think these wayward children learned this behavior?? YOU make it sound like parents cannot be held responsible for their own children.

If the parents arn't held responsible for them, then WHO should be???

[arista]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

I don't think there's no defending this, it's wrong because you'll end affecting people who haven't commited any crimes and punishing innocents to get at a few guilty chavs is just not worth it. How would you feel if a family member commited a crime and then you were made to feel the brunt of the consequences just because you share blood?

It's guilt by association and it's wrong.

But that 18 year old is Under a Housing Contract
These are Current Laws.


It goes to Court.

You can stand out the Court, if you wish.

But the UK Public agree to Hit Back Hard.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by lostalex

you're missing the point. It is these FAMILIES which should be taking responsibility for their children. Where do you think these wayward children learned this behavior?? YOU make it sound like parents cannot be held responsible for their own children.

If the parents arn't held responsible for them, then WHO should be???

It's not always the parent's fault though, are all your failures as a person down to your parents? No, because we're all our own people and we've all got a mind of our own. I'm not saying that a lot of the time it is down to poor parenting but does that warrant such a stupid blanket method of dealing with the riots?

Punish the people who went out and rioted instead of trying to vindicate them by playing the blame game.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Its in the tenancy agreement.

/end of.

[arista]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

Its in the tenancy agreement.

/end of.

Yes thats
what goes to Court.



This is Legal,

[lostalex]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

It's not always the parent's fault though, are all your failures as a person down to your parents? No, because we're all our own people and we've all got a mind of our own. I'm not saying that a lot of the time it is down to poor parenting but does that warrant such a stupid blanket method of dealing with the riots?

Punish the people who went out and rioted instead of trying to vindicate them by playing the blame game.

Well if they are grown adults, for whom their parents cannot be held responsible, then WHY are they still living with their parents at all?? If they are grown adults, responsible for themselves, then they should be out on their own. And if the parents don't kick them out, then everyone get's kicked out.

Parents need to start taking responsibility too. This is not just some kids that turned out bad, and i think you know that. This is a cultural problem. Culture is learned at home first. Does the government and teachers, and clergy and community have some responsibility too?? yes, but not NEARLY as much as the parents.

These problems start at home, so it's time the government starts focusing their efforts on the HOMES. Not on the schools, not on the churches, not on the local councils, IN THE HOME. And the best way to stop this cycle is to kick out the kics causing the problem, cause how many of these looters have younger brothers and sisters that look up top them, alot of these homes don't have father figures, so who are the younger brothers looking up to? these out of control older brothers or out of control deadbeat *live with mum boyfriend types*, that shouldn't even be at that home anyway. get them out.

That's my 2 cents worth.

[joeysteele]

I know little about tenancy agreements but for me morally and in the name of right, if you have a family in a house, Parents,maybe a Grandparent and then 2 or 3 children/teenagers living there too, then one of the children/teenagers goes out and got involved in these riots.
I would consider it not only ridiculous but that it should be illegal, to not just put out of that home, the child/teen that was involved in the riots but to then go on to evict all those others too.

Quite frankly if that became the new laws of the land,then I fear for the UK.Usually I see all other's views but if anyone believes that in the above scenario,it would be right and justifiable to punish all those other people in that home too then that worries me bigtime as to the credibility of the UK.

[arista]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

I know little about tenancy agreements but for me morally and in the name of right, if you have a family in a house, Parents,maybe a Grandparent and then 2 or 3 children/teenagers living there too, then one of the children/teenagers goes out and got involved in these riots.
I would consider it not only ridiculous but that it should be illegal, to not just put out of that home, the child/teen that was involved in the riots but to then go on to evict all those others too.

Quite frankly if that became the new laws of the land,then I fear for the UK.Usually I see all other's views but if anyone believes that in the above scenario,it would be right and justifiable to punish all those other people in that home too then that worries me bigtime as to the credibility of the UK.

These are Current Council Agreements
That mother should have kicked that 18 year old son out.
Its all that 18 year old Criminal Looters fault.


It goes to Court.
Expect the World Media outside it.

[lostalex]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

I know little about tenancy agreements but for me morally and in the name of right, if you have a family in a house, Parents,maybe a Grandparent and then 2 or 3 children/teenagers living there too, then one of the children/teenagers goes out and got involved in these riots.
I would consider it not only ridiculous but that it should be illegal, to not just put out of that home, the child/teen that was involved in the riots but to then go on to evict all those others too.

Quite frankly if that became the new laws of the land,then I fear for the UK.Usually I see all other's views but if anyone believes that in the above scenario,it would be right and justifiable to punish all those other people in that home too then that worries me bigtime as to the credibility of the UK.

So basically you are advocating, that a family of misfits, should be given a home BY the government, at the tax payers expense, as a "home base" from which to terrorize the rest of the community? IN what freaking universe does that make sense to you?

[Livia]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

Since when does Govt and Local Authorities in the main for that matter usually or ever take notice of public opinion,only when it suits some of their own idealogical thinking.
Govts have ignored demonstrations, petitions and voters and citizens screaming for all sorts for decades.
Odd on this 'very extreme' issue then they seem to want to listen now.

A little unfair, I think. The present government has made several u-turns on its thinking in the face of public opinion. Of course they were criticised for it just as they would have been criticised for not taking public feeling into account. For instance, hey u-turned on the sale of the forests because the public made it clear they did not want it. That started off with a petition...

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

It's not always the parent's fault though, are all your failures as a person down to your parents? No, because we're all our own people and we've all got a mind of our own. I'm not saying that a lot of the time it is down to poor parenting but does that warrant such a stupid blanket method of dealing with the riots?

Punish the people who went out and rioted instead of trying to vindicate them by playing the blame game.

Parents are responsible for their children until they reach the age of 18. That's the law. Punish parents who do not take responsibility. Currently we shy away from it, and that's taught people to completely disassociate themselves from their kids wrongdoing. If we did hold them responsible - as we are able to do under the law - it might send out the message that you can't pop out kids without taking full responsibility for them and teaching them what's right and what's wrong.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by lostalex

So basically you are advocating, that a family of misfits, should be given a home BY the government, at the tax payers expense, as a "home base" from which to terrorize the rest of the community? IN what freaking universe does that make sense to you?

I am advocating, not how you are spinning and twisting what I said but advocating that far from a family of misfits, I put in the scenario a family normal and general, where only one person has stepped out of line and joined these riots,none of the others.
Where did I ever call them all a family of misfits?

It will never make sense to me to punish the innocent for one or others wrongdoing.
I am far from the only one on here who think it's wrong to put out of a home a whole family,where only one person has been doing great wrong,none of the others.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Livia

A little unfair, I think. The present government has made several u-turns on its thinking in the face of public opinion. Of course they were criticised for it just as they would have been criticised for not taking public feeling into account. For instance, hey u-turned on the sale of the forests because the public made it clear they did not want it. That started off with a petition...

I don't think I was being that unfair, the NHS shambles was one of the worst public exercises I have come across in the last 2 Govts.
I feel the Conservatives are always having to look over their shoulders at how the Lib Dems react to things and then have the need to backtrack on some policies rather rushed through.

I feel this move as to evicting members of family not involved in or convicted of the riots,will be another where later, the Lib Dems will turn away again and think again once their so called executive and party activists demand them to.
Then there will be likely another mess to clear up.

It almost seems to me that the Lib Dems appear to support for the sake of stable Govt, the policies put forward by the Conservatves but later when their party shouts them down on it,they then claim the credit for making the Conservatives think again and backtracking and sometimes scrapping most of them altogether.

I still stand firmly on the point though that I will never believe punishing the innocent for one person's or others wrongdoing can be right,
Parents can get into deep trouble if they discipline their children too much and too harshly.
Throw then out when they do wrong,yes, but parents cannot be with them all the time and especially teenagers.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Livia

Parents are responsible for their children until they reach the age of 18. That's the law. Punish parents who do not take responsibility. Currently we shy away from it, and that's taught people to completely disassociate themselves from their kids wrongdoing. If we did hold them responsible - as we are able to do under the law - it might send out the message that you can't pop out kids without taking full responsibility for them and teaching them what's right and what's wrong.

Short of locking your kids in the house though, nailing their windows shut etc.(which is probably classed as child abuse) how on earth could you stop your child from joining in with what their mates are doing? Especially the late teenage children.

[arista]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Short of locking your kids in the house though, nailing their windows shut etc.(which is probably classed as child abuse) how on earth could you stop your child from joining in with what their mates are doing? Especially the late teenage children.

He is a 18year old
that has destroyed his Mums Future.



Sign Of The Times.