[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

It's a separate issue the NHS as no party had across the board reforms in their manifestos as to doing so, I however am really disgruntled with the reforms of the NHS, I have family who work in the NHS, from Doctors to Nurses who hate and detest the reforms being made.
It is the issue where for me,at the next election the Conservatives will not be trusted with it and will therefore lose that election.

How did they get the NHS reforms through in the first place though,only with the support of Nick Clegg and his Lib Dems, who also argued very strongly against any across the board NHS reforms.
None of the reforms could have taken place without the support in Parliament of Clegg and the Lib Dems, another good reason to cast the Lib Dems into a political abyss for a few decades at least.

Why is it a separate issue?
It would have been very interesting to be a fly on the wall during the decision making process, which policies were supported or shelved from both parties... The lib dems do seem to have come off very badly from this and I can just see the tories emerging unscathed, it makes me sick.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by kizzy

Why is it a separate issue?
It would have been very interesting to be a fly on the wall during the decision making process, which policies were supported or shelved from both parties... The lib dems do seem to have come off very badly from this and I can just see the tories emerging unscathed, it makes me sick.

I would think it obvious how the NHS is a separate issue because not one of the main parties,or in fact any other party in the UK claimed to have any plan to reform across the board the NHS in their manifestos so therefore never presented same to the electorate.

Unlike other policies such as cuts being made in the first year, Labour and Lib Dems against,Conservatives for.
Tuition fees, Labour leaving them as they were, Lib Dems wanting to abolish them, Conservatives planning to at least double them.
VAT increase, Libe Dems against, Labour mo plans to raise it, Conservaives likely to raise it.

Even the welfare and benefit reforms have gone much further than is acceptable in my view as to all I am learning about them, they lack compassion, undersatnding and fairness in many areas.
Another back step on fairness especially to the bedroom tax from the Lib Dems again.

How any reform, not in any part's manifesto, as the NHS reforms were not, can then become part of a coalition agreement when having been never presented to the voters at the election is beyond me but for the Lib Dems then to have supported those NHS reforms in spite of that is utterly beyond belief.

I raised the NHS because it is one other thing on a long list of policies they have supported in Parliament that they will be judged massively wrong for doing so and that they should also be apologising for.
It is the message that the Parliamentary Lib Dems are getting even from their own Councillors now,up and down the Nation, that has prompted this apology from Clegg, for over a year he has arrogantly stated it is time for them and the voters to move on from the tuition fees issue.

Now he claims to be apologising for it near 2 years on.
Clegg is worried,not sorry,he is likely to go down as the worst Liberal,(whatever), leader since before the war and he knows that, his party has known it for well over 18 months now.

I do agree that it is the coalition agreement that was wrong, this was the best chance ever since long before the war for the Lib Dems to get much more say and ring moderation and compassion to policies.
The Conservatives failed badly to get an overall majority in an election they should have walked in from, a discredited Labour Govt and a PM who made gaffe after gaffe.
They didn't walk in though they fell well short,the Lib Dems had enormous power there for their taking.
However,in order to get Lords reform and at least an AV voting system via referendum,they moved right back from their bargaining position and agreed to some unbelievable aspects of Conservative policy that were a world away from what they themselves believed in.

I keep saying it but tuition fees is the greatest example of that, how they can call a compromise of wanting to abolish tuition fees as opposed to the other party wanting to at least double them and then agree to support to treble them is unbelievable and has no sensible reasoning to it whatsoever.
Even to get some people taken out of paying tax altogether,they had to agree to a 10% cut in the 50p tax rate,also something they bitterly opposed.

Unbelievable from a party that was,by the voters, put into a position where no other party could have governed securely without their support.
Failing to deliver their principles and right and fair policies in such a scenario is failure in the highest degree.

Back to the NHS,which I believe is now an issue that will lead to even the Lib Dems not being seen as being able to be trusted with it either.
The NHS reforms will bring massive problems to the NHS, they were wrong to be planned without another election and the Lib Dems were 100% out of order to even entertain the idea of them, never mind support them. That's my view anyway.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

I would think it obvious how the NHS is a separate issue because not one of the main parties,or in fact any other party in the UK claimed to have any plan to reform across the board the NHS in their manifestos so therefore never presented same to the electorate.

Unlike other policies such as cuts being made in the first year, Labour and Lib Dems against,Conservatives for.
Tuition fees, Labour leaving them as they were, Lib Dems wanting to abolish them, Conservatives planning to at least double them.
VAT increase, Libe Dems against, Labour mo plans to raise it, Conservaives likely to raise it.

Even the welfare and benefit reforms have gone much further than is acceptable in my view as to all I am learning about them, they lack compassion, undersatnding and fairness in many areas.
Another back step on fairness especially to the bedroom tax from the Lib Dems again.

How any reform, not in any part's manifesto, as the NHS reforms were not, can then become part of a coalition agreement when having been never presented to the voters at the election is beyond me but for the Lib Dems then to have supported those NHS reforms in spite of that is utterly beyond belief.

I raised the NHS because it is one other thing on a long list of policies they have supported in Parliament that they will be judged massively wrong for doing so and that they should also be apologising for.
It is the message that the Parliamentary Lib Dems are getting even from their own Councillors now,up and down the Nation, that has prompted this apology from Clegg, for over a year he has arrogantly stated it is time for them and the voters to move on from the tuition fees issue.

Now he claims to be apologising for it near 2 years on.
Clegg is worried,not sorry,he is likely to go down as the worst Liberal,(whatever), leader since before the war and he knows that, his party has known it for well over 18 months now.

I do agree that it is the coalition agreement that was wrong, this was the best chance ever since long before the war for the Lib Dems to get much more say and ring moderation and compassion to policies.
The Conservatives failed badly to get an overall majority in an election they should have walked in from, a discredited Labour Govt and a PM who made gaffe after gaffe.
They didn't walk in though they fell well short,the Lib Dems had enormous power there for their taking.
However,in order to get Lords reform and at least an AV voting system via referendum,they moved right back from their bargaining position and agreed to some unbelievable aspects of Conservative policy that were a world away from what they themselves believed in.

I keep saying it but tuition fees is the greatest example of that, how they can call a compromise of wanting to abolish tuition fees as opposed to the other party wanting to at least double them and then agree to support to treble them is unbelievable and has no sensible reasoning to it whatsoever.
Even to get some people taken out of paying tax altogether,they had to agree to a 10% cut in the 50p tax rate,also something they bitterly opposed.

Unbelievable from a party that was,by the voters, put into a position where no other party could have governed securely without their support.
Failing to deliver their principles and right and fair policies in such a scenario is failure in the highest degree.

Back to the NHS,which I believe is now an issue that will lead to even the Lib Dems not being seen as being able to be trusted with it either.
The NHS reforms will bring massive problems to the NHS, they were wrong to be planned without another election and the Lib Dems were 100% out of order to even entertain the idea of them, never mind support them. That's my view anyway.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/elec...l#conservative
QUOTE:
'' Opening up the NHS to new independent and voluntary sector providers''

Well we can't say we were not warned at least.

It is unfair to suggest that the Libdems are a pushover, I think they are anything but. They do seem to have a hard time however defending the country against the political steamroller that is the tory party.
The Labour party have stuck the knife in following his apology, as it is like you say too little too late.
With an initial 19% 0f the cabinet ministers you would have thought he could do more...
God knows we all collectively willed it haha.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by kizzy

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/elec...l#conservative
QUOTE:
'' Opening up the NHS to new independent and voluntary sector providers''

Well we can't say we were not warned at least.

It is unfair to suggest that the Libdems are a pushover, I think they are anything but. They do seem to have a hard time however defending the country against the political steamroller that is the tory party.
The Labour party have stuck the knife in following his apology, as it is like you say too little too late.
With an initial 19% 0f the cabinet ministers you would have thought he could do more...
God knows we all collectively willed it haha.

I take your point at the start completely, despite the Conservatives stating they had no plans to make across the board reforms of the NHS,I had my doubts, I have a Cousin who is a Doctor in the NHS, he described the NHS as on its knees by 1997.
It was one of the resons I could not bring myself to vote Conservative in 2010.

I did however, hope for a great deal more from the Coalition, I supported the formation of it but hoped to see massive,not token compromises from both parties.
I hoped for more consensus, more compassion, just and fairer policies although I expected to be fair to both, little in the way of any good news for at least 3 to 4 years.

I see virtually no compassion,or many just and fair policies either as we are now halfway through and still more rotten and in my view,many more near heartless and totally unfair policies towards the weakest and most vulnerable in society still to come in the next 18 months.
They have lost me for sure,Coalition Govt has not worked, the deficit will be nowhere near all gone by 2015 as was the main aim of this Coalition,in fact after reducing it by something like 25% only in 2 years,it is in fact, to all reports, rising again.

I really do near believe now Labour needs to do or say very little to win next time,I even doubt they would need the Lib Dems at all.
The reason only 36% supported the Conservatives in 2010,in my view,was becasue they feared the more extreme and sledgehammer polices towards certian sections of society.
I hoped when they failed to get a mandate for their policies that they would moderate them greatly and that the Lib Dems would ensure that in fact happened.
Apart from token gestures,that hasn't happened at all.

I rarely if ever agree with Harriett Har(person)man,she does however seemingly make a good point as to this apology though, that I already hear a great number agreeing with.
She said something that went like, far from being the brake on the Conservatives the Lib Dems became their accomplices.
For Nick Clegg, I do almost believe that will be his political epitaph.

[bbfan1991]

Funny song.

Tbh Labour are being made out that they can save everyone from the big bad coalition again when ALL the politicial parties are as bad as each other and have paid a big part in messing up this country.

None of them cannot be trusted at all!

[Pyramid*]

Originally Posted by bbfan1991

Funny song.

Tbh Labour are being made out that they can save everyone from the big bad coalition again when ALL the politicial parties are as bad as each other and have paid a big part in messing up this country.

None of them cannot be trusted at all!

I'd agree with the latter part: and let's be honest: it's not until any new government in put in place: that they get to see the 'real truth' as to what they have inherited from the last one: which I don't doubt for one second, massively impacts on any 'promises' they perhaps genuinely did want to bring into play.

[bbfan1991]

They always like the shifting the blame strategies.

Conservatives will argue that Labour had a long stint in power and look what state we got into before they took over and Labour will argue that the Tories are to blame this, that and the other along with the Lib Dems so the needs of the people are being put to one side, sadly.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by bbfan1991

They always like the shifting the blame strategies.

Conservatives will argue that Labour had a long stint in power and look what state we got into before they took over and Labour will argue that the Tories are to blame this, that and the other along with the Lib Dems so the needs of the people are being put to one side, sadly.

I personally don't hold with this they didn't know the real situation until they get into power thing, policies and promises cannot be made worthless because things are worse than you believed they were.
Policies should be planned with an expectation of the worst.

I take your point in your first post where you said none could be trusted, in likely fact, that was what the voters thought in 2010 too.
Following 18 years of unbroken strong Conservative rule then 13 years of unbroken Labour strong rule too.
It's likely why neither Labour or the Conservatives won the election,only led it.
Not therefore getting a clear mandate to implement those policies.

I hoped for the Coalition to accept that verdict from the voters and set out to be as fully consensus in debating what policies were kept as part of the coalition agreement and also as to how more moderate those policies became.
Sadly that has not happened at all.

So the Country now knows this coalition is not the answer either.
Voters are then,in my view, left with a hobson's choice in 2015.
With all the measures still to come in next year and through 2014, I can however only see this lot being turfed out for the massive lack of compassion in the policies enacted.
Not to mention its failure as to the deficit.

[Pyramid*]

Originally Posted by bbfan1991

They always like the shifting the blame strategies.

Conservatives will argue that Labour had a long stint in power and look what state we got into before they took over and Labour will argue that the Tories are to blame this, that and the other along with the Lib Dems so the needs of the people are being put to one side, sadly.

the thing is: 'we' (the every day punter) will never be in a position to say otherwise: but this is one area that I do feel any new government going into power has to face: the reality of what the previous one left behind: and I'm pretty sure regardless of which party: there will be hidden horrors that probably sink the hearts of any newly elected government. That I don't doubt for a second.