[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Livia

Everyone's an expert.

Edit: I've just seen Kazanne's reply to Kizzy. For the sake of clarity, this post wasn't aimed at anyone in particular... before there's a whole drama.

Nobody is an expert, not even it seems those who are in positions of power and expertise in their field...thats the problem =)

[Omah]

Originally Posted by kizzy

Nobody is an expert, not even it seems those who are in positions of power and expertise in their field...thats the problem =)

It seems that parliamentary politics is a career in itself nowadays - the idle rich have nothing better to do and the rest can't or won't get a proper job ..... we end up with a load of shambolic amateurs making up economic policy from secondary school primers .....

[Kazanne]

Originally Posted by Livia

Everyone's an expert.

Edit: I've just seen Kazanne's reply to Kizzy. For the sake of clarity, this post wasn't aimed at anyone in particular... before there's a whole drama.

Livia,that just made me laugh

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Omah

It seems that parliamentary politics is a career in itself nowadays - the idle rich have nothing better to do and the rest can't or won't get a proper job ..... we end up with a load of shambolic amateurs making up economic policy from secondary school primers .....

Agreed, a lot of ya-ya's as my dad called them, delegate the real work to some lacky, sack them if it goes tits up and take sole credit for any success.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by kazanne

Good things can't be rushed Joey they have cut the deficit by a quarter already,given time they might just get us on our feet again,that's unless someone comes along to destroy the process!!

I hoped for good success for the Coalition kazanne,however,no matter what I do in my life, if I have a goal and plan a means to get to that goal but it is taking me too long to succeed,I look for a better way.
Labour I felt were a total joke in 2010,I didn't blame them for the financial crisis though, okay they could have done more to control things in the UK but they had no real control over the collapse in all other Countries which still would have massively affected the UK even if we'd had the foresight to prepare for it.

Labour though,had a plan to cut the deficit in 4 years,making 20% less cuts and protecting the fragile recovery by not making severe cuts in the first year.

It was argued by the Conservatives and the Lib Dems, that was dangerous and unambitious and to still have a deficit barely halved by 2015 would be a disaster for the UK.
Rightly with a stronger plan, they formed a Coalition to all but clear the deficit by 2015, make more severe cuts from the first year,this they said would reduce the deficit quickest and protect the fragile recovery.
That simple has not happened, the cuts in the first year have had a devastating effect and took us into a double dip recession,the heartless welfare reforms and even more heartless ATOS testing has been in effect a hammer taken to the most vulnerable people in society with much more pain and with more heartless reforms still to be made all through next year.

The deficit was reduced by only 25% in the whole half of this Parliament,2 and a half years, it is now rising again due to the Coalitions new borrowing needs.
That is failure by any means the way I look at things and I think this Govt is too reforming, it should have waited to plan these reforms and look for other ways that wouldn't cause distress to the weakest in society.

I hoped the failure of the Conservatives to win an overall majority and therefore not get endorsements for the severity of their policies in the election and then having the Lib Dems in Coalition would have had a massively moderating effect on those extreme plans of reform,making sure too that compassion was a main order of the day as to any reforms.

That did not happen either, I find it sad that I heard from David Cameron today no understanding and compassion for the weakest and most vulnerable or indeed any let up in the hammer being used against them.
He said he is on the side of the risk takers, what risk takers? It was the risk taking Banks that helped bring about this Global financial mess,on the side of the likes of them.

We have a major question as to what to do in the future after the 2015 election as these are staying on this failed track, although they argue things are getting better because they are getting worse slower.
The answers for me are that moderates and consensus politicians from all parties should be planning the way forward.
That is never likely to happen but for me, one thing is sure,after this speech today by the Prime Minister, the answers are nowhere to be found now in this Coalition.
For me also.the NHS reforms will see that neither of the Coalition parties are trusted with that after the next election.

Whether Labour could have done it or not in reality, their modest reforms,the plan to only halve the deficit in 4 years and avoid really severe cuts to the most vulnerable in society,especially in the first year and also making 20% less of cuts in total, for me suddenly seems to have been more realistic and fairer from what we have had.

It pains me to say that but I have seen,and am seeing, how the genuine disabled have had anxiety,confusion and even uncertainty and fear thrust on them from this heartless Coalition.
They ignore all the main charitable and other organisations who have, and who are, warning of the devastating likely effects of the welfare reforms on the most vulnerable and such lack of compassion as that gets no support from me.

The policies over the last 2 and a half years are failing and causing too much added hardship. everyone expected some hardship but it is in the main all directed at one section of society and unfairly in my view.
Nothing David Cameron said today, gave me any hope he was going to insist on far more compassionate policies,he is staying with the failing ones still running.
I am really sad he failed to do any of that. I hoped for much better from his Govt in Coalition with the the Lib Dems.

[Omah]

Originally Posted by kizzy

Agreed, a lot of ya-ya's as my dad called them, delegate the real work to some lacky, sack them if it goes tits up and take sole credit for any success.

That's the Tories for you .....

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

I hoped for good success for the Coalition kazanne,however,no matter what I do in my life, if I have a goal and plan a means to get to that goal but it is taking me too long to succeed,I look for a better way.
Labour who I felt were a total joke in 2010,I didn't blame them for the financial crisis, okay they could have done more to control things in the UK but they had no real control over the collapse in all other Countries which still would have massively affected the UK even if we'd ad the foresight to prepare for it.

Labour though,had a plan to cut the deficit in 4 years,making 20% less cuts and protecting the fragile recovery by not making severe cuts in the first year.

It was argued by the Conservatives and the Lib Dems, that was dangerous and unambitious and to still have a deficit barely halved by 2015 would be a disaster for the UK.
Rightly with a stronger plan, they formed a Coalition to all but clear the deficit by 2015, make more severe cuts from the first year,this they said would reduce the deficit quickest and protect the fragile recovery.
That simple has not happened, the cuts in the first year have had a devastaing effect and took us into a double dip recession,the heartless welfare reforms and ven more heartless ATOS testing has been in effect a hammer taken to the most vulnerable people in society with much more pain and more heartkess reforms still to be made all through next year.

The deficit was reduced by only 25% in the whole half of this Parliament,2 and a half years, it is now rising again due to the Coalitions new borrowing needs.
That is failure by any means the way I look at things and I think this Govt is too reforming, it should have waited to plan these reforms and look for other ways that wouldn't cause distress to the weakest in society.

I hoped the failure of the Conservatives to win an overall majority and therefore not get endorsements for the severity of their policies in the election and then having the Lib Dems in Coalition would have had a massively moderating effect on those extreme plans of reform,making sure too that compassion was a main order of the day as to any reforms.

That did not happen either, I find it sad that I heard from David Cameron today no understanding and compassion for the weakest and most vulnerable or indeed any let up in the hammer being used against them.
He said he is on the side of the risk takers, what risk takers, it was the risk taking Banks that helped bring about this Global financial mess,on the side of the likes of them.

We have a major question as to what to do in the future after the 2015 election as these are staying on this failed track, although they argue things are getting better becasue they are getting worse slower.
The answers for me are that moderates and consensus politicians from all parties should be planning the way forward.
That is never likely to happen but for me, one thing is sure,after this speech today by the Prime Minister, the answers are nowhere to be found now in this Coalition.
For me also.the NHS reforms will see that neither of the Coalition parties are trusted with that after the next election.

Whether Labour could have done it or not in reality, their modest reforms,the plan to only halve the deficit in 4 years and avoid really severe cuts to the most vulnerable in society,especially in the first year and also making 20% less of cuts in total, for me suddenly seems to have been more realistic and fairer from what we have had.

It pains me to say that but I have seen,and am seeing how the genuine disabled have had anxiety,confusion and even uncertainty and fear thrust on them from this heartless Coalition.
They ignore all the main charitable and other organisations who have, and who are, warning of the devasatating likely effects of the welfare reforms on the most vulnerable and such lack of compassion as that gets no support from me.

The polices over the last 2 and a half years are failing and causing too much added hardship. everyone expected some hardship but it is in the main all directed at one section of society and unfairly in my view.
Nothing David Cameron said today, gave me any hope he was going to insist on far more compassionate policies,he is staying with the failing ones still running.
I am really sad he failed to do any of that. I hoped for much better from his Govt in Coalition with the the Lib Dems.

Wowee joey, you have really studied this government comparing and contrasting them to what was happening globally in 2010. If more people have your clarity of vision to not look back, refusing to be led by the nose there may be a chance for this country! =)

[Livia]

Reading this thread - with one or two exceptions, joey - it's like listening to a fat bloke sitting in an armchair in his team shirt, shouting at a bunch of footballers as if he could really do better. If more people spent less time pontificating and toff-bashing (really... people would be outraged if people were being bashed simply because they were working class, seems it doesn't work the other way around though) and more time actually getting involved in politics, it would be a much better and fairer system. All the political parties are crying out for members, for campaigners, for councillors... but it's easier to sit in your armchair and moan.

[Ninastar]

x 10000

[thesheriff443]

Originally Posted by Livia

Reading this thread - with one or two exceptions, joey - it's like listening to a fat bloke sitting in an armchair in his team shirt, shouting at a bunch of footballers as if he could really do better. If more people spent less time pontificating and toff-bashing (really... people would be outraged if people were being bashed simply because they were working class, seems it doesn't work the other way around though) and more time actually getting involved in politics, it would be a much better and fairer system. All the political parties are crying out for members, for campaigners, for councillors... but it's easier to sit in your armchair and moan.

i dont see the posh getting poorer!,only the poor getting poorer,
you talk like people dont have the right to question the people that are running this country!

[Livia]

Originally Posted by thesheriff443

i dont see the posh getting poorer!,only the poor getting poorer,
you talk like people dont have the right to question the people that are running this country!

Of course people have a right to question the people who run the country. However, the coalition was voted in mainly because half the country couldn't be arsed to vote. If everyone who had a vote used it, it might be a very different picture.

But it's the same old stuff over and over again. There isn't really any debate, just rabid anti-Tory rants. And I'm not saying they don't deserve it but a bit of balance would be refreshing. However, it's like a Trade Union rally in here at times.

One of the reasons that there are a lot of rich people in politics (in all parties) is that the pay for MPs is crap considering the responsibility they have... not even middle-management level in civvy street. Well qualified people from working class or middle class backgrounds can have a far more lucrative career in business. Even the head of my local authority is paid more than five times what an MP is paid. And before you mention expenses, you would not believe the restraints now in place because some - not all - some MPs abused it, and those who did should be in jail.

[Kazanne]

Originally Posted by Livia

Reading this thread - with one or two exceptions, joey - it's like listening to a fat bloke sitting in an armchair in his team shirt, shouting at a bunch of footballers as if he could really do better. If more people spent less time pontificating and toff-bashing (really... people would be outraged if people were being bashed simply because they were working class, seems it doesn't work the other way around though) and more time actually getting involved in politics, it would be a much better and fairer system. All the political parties are crying out for members, for campaigners, for councillors... but it's easier to sit in your armchair and moan.

Bravo,Livia

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Livia

Reading this thread - with one or two exceptions, joey - it's like listening to a fat bloke sitting in an armchair in his team shirt, shouting at a bunch of footballers as if he could really do better. If more people spent less time pontificating and toff-bashing (really... people would be outraged if people were being bashed simply because they were working class, seems it doesn't work the other way around though) and more time actually getting involved in politics, it would be a much better and fairer system. All the political parties are crying out for members, for campaigners, for councillors... but it's easier to sit in your armchair and moan.

Of course,to me your opinion is always very valid and enlightening too.One I respect with the greatest of respect too

I have hoped for to see some compassion and I know I do go on about compassion a lot but I believe a society is only as good as in how its rulers treat the weakest and most vulnerable.
I have voted Conservative for the Council and Lib Dem in the election of 2010.

I already know that in every party there are many 'concensus' politicians who in the main have their best ideas ignored a lot of the time.
I watched avidly these Party Conferences, unbelievable to see no dissenting voices at the Lib Dems, yet not one single Lib Dem member or Councillor I have talked to agrees with how the Parliamentary Lib Dems have voted on so many issues.

The other side is also, I know Conservative councillors who I have even voted for, who also hated the NHS reform bill being even talked about let alone it going through Parliament, they too are concerned strongly as to things like the 'bedroom tax' still to come and the very further intrusive re-assessing of all disabled people,however yet again, no dissenting voices heard at the Conservative conference.
These Councillors aften state they have made their views known to the Party hierarchy, they either haven't or don't get listened to.

I personally come from a privileged background, I have no interest in whether people are snobs or not,in fact I find already in life the worst kind of snobs are working class snobs for looking down on others.

I live my life by a simple guideline, 'if I was walking down the street with just a couple of items in a bag and saw someone struggling with 5 or 6 bags having to keep changing hands, then I would help them with that load'.
I hope if the day comes that I go into Politics,I never lose that train of thought and that I may try to influence that the strong look out for the weak, the rich look out for the most vulnerable.

I haven't seen much of demonising the really strongest and richest of society or the 'taking from' same that I am very sadly seeing as to the disabled in particular, from this Coalition Govt.
I do agree with their aims on a great many issues, however on the NHS,which I was and remain solidly against their reforms there,in fact I don't see where they had any mandate to do them since they were not in any party's manifesto and then also the welfare and Benefit reforms too, while I support the reforms of the welfare and benefit structure,I do not support the means used in the reforms from this Coalition Govt.

Politics to me is a fascinating thing however perhaps,as you say, if people who did feel strongly about injustices that they see and got more involved then things may improve.
As yet,I am in no way a Party political person,I have no allegiance to any party however I do talk to people from all parties, members and Councillors too,(even Lib Dems),I am finding though it is beyond belief how far away local Politicians are from their Parliamentary colleagues as to certain policies.

For me, David Cameron said nothing I could latch onto to see that things will be any different or better as to these problems in the future.

[Livia]

Parliamentary politics and local politics are two very different animals, joey. An MP might latch on to an issue that's been brought to his attention by a Councillor, but MPs don't get usually involved in local issues that are in the domain of the council and Councillors don't generally get involved at Parliamentary level... as you know.

I would also like to see more party members (I'm referring to all the parties) given a voice at conference. Unfortunately it's all about press and soundbites. More party members from all parties need to speak out if they are against something, but they have to be careful. If they are not for the party, they are against it. I do know a few councillors who have become disillusioned (one Conservative and a couple of LibDems) who have resigned from their party and continued on the council as independents. I admire them to be honest, standing up to be counted over issues they feel strongly about.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Livia

Parliamentary politics and local politics are two very different animals, joey. An MP might latch on to an issue that's been brought to his attention by a Councillor, but MPs don't get usually involved in local issues that are in the domain of the council and Councillors don't generally get involved at Parliamentary level... as you know.

I would also like to see more party members (I'm referring to all the parties) given a voice at conference. Unfortunately it's all about press and soundbites. More party members from all parties need to speak out if they are against something, but they have to be careful. If they are not for the party, they are against it. I do know a few councillors who have become disillusioned (one Conservative and a couple of LibDems) who have resigned from their party and continued on the council as independents. I admire them to be honest, standing up to be counted over issues they feel strongly about.

I doubt I would make a good Party MP Livia, I would likely end up being a rebel.I may mellow as I get older

[Livia]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

I doubt I would make a good Party MP Livia, I would likely end up being a rebel.I may mellow as I get older

You would make a refreshingly wonderful MP, joey.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Livia

You would make a refreshingly wonderful MP, joey.

From you, that is a great confidence booster and praise indeed.Thank you.

[Kizzy]

I'm not surprised, if local councillors are running for the hills it naturally follows that people will vote with their feet.
Unfortunately despite everything most still have a social conscious.

[Omah]

Originally Posted by Livia

Reading this thread - with one or two exceptions, joey - it's like listening to a fat bloke sitting in an armchair in his team shirt, shouting at a bunch of footballers as if he could really do better. If more people spent less time pontificating and toff-bashing (really... people would be outraged if people were being bashed simply because they were working class, seems it doesn't work the other way around though) and more time actually getting involved in politics, it would be a much better and fairer system. All the political parties are crying out for members, for campaigners, for councillors... but it's easier to sit in your armchair and moan.

Some people talk the talk, some people walk the walk ..... I've walked the walk many times .....

[Niamh.]

Closed for cleaning, can I ask Kizzy and Livia to just not speak to eachother once I reopen? Thanks.

[Kizzy]

Thankyou for cleaning not closing niamh, =)
I am really interested in this topic, I'm no expert but i do have an opinion as a citizen of the UK, we are in a transition yet i feel that judging on the speech the PM was advocating the dissolution of communities. which would have a seriously detrimental effect on society as a whole.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Closed for cleaning, can I ask Kizzy and Livia to just not speak to eachother once I reopen? Thanks.

A request with which I am happy to comply.

[arista]

Kizzy
it's to Early to read so much in this years Politics.





2014
is the one to watch

The Labour Leader has no Policy until then.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by arista

Kizzy
it's to Early to read so much in this years Politics.





2014
is the one to watch

The Labour Leader has no Policy until then.

Don't worry what I think about arista... Just post about what you damn well think about the sodding speech!
Thats the point of the fecking thread.

[arista]

I say its far to Early

2014 is before the May 2015 Election

I think his speech was good
Mild no need to push.