[mizzy25]

havent read all of this as theres too much. my nephew and his girlfriend live in a 3 bedroomed house they have 2 boys one 8 one 6 both a year older this year so 9 and 7 but the council say they can share a bedroom therefore they have to pay the bedroom tax. on and they can only share a bedroom till the oldest one is 10 which is next year! totally ridiculous.

[joeysteele]

As this ridiculous, unjust and completely heartless tax draws nearer, people are now only understanding the full effects it will have.
Already this Govt is and has re-thought some elements to it and made concessions.

It is the most ridiculous idea from any Govt and I have nothing but contempt for the Lib Dems who helped support this policy through.
I also know of a couple who have 3 daughters, in a 4 bedroomed house, one of which is a very small box room,barely room for a single bed and another item of furniture.
They have been told, 2 of the daughters should share, another have a bedroom but that they will then be liable for the under occupancy charge for the small bedroom.
It will leave them £55 worse off every month.

I have said for over a year now,this policy will lead to heavy rent arrears next year as people think they can save on gas and electric this year to pay it,only to find themselves in problems when winter bites again and higher energy bills.

There will likely be court cases for rent arrears and then eviction orders coming next year.
There are not the one bedroomed or smaller properties available to house everyone affected by this obscene measure and it should be scrapped.

It is a policy that should never have even been thought of never mind implemented and I really hope it becomes this heartless Govts poll tax.

[arista]

"I have nothing but contempt for the Lib Dems who helped support this policy through."


"But there is Money problems ,
after New Labour burnt the money,
and they can also see the books that
tell you round the corner is far worse."

[Vanessa]

I'm lucky i have a one bedroom flat. I'd be furious if i had to pay this as well.

[Vicky.]

Brighton and Hove council arent going to evict anyone who gets into debt over this ridiculous idea

http://keepourcouncilhomes.wordpress...r-bedroom-tax/

I hope other councils follow suit.




Arista, you say this is about saving money on the benefit bill as labour left debt. Now, I agree with you that its about saving money, but the government keep saying that its to 'free up larger housing for families'

It wont do either and heres why

- Pensioners are most likely to be 'underoccupying' than anyone else and they are exempt from this.
-Many people hit will be couples with no kids who have a 2 bed property. One bedroomed places are very rare, I'm sure most people know this. So these families that the houses need freed up for are going to be most likely in 2 bed places anyway. Why penalise the couple in a 2 bed property, despite there being nowhere for them to move to...and them moving wouldnt help anyone anyway? In short, there arent enough places for people to downsize to.
-People cannot afford the massive costs involved with moving..so wont move.

Now onto why it wont save money.

-Those that do move, will most likely move into private housing(as it has been confirmed by many many councils that enough smaller council properties dont exist), which costs a lot more on the housing benefit bill than social housing does.
-Among people who have to move are the disabled who have their properties adapted for their needs. Move these people, and its more cost to the government, having to adapt their new properties too.

There are many more arguments for both of those, but that was the first ones that came into my head when writing this

In short, a good idea in theory, very unfairly implemented, and not thought through well at all.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by arista

"I have nothing but contempt for the Lib Dems who helped support this policy through."


"But there is Money problems ,
after New Labour burnt the money,
and they can also see the books that
tell you round the corner is far worse."

Then they should be going for greater savings than this from those that can best afford to lose out a bit more and not keep banging the sledgehammer against the most vulnerable.
They should also have made sure there were adequate and enough properties available to properly house the people they are trying to force out of their homes, homes people were even likely born in decades ago and who are sitting with secured tenancies.
Who now because they are on very low incomes and status are near being politically blackmailed out of those homes.

It is the shocking failure of all Govts to deal with the housing problems not just Labour's,yes they had 13 years of power from 1997 to 2010 but the Conservatives had 18 years of unbroken power before that and did nothing to address this problem or plan ahead either, even after selling off council housing stock.

While I agree, Labour helped run up a debt and deficit problem.They could likely only have avoided that by going down the route of the Govt of the 1980s and allowed Jobs to be lost and unemployment to rise to ridiculous levels.
Thereby creating massive human cost as to livelihoods and jobs
Many of the unemployment problems now still stem from the 80s and early 90s Govt belief that unemployment was a price worth paying to get out of their recessions.

They are not going to solve the debt crisis by hammering the most vulnerable, sick and disabled and even people working on very low incomes too.
They are failing on every front of their economic policies almost, Osborne will be coming out again next week likely revising down his forecasts as he has had to do every year since coming to power.

No decent Govt would make the poorest and most vulnerable pay for the mistakes of Bankers and Govts of all parties like this Govt is, it is obscene and it is why I have certainly parted company with this rotten shambles of a Govt and hope they get well and truly thrown out at the next election.

The bedroom tax is a rotten,heartlesss and unfair policy, that like so many other policies that are failing and have already failed is as badly thought out as it is going to be in practice too.

Another heartless policy from a Govt that has no heart, however it is gutless too, because it can only prey on the weakest and most vulnerable in society and that really stinks to me.

[arista]

"The bedroom tax is a rotten,heartlesss and unfair policy, "


Sure but it will get far worse
for 10 years or so.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by arista

"The bedroom tax is a rotten,heartlesss and unfair policy, "


Sure but it will get far worse
for 10 years or so.

All the more reason then not to batter the weakest and poorest and I include the sick and disabled in that too.
To make sure in fact they are protected not exposed to insecurities further

All the more reason to be looking at really sorting the problems out by ensuring it is done in fair and just policies.

If it is going to get worse over the next 10 years now as you indicate, then that is a massive further condemnation towards the policies of this present Govt who insisted the cuts they would be making and the policies they would be undertaking would all but clear the deficit by 2015 and restore secure growth for the future too.

To now be admitting for the next 10 years that things are likely to get far worse, that has to be laid only at the door of this Govt and its policies which have by far failed to achieve anything really it was insisted they would do.

[Vicky.]

And while people are already going to struggle paying this...it comes out that the jobcentres have TARGETS of how many people to sanction each week

http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/20...efit-sanctions

Absolutely ****ing disgraceful. Actually looking for reasons to leave someone destitute.

Her advice includes: "Do not accept the same job search every week, do not accept 'I dropped off CV to shops like Asda or Sainsbury's', listen for telltale phrases 'I pick up the kids', 'I look after my neighbours children/my grandchildren' or just 'I am busy' – all of which suggest that the customer may not be fully available for work, even cases where a parent shares custody can be considered."

I'm not particularly a fan of labour, but people need to drop the myth that Labour are in any way to blame for the financial meltdown.

It was a worldwide crisis brought about by the bankers. This isn't even open to dispute, so why Arista keeps peddling some nonsense about labour is baffling.

The reforms being pushed by the right have nothing to do with deficits and debt, but are ideological aims by the far right.

The gap between rich and poor continues to get wider everyday, yet the people at the top want to keep taking away from the poor. How much is enough for these people? When will they finally allow people to live?

[arista]

Originally Posted by Jesus.H.Christ

I'm not particularly a fan of labour, but people need to drop the myth that Labour are in any way to blame for the financial meltdown.

It was a worldwide crisis brought about by the bankers. This isn't even open to dispute, so why Arista keeps peddling some nonsense about labour is baffling.

The reforms being pushed by the right have nothing to do with deficits and debt, but are ideological aims by the far right.

The gap between rich and poor continues to get wider everyday, yet the people at the top want to keep taking away from the poor. How much is enough for these people? When will they finally allow people to live?

No but because of that Brown Sold off all our Gold Vaults dirt cheap.

The Fact that America was in a mess
does not mean I let New Labour off.
Its the way they Let Our Banks get away with it.

So New Labour burnt all our money
because they were stupid.

Originally Posted by arista

No but because of that Brown Sold off all our Gold Vaults dirt cheap.

The Fact that America was in a mess
does not mean I let New Labour off.
Its the way they Let Our Banks get away with it.

So New Labour burnt all our money
because they were stupid.

It wasn't just America that was in a mess, it was the financial world. No political party would have tackled the banks, just like they haven't anywhere else.

[arista]

Originally Posted by Jesus.H.Christ

It wasn't just America that was in a mess, it was the financial world. No political party would have tackled the banks, just like they haven't anywhere else.

Yes
But New Labour made it worse.
Thats why I will not let go of my bone

Originally Posted by arista

Yes
But New Labour made it worse.
Thats why I will not let go of my bone

Keep your bone, Arista. It's genuinely insane though as the problem is politicians unwilling to fight for the people they represent in exchange for corporate donors. It's nothing to do with political parties. They're all ****houses.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Jesus.H.Christ

I'm not particularly a fan of labour, but people need to drop the myth that Labour are in any way to blame for the financial meltdown.

It was a worldwide crisis brought about by the bankers. This isn't even open to dispute, so why Arista keeps peddling some nonsense about labour is baffling.

The reforms being pushed by the right have nothing to do with deficits and debt, but are ideological aims by the far right.

The gap between rich and poor continues to get wider everyday, yet the people at the top want to keep taking away from the poor. How much is enough for these people? When will they finally allow people to live?

I have to say I am more in agreement with this.

I also believe no matter what Govt had been in at this time the same crisis would have occurred although likely the Conservative party would have allowed unemployment to rocket rather than take a financial route to try to deal with the situation,thereby causing massive loss of livelihoods to peoples lives anyway.
Also while I would agree Labour had 13 years in power,I also am mystified why as to banking particularly, nothing was done in a whole 18 years of unbroken rule by the Conservatives as to them in that time either.

This bedroom tax,(although the Govt hates it being called a tax,however how odd many Conservative councillors I have talked to and near all Lib Dem councillors call it the bedroom tax), is in my view 100% wrong for the many reasons I have already said previously in posts on this thread.

They have already looked at and changed slightly this bit of it and that bit of it and are even looking at more of it again now.
It is a totally badly planned idea that any Govt with even a tiny shred of decency left in it at all would scrap completely.
What it is likely to save is not worth the hassle and bother it will bring really.

I'd really recommend a book by Naomi Klein called shock doctrine, Joey. Think you'd find it an interesting read.

http://www.naomiklein.org/shock-doctrine

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Jesus.H.Christ

I'm not particularly a fan of labour, but people need to drop the myth that Labour are in any way to blame for the financial meltdown.

It was a worldwide crisis brought about by the bankers. This isn't even open to dispute, so why Arista keeps peddling some nonsense about labour is baffling.

The reforms being pushed by the right have nothing to do with deficits and debt, but are ideological aims by the far right.

The gap between rich and poor continues to get wider everyday, yet the people at the top want to keep taking away from the poor. How much is enough for these people? When will they finally allow people to live?

Yeah, I find it quite amusing that some seem to think labour were capable of causing a worldwide recession. But I just let them get on with it tbh..once something is so set in someones mind, theres no changing it.

[michael21]

it does not effect me but what date dose it come in

[arista]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Yeah, I find it quite amusing that some seem to think labour were capable of causing a worldwide recession. But I just let them get on with it tbh..once something is so set in someones mind, theres no changing it.

I have never said that Vicky.



But if Labour get power they want to go like Greece
and borrow until Bankrupt.

Labour are Worse.

Originally Posted by arista

I have never said that Vicky.



But if Labour get power they want to go like Greece
and borrow until Bankrupt.

Labour are Worse.

Firstly we don't have a debt/deficit problem, we have a jobs problem. If you get people back to work, the pay taxes, and buy from businesses, those businesses are then able to hire more workers, buy more expensive personal goods etc.

In order to kick off a jobs program in the first place, you need to borrow the money to pay for infrastructure repairs. There is good and bad debt, borrowing to increase tax base and get the economy moving from the bottom up is good debt. Borrowing money to pay for tax reductions on the top earners is bad debt.

It really is basic economics. You can ignore it if you wish, but when you throw out stuff like "we'll be Greece" then they are right wing talking points, not facts.

[joeysteele]

I honestly now do not believe that Labour could be any worse than this Coalition, I have in the last 5 years crossed completely the political divide.
I supported this Coalition when it came to power,I even hoped for good things from it but I really draw the line at any party in power battering the weakest and most vulnerable in its society.
I also have no faith in either of the Coalition party's as to the NHS and will not trust my vote to either for them to damage the NHS further.

This Chancellor is a total failure,he comes out year after with forecasts,all that have to be downgraded the next year due to this Govts failure, not just downgraded either but as to this years budget,heavily downgraded too.

Labours plan to make less cuts and none in the first year at all, also to only set out to halve the deficit in 4 years actually now seems to have been the fairer way and easier way to handle things.
What this lot are doing is failing on a grand scale and they still set out to hammer the weakest and poorest more and more as if it is the poors fault for the mess.

This bedroom tax they claim is for under occupying, however it is only the people who are in the unfortunate position to have to claim housing benefit that would seem to be under occupying council housing according to this Govt.
It claims really that this under occupancy reform is to open up houses for families where houses are being under occupied.
However someone working with a good income, in council housing,living alone, is not according to this Govt under occupying,it is only the people who have to claim housing benefit that are under occupying and who are going to be penalised

Both sets of tenants were given secured tenancies but it is only the weakest and poorest on the lowest income that are to punished for under occupying.
This Govt is a total disgrace on this policy.
I have come across people who are going to be affected by this, who have worked most of their lives but now due to illness they cannot work ,some are in the house they were born in but this Govt is near politically blackmailing them out of the house simply because they are on housing benefit.

It is a gutless and cowardly policy from a gutless Govt that can only attack the weakest in the UK while strengthening the position of the richest and strongest and I want no part of any Party that advocates that line and this bedroom tax is not only wrong,in my view it is a totally unjust discrimination too.

[arista]

Originally Posted by Jesus.H.Christ

Firstly we don't have a debt/deficit problem, we have a jobs problem. If you get people back to work, the pay taxes, and buy from businesses, those businesses are then able to hire more workers, buy more expensive personal goods etc.

In order to kick off a jobs program in the first place, you need to borrow the money to pay for infrastructure repairs. There us good and bad debt. Borrowing to increase tax base and get the economy moving from the bottom up is good debt. Borrowing money to pay for tax reductions on the top earners is bad debt.

It really is basic economics. You can ignore it if you wish, but when you throw out stuff like "we'll be Greece" then they are right wing talking points, not facts.

Yes Jobs are on the way but there is not enough of them.
and at this time we are sadly borrowing due to the flat line status.


And Right Wing
is a easy label.


Sign Of The Times

[Vicky.]

Protests all over the country today

http://www.ustream.tv/channel/occupy..._medium=social

Stream of trafalger square ^

[Kizzy]

Well waddya know? the uk can be stirred by something ....

Youtube video

[joeysteele]

Well done to the people who have demonstrated against this obscene tax today.

As more is learned as to it, people are realising how heartless and unjust it is.
There will be much more of these demonstrations to come next year likely when the true problems of rent arrears and people being evicted start.
There will also be a great many people who will know of someone who has been badly affected and unfairly so by this tax.

Just nicely in time for the General election to follow the year after,I still say it, this bedroom tax will likely become this Coalitions poll tax.
They haven't listened, they won't listen so out they will go.