[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by the truth

he had plenty of time for affairs, booze, fags, humiliating tv appearances, yet never worked. he should have at the very least worked part time around his wifes part time job. but thats hard when youre so busy having affairs, threatening people, drinking , smoking and embarassing your family on tv

Oh I definitely agree that his lifestyle left something to be desired

Just that people go on about how much of a disgrace it was that he stayed home...when if it was the wife that stayed home with the kids noone would say that.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by the truth

he had plenty of time for affairs, booze, fags, humiliating tv appearances, yet never worked. he should have at the very least worked part time around his wifes part time job. but thats hard when youre so busy having affairs, threatening people, drinking , smoking and embarassing your family on tv

Sounds like someone we know...
Tousle the hair a little, some self-deprecation and a bit of a plug for the BBC TV documentary on Monday to remind the Tory backbenchers that if the ball ever popped out of the scrum, he would be on hand to take it, almost accidentally, over the line. A spot of liberal differentiation from his school chum David Cameron on the benefits of migrants might provide with him an entry to the likely story of the day, the prime minister's imminent speech on migrants and access to social housing. But after the 15 minutes of chilling inquisition by the softly spoken Eddie Mair, Johnson's reputation had taken a severe pounding. Indeed, it was probably the worst interview the mayor has ever conducted

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2...iew-eddie-mair

[GiRTh]

Mick Phillpott was a abusive controlling psychopath. No one thing drove him to do what he did. Not the welfare state or any other single factor. The man was a psycho. How any one can come to the conclusion that the welfare state had anything to do with this crime is simply trying to push their own agenda. Raoul Moat wasn't a benefits scrounger yet he still went crazy so how do people come to the conclusion that Mick Philpotts lifestyle had anything to do with his psychotic tendencies.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by GiRTh

Mick Phillpott was a abusive controlling psychopath. No one thing drove him to do what he did. Not the welfare state or any other single factor. The man was a psycho. How any one can come to the conclusion that the welfare state had anything to do with this crime is simply trying to push their own agenda. Raoul Moat wasn't a benefits scrounger yet he still went crazy so how do people come to the conclusion that Mick Philpotts lifestyle had anything to do with his psychotic tendencies.

100% agreed.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by GiRTh

Mick Phillpott was a abusive controlling psychopath. No one thing drove him to do what he did. Not the welfare state or any other single factor. The man was a psycho. How any one can come to the conclusion that the welfare state had anything to do with this crime is simply trying to push their own agenda. Raoul Moat wasn't a benefits scrounger yet he still went crazy so how do people come to the conclusion that Mick Philpotts lifestyle had anything to do with his psychotic tendencies.

Another excellent post and strong points.

I now really don't take much notice myself of the dragging benefits issue into this tragedy anymore,for me anyway, that argument is well lost.
I am just personally sad anyone would do so especially people trusted to run the Country too.

For me it is the loss of 6 children's lives that is the only matter here and the Mail's front page is an insult to any decency too as to that fact.

[the truth]

Originally Posted by GiRTh

Mick Phillpott was a abusive controlling psychopath. No one thing drove him to do what he did. Not the welfare state or any other single factor. The man was a psycho. How any one can come to the conclusion that the welfare state had anything to do with this crime is simply trying to push their own agenda. Raoul Moat wasn't a benefits scrounger yet he still went crazy so how do people come to the conclusion that Mick Philpotts lifestyle had anything to do with his psychotic tendencies.

all paid for by th ebenefits system. if the benefits system had some kind of limit he wouldnt have been able to afford to have had endless kids and his benefits would have been cut off if he had kept turning down jobs. the benefits sytem and the lazy culture made him a worse , lazier greedier nastier person. a man with no work ethic at all, in the end all he did was waste tax payers money on booze fags and chasing women. the dependancy culture is bad for peoples mental health. people need work, they need ambition, they need self worth. any man who is fit enough and goes his life without working is not a man. in the end part of the reason he did what he did was to keep his benefits and to keep his kids. Id also say the social services should have looked far closer at this man and hiw wife.

[joeysteele]

He was a controlling man, he had worked in the past and had even been in the army. Makes you wonder what he must have been like in the army.

The Judge who had heard all the evidence oddly enough didn't have some obsession as to the benefits he was getting.
He was seen as someone who saw the people in his life and his children too as posessions, to be controlled and for him never to be crossed.
That was his Mental/psychological issues clearly,being very generous to him as to that though.

What had triggered him to this, was the fact the other woman had left and taken her 5 children with her, he hated losing what he saw as those posessions, working or on benefits he would have likely done the same thing in order to get back at her.

Yes there is the income issue, as she would have likely been taking away the paying in of her benefits and wages too into his account.
Money and people as posessions were the main issues here but even had he been working full time, if the women had been working full time and one had dared to leave him in all likelihood he would have reacted the same.

He wanted 'his' posessions around him, to control them and make sure he had control of them too.
That is the rottenness of his thinking and personality,it is also why this likely happened not because of being on benefits.

It is also not really appropriate in my view anyway, to state this is because of the benefits culture anyway, others with large families, as has been said on here, don't act this way and certainly I would guess way into the top half of the 90+% of people on benefits wouldn't act this way either.

The man's mind was corrupt with really closed thinking,benefits didn't do that, it was how he was.

[the truth]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

He was a controlling man, he had worked in the past and had even been in the army. Makes you wonder what he must have been like in the army.

The Judge who had heard all the evidence oddly enough didn't have some obsession as to the benefeits he as getting.
He was seen as someone who saw the people in his life and his children too as possessions, to be controlled and for him never to be crossed.
That was his Mental/psychological issues clearly,being very generous to him as to that though.

What had triggered him to this, was the fact the other woman had left and taken her 5 children with her, he hated losing what he saw as those possessions, working or on benefits he would have likely done the same thing in order to get back at her.

Yes there is the income issue, as she would have likely been taking away the paying in of her benefits and wages too into his account.
Money and people as possessions were the main issues here but even had he been working full time, if the women had been working full time and one had dared to leave him in all likelihood he would have reacted the same.

He wanted 'his' posessions around him, to control them and make sure he had control of them too.
That is the rottenness of his thinking and personality,it is also why this likely happened not because of being on benefits.

It is also not really appropriate in my view anyway, to state this is becasue of the benefits culture anyway, others with large families, as has been said on here, don't act this way and certainly I would guess way into the top half of the 90+% of people on benefits would act this way either.

The man's mind was corrupt with really closed thinking,benefits didn't do that, it was how he was.

absolute rubbish

the fact is the benefits system and the lazy benefits culture encouraged such a man to be a lazy scumbag, to waste his life boozing , impregnating women endlessly and chasing other women. all paid for by the taxes of the hard working men. it gave him everything for free, it made him a minor celebrity too. his ego was out of control and he even used his disgusting past as an excuse to avoid work and society rewarded him? our system is corrupt. all his benefits should have been taken. there are always jobs out there. the man had no disabilities so he should have had no benefits , go to work or starve. the social services failed totally. he was clearly a disaster waiting to happen. the benefits system and the benefits culture has institutionalised this mans disgusting lifestyle and Im glad osborne questioned it.

[Ammi]

..so, you think if someone is on benefits and they have children, those benefits should be taken away..and they 'starve'...so the children would starve as well..the whole family...?...that would be an acceptable solution..solve anything..?...

[AnnieK]

There are extremes in every situation though...as Ammi said removing benefits would directly affect the children also. Everyone on benefits cannot be tarred with the same brush as this man as relatively very few abuse the system..

[Ammi]

..truth..I think it needs to be got into perspective..there are many people on benefits who would rather not be, but they have no choice..sometimes there is no work or maybe they have struggled for so long to find work that they have lost all confidence in themselves and now are unable to work because of that..that is a very real and serious thing..it's not imagined or contrived or anything..the solution is to help them with that, not punish them..do you punish people because they are the 'victims' of circumstance and mostly through no fault of their own..?....

..it's a very small percentage of people on benefits who could be termed as 'scroungers'...unfortunately because of the media and how they like to portray and sensationalise things..they lead people to believe it's the 'norm' for people who are forced to be on benefits...this guy didn't do this because he was on benefits..he did it because he had no concern or regard for his children...a very, very selfish man by character and that had an extremely tragic ending for those poor children....

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by the truth

absolute rubbish

the fact is the benefits system and the lazy benefits culture encouraged such a man to be a lazy scumbag, to waste his life boozing , impregnating women endlessly and chasing other women. all paid for by the taxes of the hard working men. it gave him everything for free, it made him a minor celebrity too. his ego was out of control and he even used his disgusting past as an excuse to avoid work and society rewarded him? our system is corrupt. all his benefits should have been taken. there are always jobs out there. the man had no disabilities so he should have had no benefits , go to work or starve. the social services failed totally. he was clearly a disaster waiting to happen. the benefits system and the benefits culture has institutionalised this mans disgusting lifestyle and Im glad osborne questioned it.

Your view just as my viewpoint is mine too, and there is absolutely no need to call anyone else views rubbish who disagrees with your,at least rather it seems to me, biased view as to people on benefits.
Near every post you make as to this tragedy involves some attack on the benefit situation.

I prefer as the Judge did too, to not use this as an excuse to demonise people far less fortunate than I am who have to claim benefits and to actually look at it from the rotten thinking as to this man and the extremely sad loss of 6 young lives.

If what I am saying is rubbish, then I am very happy to talk rubbish and not seize on tragedies to demonise others or their lifestyles.

[arista]

"Near every post you make as to this tragedy involves some attack on the benefit situation."

Yes Joey it upsets some who are working hard.
this nation will be Split at the election
and David can win on this.
2 years of Working Hard Voters
suffering Bollocks from Ed Balls and Ed M.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by arista

"Near every post you make as to this tragedy involves some attack on the benefit situation."

Yes Joey it upsets some who are working hard.
this nation will be Split at the election
and David can win on this.
2 years of Working Hard Voters
suffering Bollocks from Ed Balls and Ed M.

There's a vast number of people on benefits who are also working hard arista, helping those keep their wealth and businessess too.

It all works both ways, this I feel especially the content and tone of Osborne and now Cameron is turning people off.
Like me, most people support welfare reform, however the more that is learned about this particular Govts method of reforms is made clear, people are turned off.

I have yet to find someone around me who agrees with Ministers of the crown setting out to demonise the poorer sector of society especially involving this tragedy in it too.

When the dust settles, I can only see Cameron being seen as more uncaring and weak from these episodes this week.

[arista]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

There's a vast number of people on benefits who are also working hard arista, helping those keep their wealth and businessess too.

It all works both ways, this I feel especially the content and tone of Osborne and now Cameron is turning people off.
Like me, most people support welfare reform, however the more that is learned about this particular Govts method of reforms is made clear, people are turned off.

I have yet to find someone around me who agrees with Ministers of the crown setting out to demonise the poorer sector of society especially involving this tragedy in it too.

When the dust settles, I can only see Cameron being seen as more uncaring and weak from these episodes this week.

No just the people you meet.

But I know so many backing the PM on this
(Today on BBC Dateline proving its not a Bedroom Tax[Labours Lie]
but a Benefit Cut)

Workers on benefits are not the problem
and they are not angry , some are
but not all.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by the truth

absolute rubbish

the fact is the benefits system and the lazy benefits culture encouraged such a man to be a lazy scumbag, to waste his life boozing , impregnating women endlessly and chasing other women. all paid for by the taxes of the hard working men. it gave him everything for free, it made him a minor celebrity too. his ego was out of control and he even used his disgusting past as an excuse to avoid work and society rewarded him? our system is corrupt. all his benefits should have been taken. there are always jobs out there. the man had no disabilities so he should have had no benefits , go to work or starve. the social services failed totally. he was clearly a disaster waiting to happen. the benefits system and the benefits culture has institutionalised this mans disgusting lifestyle and Im glad osborne questioned it.

people... you mean people.

[Jack_]

Originally Posted by the truth

absolute rubbish

the fact is the benefits system and the lazy benefits culture encouraged such a man to be a lazy scumbag, to waste his life boozing , impregnating women endlessly and chasing other women. all paid for by the taxes of the hard working men. it gave him everything for free, it made him a minor celebrity too. his ego was out of control and he even used his disgusting past as an excuse to avoid work and society rewarded him? our system is corrupt. all his benefits should have been taken. there are always jobs out there. the man had no disabilities so he should have had no benefits , go to work or starve. the social services failed totally. he was clearly a disaster waiting to happen. the benefits system and the benefits culture has institutionalised this mans disgusting lifestyle and Im glad osborne questioned it.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by arista

No just the people you meet.

But I know so many backing the PM on this
(Today on BBC Dateline proving its not a Bedroom Tax[Labours Lie]
but a Benefit Cut)

Workers on benefits are not the problem
and they are not angry , some are
but not all.

We shall see arista,however I feel near as sure as I can be that Cameron and co will not be trusted at all at the next election by more than 35% of the voters max.
The bedroom tax/charge, (I personally don't care what people call it but near all in the media address it as the bedroom tax and it is certainly what the people affected by it call it), that will see this Govt out and I am beginning to now think well and truly out in 2015 too.

Incidentally, I backed the PM and the Govt on welfare reform too but not the way they have done it, I believe there is a better, more compassionate way and so while I support the idea, I do not support this Govts polices in action as to it.

Using this tragedy to further attempt to demonise benefit claimants will as it goes on, make most people feel sick.
That is what I am finding.

I was talking to a close friend of mine this morning, who is a firm Conservative supporter,(in fact most of my really good friends were Conservative voters in 2010), he said he wishes Osborne and Cameron would keep their mouths shut since near everytime they say something, it is either proven wrong or causes controversy in a negative way.

We shall see though arista.however I am near as sure as I can be that no way will the Conservatives win the next election or even come as close as they did in 2010 either.
For once,(and I hate admitting this), I agree with Kelvin Mackenzie, who said on sky the other night, there is likely to be a 1997 proportions election against the Conservatives, he added that Cameron had been a disaster as a leader and Prime Minister.

[arista]

"Incidentally, I backed the PM and the Govt on welfare reform too but not the way they have done it"


Its only just starting - give it a chance
do not get caught in this Labour Frenzy.


2 Years
Millions will hate Labour

Ed and Ed both under Failed Brown
Stinking

Originally Posted by arista

"Near every post you make as to this tragedy involves some attack on the benefit situation."

Yes Joey it upsets some who are working hard.
this nation will be Split at the election
and David can win on this.
2 years of Working Hard Voters
suffering Bollocks from Ed Balls and Ed M.

A lot of the people on benefits at the moment, have also been hard workers. They may have retired, or they may have lost their jobs due to the recession, but only someone with zero intelligence would try to make this a battle of makers versus takers.

[arista]

Originally Posted by Jesus.H.Christ

A lot of the people on benefits at the moment, have also been hard workers. They may have retired, or they may have lost their jobs due to the recession, but only someone with zero intelligence would try to make this a battle of makers versus takers.

Its Labour moaning.


LibDem and Conservastive
show positive side.

Hard Workers are not the problem
its the ones who refuse to work and want 26K a year
for doing nothing,
Its got to change

Originally Posted by arista

Its Labour moaning.


LibDem and Conservastive
show postivie side.

Hard Workers are not the problem
its the ones who refuse to work and want 26K a year
for doing nothing,
Its got to change

Show what positive side? How willing they all are to strip money away from those that need it the most?

How many benefit claimants are getting Ł26k per annum?

I like the new approach that has suddenly started to happen, whereby housing benefit, tax credits, and everything else is all bundled into one figure, to inspire more outrage.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by arista

"Incidentally, I backed the PM and the Govt on welfare reform too but not the way they have done it"


Its only just starting - give it a chance
do not get caught in this Labour Frenzy.


2 Years
Millions will hate Labour

Ed and Ed both under Failed Brown
Stinking

I am not caught in any Labour frenzy arista,I was in fact a likely natural Conservative voter now lost for a good while,if I was ever to think of returning.

I simply don't believe in hammering the weakest and most vulnerable for any reason when they have done nothing wrong, that has nothing to do with the Labour party but everything to do with decency and right.

Failed Brown is starting to look a picnic compared to the heartlessness of this Govt and as for the Lib Dems, they have just shown themselves to be total hypocrites, they will support anything to have a period in power.
I haven't an ounce of respect for them whatsoever.

As you say, these reforms are just starting and the more people learn about them the more they see how heartless and unjust they really are.
Cameron would have more chance if he were to do yet another u turn and scrap this bedrrom tax,(I am happy to term it as that), and also to look again at the reforms.
Too many reforms,too soon and they are causing chaos to claimants, their families and carers alike.

For me however, a Chancellor actually setting out to use a tragedy of the loss of life of so many Children to jump on the agenda of benefit claimants, is despicable to say the least.
Even worse that the PM of the Country supports him in it too.

Thankfully,and I am grateful for it, people around me think the same as me as to that and many of those were Conservative voters too who are completely disillussioned at the demonising path this Govt has taken as to benefit claimants particularly on the back of this tragedy.

I am looking forward to it all coming back to haunt them in the 2015 election campaign.

[arista]

Yes lets see how the next 2 years go.

[the truth]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

I am not caught in any Labour frenzy arista,I was in fact a likely natural Conservative voter now lost for a good while,if I was ever to think of returning.

I simply don't believe in hammering the weakest and most vulnerable for any reason when they have done nothing wrong, that has nothing to do with the Labour party but everything to do with decency and right.

Failed Brown is starting to look a picnic compared to the heartlessness of this Govt and as for the Lib Dems, they have just shown themselves to be total hypocrites, they will support anything to have a period in power.
I haven't an ounce of respect for them whatsoever.

As you say, these reforms are just starting and the more people learn about them the more they see how heartless and unjust they really are.
Cameron would have more chance if he were to do yet another u turn and scrap this bedrrom tax,(I am happy to term it as that), and also to look again at the reforms.
Too many reforms,too soon and they are causing chaos to claimants, their families and carers alike.

For me however, a Chancellor actually setting out to use a tragedy of the loss of life of so many Children to jump on the agenda of benefit claimants, is despicable to say the least.
Even worse that the PM of the Country supports him in it too.

Thankfully,and I am grateful for it, people around me think the same as me as to that and many of those were Conservative voters too who are completely disillussioned at the demonising path this Govt has taken as to benefit claimants particularly on the back of this tragedy.

I am looking forward to it all coming back to haunt them in the 2015 election campaign.

the most vulnerable are the disabled and the sick and elderly all of whom have been ignored for decades