[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Nedusa

Good points raised there Joey, I tend to agree with your closing comment that No Govt will actually give the GBP an In/out Referendum to decide our future in the EU.

It is such a complicated subject in fact I doubt even the experts could agree on whether the UK is better or worse off in the long run by staying in the EU.

I think the prevailing political view is that the UK is currently stronger being part of it, a view Ed Miliband seems to share.

So until it becomes patently obvious to all interested parties ie Govt, Corporate Business etc.. that staying in the EU is damaging Britain I think in the EU we will stay and all talk of referendums will remain just that..ie all talk

Absolutely, I agree with all you say above Nedusa.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

But that's all they have is rhetoric, the conservatives have been rolling out the same stock phrases for 40-50 years!
They latch onto the island mentality and give a nice pink tinge to the idea of being out of the EU, the reality will be less rights for everyone.

'A principal target for the prime minister in his speech on Europe will be to wrench the UK away from the social and employment policies of the EU. Millions of people in Britain will suffer if he is successful. He must not be.'

'Cameron's manoeuvre is unworthy and mean-spirited. EU employment rights, like the EU itself – even with all its flaws – deserve the determined support of British working people. They're a cause worth fighting for. His vision of a UK without significant protections for employees, and competing not on quality but on cheapness and vulnerability, would be a disaster.'

http://www.theguardian.com/commentis...workers-rights

Originally Posted by Kizzy

So what it comes down to is the barnum effect, creating a saachi 3 ring circus to parade these grey clad clowns?
It's nothing to do with policies, just who can keep their manic grin painted on for the longest time whilst controlling what spin the plebs get fed with their morning bowl of chemicals?

When I referred to rhetoric, I meant yours, not the Tories'.

A link to the Guardian which is critical of the Tories and which cements your own opinion is about as unbiased as me giving you a link to the Daily Mail.

You'd think that it was only the Tories who use large advertising and PR agencies to get their message across to the "plebs". It isn't. I'm not sure what point you're trying to make in your second post there. Is it that people - except you of course - are too stupid to interpret information? Do you think everyone - except you of course - swallows everything the parties feed them? I'm not even sure where you were going with the "morning bowl of chemicals" thing.

Anyway, I've given my opinion. You don't have to like it, I'm not sue that I like it... but it's how I see it.

[joeysteele]

Sorry for this one, however it made me smile.

A lady I was chatting to today who is 75 years old, asked me if I could tell her if Milibands speech the other day meant that if he won he would not hold a vote as to Europe,had she got that right.

I said yes she had heard it right and did that bother her.

Her reply was ''Oh thank god for that, he gets my vote because I am sick of hearing about it and haven't a clue as to how I would vote in one anyway''.

[Jack_]

Great news, I certainly don't want an EU referendum that will be dictated by an overwhelmingly right-wing and anti-Europe press

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Jack_

Great news, I certainly don't want an EU referendum that will be dictated by an overwhelmingly right-wing and anti-Europe press

Totally agree Jack, that is the problem,the media would not in any way present a balanced and fair assessment of the argument as to the EU.

It is also one of the strong reasons why I certainly don't want one.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Jack_

Great news, I certainly don't want an EU referendum that will be dictated by an overwhelmingly right-wing and anti-Europe press

Not giving people a chance to choose for themselves is hardly democratic though, is it. Politicians are supposed to represent their constituents' interests, and most people, whatever their political persuasion can differentiate spin from facts. Everyone should be given the opportunity to choose and let's see what the population thinks is best for the country as a whole.

Hope you had a nice Birthday, Jack.

[Vicky.]

The problem I see with a referendum (besides not knowing how I would even vote ) is that I think people who think 'grrr immigrants taking our jobs' and such would be much more likely to go and vote than people who don't really care much either way, or even those who would rather stay. The rags have done a fantastic job of whipping people into a frenzy about immigration...

Immigration and how much it costs us to stay in the EU seem to be all anyone talks about. They don't talk about the perks, such as loads more rights for workers and stuff.

[Jack_]

Originally Posted by Livia

Not giving people a chance to choose for themselves is hardly democratic though, is it. Politicians are supposed to represent their constituents' interests, and most people, whatever their political persuasion can differentiate spin from facts. Everyone should be given the opportunity to choose and let's see what the population thinks is best for the country as a whole.

Hope you had a nice Birthday, Jack.

When you have such a misrepresentative and persuasive media, especially on certain issues, like we have in the UK then trusting the electorate with a referendum on a very important issue is not an risk worth taking, IMO. Of course I agree that people should be able to choose for themselves, and in fact I've always thought more referendums would only make politics more democratic and would engage those who feel disenfranchised - but it's an unfortunate truth, there are a lot of people in this country whose opinions are formed through the Mail, Express, The Sun and Murdoch's empire, and I don't want a decision on whether we should stay or leave the EU to be dictated by a biased and misleading press. That isn't good for the electorate at all. Maybe one day we'll be able to have an open and fair debate where all sides, pros and cons are presented - but that doesn't look possible any time soon. It's a media problem, not a political one.

Thank you, I had a great day!

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

The problem I see with a referendum (besides not knowing how I would even vote ) is that I think people who think 'grrr immigrants taking our jobs' and such would be much more likely to go and vote than people who don't really care much either way, or even those who would rather stay. The rags have done a fantastic job of whipping people into a frenzy about immigration...

Immigration and how much it costs us to stay in the EU seem to be all anyone talks about. They don't talk about the perks, such as loads more rights for workers and stuff.

I think it's the job of the pro-Europe lobby to get the facts out about the question of open borders. It's the job of both lobbies to give people the information they need, and I really do believe it's something that people will think seriously about because it's such an important question. But I do think people have a right to choose. People haven't been asked about this since we joined Europe, and it's a very different animal now to what it was then.

[MTVN]

I think that if there had been a referendum pre-2007 you'd have a strong majority wanting to stay in and most the media supporting staying in as well, if the majority of the press is now anti-EU it's with pretty good reason considering how much their credibility has been destroyed in the Eurozone crisis. In the same way there used to be reasonably strong support for the UK to adopt the euro but even the biggest Europhile would be reluctant to express that view now because it's generally accepted the last few years have proven them wrong and they've lost the argument

I still think a majority would vote to remain in the EU because you'd have all three main parties campaigning for it and ultimately people would consider it safer to remain involved and able to exert our influence in how it's run. But there are perfectly valid arguments for leaving that too often get presented as right wing propaganda and scaremongering

[Livia]

Great post MTVN, agree with all of that.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Livia

I think it's the job of the pro-Europe lobby to get the facts out about the question of open borders. It's the job of both lobbies to give people the information they need, and I really do believe it's something that people will think seriously about because it's such an important question. But I do think people have a right to choose. People haven't been asked about this since we joined Europe, and it's a very different animal now to what it was then.

I definitely agree with that.

Its harder to get a positive message out there though, because unfortunately stories about how the EU actually helps us are unlikely to sell as many papers or raise as much interest as a headline about Ajan Aboogala who arrived here a month ago, was given a 20 bed mansion on arrival and now claims Ł1267 per week in benefits for himself and his 62 children who live back in Slovakia or something

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Livia

When I referred to rhetoric, I meant yours, not the Tories'.

A link to the Guardian which is critical of the Tories and which cements your own opinion is about as unbiased as me giving you a link to the Daily Mail.

You'd think that it was only the Tories who use large advertising and PR agencies to get their message across to the "plebs". It isn't. I'm not sure what point you're trying to make in your second post there. Is it that people - except you of course - are too stupid to interpret information? Do you think everyone - except you of course - swallows everything the parties feed them? I'm not even sure where you were going with the "morning bowl of chemicals" thing.

Anyway, I've given my opinion. You don't have to like it, I'm not sue that I like it... but it's how I see it.

I don't have rhetoric I'm not a politician... I do however have an opinion. It was a link to David Camerons view of the EU, to reiterate my point about rights... but hey.
I do think a lot of people are swallowing the idea of opt out as they are perhaps focussing too intently on the immigration issue? Meanwhile all the worthwhile EU policies relating to rights and justice are not held up for as intense a debate... I feel they should be as big a priority but my guess is UKIP won't lead with those.
I said morning bowl of 'chemicals' instead of 'cornflakes', It's my attempt at humour

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Jack_

When you have such a misrepresentative and persuasive media, especially on certain issues, like we have in the UK then trusting the electorate with a referendum on a very important issue is not an risk worth taking, IMO. Of course I agree that people should be able to choose for themselves, and in fact I've always thought more referendums would only make politics more democratic and would engage those who feel disenfranchised - but it's an unfortunate truth, there are a lot of people in this country whose opinions are formed through the Mail, Express, The Sun and Murdoch's empire, and I don't want a decision on whether we should stay or leave the EU to be dictated by a biased and misleading press. That isn't good for the electorate at all. Maybe one day we'll be able to have an open and fair debate where all sides, pros and cons are presented - but that doesn't look possible any time soon. It's a media problem, not a political one.Thank you, I had a great day!

That is a great post Jack and all the valid reasons for not having a referendum in the next few years too,well said.

Whenever a referendum is held,if one ever is, then it should be held on the same day as a general election to get the biggest turnout possible rather than outside of a general election.

However, I say there will be no referendum in the next parliament unless,(and this is one of the biggest ever 'ifs' in politics in my view),the Conservatives got at least an 80+ overall majority.

Although were that awful scenario to happen, all powers that be will be needed to help the weak, poor, sick,disabled and most vulnerable with this really nasty, heartless bunch of Ministers there are at present in Govt.

Thankfully it won't happen,I am sure of that.