[smeagol]

Originally Posted by AnnieK

The kids go home at that time but the teachers I know actually don't leave until 5.30-6.00

thats cause the headmaster gave them detention

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by AnnieK

I don't think they're greedy Arista but I don't think they're as hard done to as they make out. I work as many hours, work from home when I'm not there and get paid less than a teacher who has been in the job as long as I have without the pension scheme they have....buti don't feel the need to walk out and lose money fighting a losing battle

Have you read any of Goves proposals for changes to teaching requirements for 'free' schools?
You can't equate your job with another and draw comparisons, do you assume teachers don't work from home?
Teachers pay into a pension throughout their career, you may not feel like it matters as it doesn't affect you or your family.. for those it does then I can appreciate it would be worth the battle.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Have you read any of Goves proposals for changes to teaching requirements for 'free' schools?
You can't equate your job with another and draw comparisons, do you assume teachers don't work from home?
Teachers pay into a pension throughout their career, you may not feel like it matters as it doesn't affect you or your family.. for those it does then I can appreciate it would be worth the battle.

They pay into a preferential local government pension scheme not open to people who don't work in local government. Many retire early, as you'll know if you really do know all about it. It's been an unfair system for a long, long time.

Of course you can equate your job with teaching. Well, not you, exactly... but some people can.

You say Annie might not feel like it matters as it doesn't affect her family. But you're not a teacher, are you. So referring to your last sentence, why do you imagine you have this profound insight into this issue and only you can appreciate "the battle".

[AnnieK]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Have you read any of Goves proposals for changes to teaching requirements for 'free' schools?
You can't equate your job with another and draw comparisons, do you assume teachers don't work from home?
Teachers pay into a pension throughout their career, you may not feel like it matters as it doesn't affect you or your family.. for those it does then I can appreciate it would be worth the battle.

And why can I not equate my job to others and draw comparisons? Thats one thing that teachers are doing? They say for the hours they put in, they are making less money than a lot of manual workers. I am saying for the hours I put in I make less that a teacher. Exactly the same.

You also have no idea how it may/may not affect MY family so please don't try to assume how it would affect me.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Livia

They pay into a preferential local government pension scheme not open to people who don't work in local government. Many retire early, as you'll know if you really do know all about it. It's been an unfair system for a long, long time.

Of course you can equate your job with teaching. Well, not you, exactly... but some people can.

You say Annie might not feel like it matters as it doesn't affect her family. But you're not a teacher, are you. So referring to your last sentence, why do you imagine you have this profound insight into this issue and only you can appreciate "the battle".

Yes I did know, and why is this so upsetting to some? They have educated themselves to such a standard that for the good of future generations they pass that on, and in return they receive a pension... Why does that stick in the craw of anyone? I don't know, I have teachers in my family that are stressed and struggling atm, it's hard to see and I empathise... it's a liberating emotion I recommend it..
I'll avoid your italics if I may, as it doesn't make your point any more valid.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by AnnieK

And why can I not equate my job to others and draw comparisons? Thats one thing that teachers are doing? They say for the hours they put in, they are making less money than a lot of manual workers. I am saying for the hours I put in I make less that a teacher. Exactly the same.

You also have no idea how it may/may not affect MY family so please don't try to assume how it would affect me.

I said that as untill you are in the situation where you're faced with the prospect of having to act you may feel differently, I thought it was a little flippant and dismissive just to simplify it down to hours worked. It's quite obviously more complex than that.
You're assuming things annie, if you can do it we all can.
I don't like the way all sections of society are being steamrollered atm, education, health and welfare all the things implemented to protect us from the five giants, take them away and for our kids the future suddenly looks very bleak.

[arista]

[Teachers will strike for one day in
the week beginning June 23 if "significant" progress
is not made to resolve the long-running dispute.
The NUT's 900 delegates voted overwhelmingly for
the walkout at the union's annual conference
in Brighton, where angry rhetoric was aimed
towards Education Secretary Michael Gove.]


http://news.sky.com/story/1246406/te...trike-over-pay

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Yes I did know, and why is this so upsetting to some? They have educated themselves to such a standard that for the good of future generations they pass that on, and in return they receive a pension... Why does that stick in the craw of anyone? I don't know, I have teachers in my family that are stressed and struggling atm, it's hard to see and I empathise... it's a liberating emotion I recommend it..
I'll avoid your italics if I may, as it doesn't make your point any more valid.

It doesn't stick in my craw. Filing clerks, dustmen, cleaners at the council get the same kind pension and they aren't usually accused of overeducating themselves. And that's the thing with teachers... people think they've educated themselves to such a standard that they are going to impart the knowledge to future generations. Fact is, they're pretty good at remembering ONE subject, they've hardly ever had experience of having a real job in the real world and yet they're going to prepare kids to do just that, live in the real world. it's laughable! Next you'll tell me having a degree makes you intelligent.

Yes I have teachers in my family too. But as you've picked me up on talking about any personal connection to ANY subject, I fail to see how your own personal connection is more relevant.

I empathise and feel liberated sometimes too, despite my busy schedule. But only when people deserve it.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

I said that as untill you are in the situation where you're faced with the prospect of having to act you may feel differently, I thought it was a little flippant and dismissive just to simplify it down to hours worked. It's quite obviously more complex than that.
You're assuming things annie, if you can do it we all can.
I don't like the way all sections of society are being steamrollered atm, education, health and welfare all the things implemented to protect us from the five giants, take them away and for our kids the future suddenly looks very bleak.

So, you've been in that position yourself? That's what makes your own view more important than anyone else's?

Or is that just you being a little flippant?

[AnnieK]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

I said that as untill you are in the situation where you're faced with the prospect of having to act you may feel differently, I thought it was a little flippant and dismissive just to simplify it down to hours worked. It's quite obviously more complex than that.
You're assuming things annie, if you can do it we all can.
I don't like the way all sections of society are being steamrollered atm, education, health and welfare all the things implemented to protect us from the five giants, take them away and for our kids the future suddenly looks very bleak.

I am not assuming anything personally towards you though Kizzy which is the difference.

Why is it dismissive? I'm not sure I understand that, the teachers are doing exactly that when talking about pay...I am doing the same.

We are not on as different pages as you think regarding this, I appreciate it's a hard job but so are so many others who are equally as qualified but not as protected by unions, excellent pensions etc.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Livia

It doesn't stick in my craw. Filing clerks, dustmen, cleaners at the council get the same kind pension and they aren't usually accused of overeducating themselves. And that's the thing with teachers... people think they've educated themselves to such a standard that they are going to impart the knowledge to future generations. Fact is, they're pretty good at remembering ONE subject, they've hardly ever had experience of having a real job in the real world and yet they're going to prepare kids to do just that, live in the real world. it's laughable! Next you'll tell me having a degree makes you intelligent.

Yes I have teachers in my family too. But as you've picked me up on talking about any personal connection to ANY subject, I fail to see how your own personal connection is more relevant.

I empathise and feel liberated sometimes too, despite my busy schedule. But only when people deserve it.

Right you've lost me. what is the issue with the teachers now?
Who do you want to educate children, if a degree and experience as a student teacher is not enough, how much life experience do you need then to be competant in any profession?
You're not making much sense at all to be fair livia, I'm not saying my opinion or personal experience is any more or less valid, I'm just trying to look at the bigger picture here.
Well when you have to worry about your childrens education then you may sympathise, or not ...they may not be faced with the prospect of being taught by teachers with a couple of NVQs.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by AnnieK

I am not assuming anything personally towards you though Kizzy which is the difference.

Why is it dismissive? I'm not sure I understand that, the teachers are doing exactly that when talking about pay...I am doing the same.

We are not on as different pages as you think regarding this, I appreciate it's a hard job but so are so many others who are equally as qualified but not as protected by unions, excellent pensions etc.

The teachers are doing it and they are directly affected, you're not, that was my point.
They work in the public sector that's why annie, they work in difficult areas and under difficult conditions, in the private sector it's very different.
Where would we be without these people? Teachers, police and fire staff, even the armed forces... does anyone have an issue with them receiving a state pension?... No.