[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Ammi

..well I read about it on the forum anyway so I'm just assuming that it did happen...

[Ammi]

..it isn't a case of being 'big' though or having anymore insight than anyone else..it's not 'big' to be so harsh on Ashleigh and 'unforgiving' of Ashleigh either or any other housemate/but say nice things about Helen..it's just being the same but with a different housemate..things have been said like...oh, that time she bitched with Danielle in the pod/disgusting/vile person..I remember that/won't forget it.....yet Ashleigh and Helen seem to be reaching an understanding of each other that they didn't have then, so they're ok with everything ...and the same with the Wayne Rooney thing, so Colleen has 'forgiven' so why can't other people...it just makes no sense to say one thing but not have it apply elsewhere...there is no 'big' here or anything, just differences in perspectives and how we see things and through our own personal experiences what character flaws we see as 'worse' than others etc...

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

..I actually don't mind him now tbh in that I haven't heard anything that has given me an impression he didn't learn something by his experience in the house...and it's never too late etc, so hopefully he did...

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Ammi

..I actually don't mind him now tbh in that I haven't heard anything that has given me an impression he didn't learn something by his experience in the house...and it's never too late etc, so hopefully he did...

I doubt it, and now he feels justified so he won't learn a thing he didn't give a toss.

I don't mind ashleigh actually I think her and helen are quite similar and that's why they clash, helens said it before, they're both bitches.

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

I doubt it, and now he feels justified so he won't learn a thing he didn't give a toss.

I don't mind ashleigh actually I think her and helen are quite similar and that's why they clash, helens said it before, they're both bitches.

..I think they're quite different in a lot of ways or their lives are turning out differently atm and I'm not getting at Helen or 'hating' on her but I do think she looks at Ashleigh as someone 'having it easier' than she did in what she's achieved and maybe what Helen had to do in her life/the choices she felt she had at that age/or maybe didn't have family support..?..and there was some resentment, maybe jealousy there in the beginning..?..but that's before they actually gave each other a chance to start to understand each other and I think they're both guilty of judging, so similar in that way....the odd thing is though and why I personally get frustrated with Helen is that she's been hurt so much by being judged herself but is so much like that with others....

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Ammi

..I think they're quite different in a lot of ways or their lives are turning out differently atm and I'm not getting at Helen or 'hating' on her but I do think she looks at Ashleigh as someone 'having it easier' than she did in what she's achieved and maybe what Helen had to do in her life/the choices she felt she had at that age/or maybe didn't have family support..?..and there was some resentment, maybe jealousy there in the beginning..?..but that's before they actually gave each other a chance to start to understand each other and I think they're both guilty of judging, so similar in that way....the odd thing is though and why I personally get frustrated with Helen is that she's been hurt so much by being judged herself but is so much like that with others....

Well yes no two people can be similar in every way
I don't think it was on such a personal level but maybe they are both alpha types and saw each other as a threat in the competition?
Everyone judges, whether or not you have been judged yourself. She is changing, it may be the warning it might not but there has been a positive change.

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Well yes no two people can be similar in every way
I don't think it was on such a personal level but maybe they are both alpha types and saw each other as a threat in the competition?
Everyone judges, whether or not you have been judged yourself. She is changing, it may be the warning it might not but there has been a positive change.

..I would say in general that the females have been the alphas of the house this year and much stronger characters than the males and of the females after Toya and Pauline left, Helen and Ashleigh have been the strongest characters and both 'fighters and survivors' so I would say that's probably true to some extent....

[sampvt]

Originally Posted by Ammi

..I would say in general that the females have been the alphas of the house this year and much stronger characters than the males and of the females after Toya and Pauline left, Helen and Ashleigh have been the strongest characters and both 'fighters and survivors' so I would say that's probably true to some extent....

Being an absolute bitch does not give you an alpha badge. An Alpha figure is respected and trusted. Neither of them are alphas. The alpha in that house is the person everyone goes to when they need advice and need to talk to when problems arise. The alpha is the person who has a seat or place where he is found and can be consulted. The alpha is the person that stays calm under pressure, the alpha is the person that holds an audience and when he leaves, they all leave. In closing an alpha does not have to be the head of the gang, an alpha is the person who everyone feels comfortable with.

There is only one person that fits that bill and its Ash. He is a silent warrior and has the attention and love of all in there, he does not need to be screaming all the time. He is the alpha and of that there is no dispute. Helen looks up to him.

If you want confirmation of that fact, look at who challenged him yesterday when he was trying to be mad. They all just laughed nervously.

[jet]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

I doubt it, and now he feels justified so he won't learn a thing he didn't give a toss.

I don't mind ashleigh actually I think her and helen are quite similar and that's why they clash, helens said it before, they're both bitches.

Maybe, but only one of them is a bully and it ain't Ashleigh.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by jet

Maybe, but only one of them is a bully and it ain't Ashleigh.

She was a whispering assassin with both toya and danielle so I don't feel that's strictly true.
Her strategy was just different is all.

[sampvt]

Originally Posted by jet

Maybe, but only one of them is a bully and it ain't Ashleigh.

The simple fact that Helens tactics and outward bitchiness is there for all to see, affords her the luxury of being transparent and being transparent is an endearing quality to have.

Ashleigh on the other hand has to go into the DR to unload he game plans, she goes up to the pod to bitch in silence with her little band, formerly Danielle and now Chris. She is the one that makes the bullets and is now letting Chris fire them for her and to prove this point, everyone she befriends gets evicted.

She is the girl at school that talks about people she hates to other girls that she knows will do her dirty work, she is the girl in the street who's mummy lets her stay up late, she is the girl in life who seems to have everything and she is the girl in business that has never been argued with and cant understand how people can be so nasty when they go up against her.

Ashleigh is a nice girl in her own right, she shows that when things are going her way but as soon as she is embroiled in a situation where she is under pressure, the only way she knows how to deal with it is to revert back to tactics that involve others fighting her battles and she keeps electing mammy figures in the house to hide behind.

Watch what happens when she gets under pressure, she runs to her cohorts. normal people get upset and show emotions on their own. Ashleigh gathers an audience then turns on the bitchy tap.

In short, Helen is open, Ashleigh is anything but. Helen wins that battle in my book. Now you choose who is the bully.

[Jake.]

Originally Posted by sampvt

The simple fact that Helens tactics and outward bitchiness is there for all to see, affords her the luxury of being transparent and being transparent is an endearing quality to have.

No it isn't.. People use the 'telling it how it is' card to be as disgustingly rude and brash as they like, not caring for how they make others feel

[jet]

Originally Posted by Jake.

No it isn't.. People use the 'telling it how it is' card to be as disgustingly rude and brash as they like, not caring for how they make others feel

It's surprisingly seen as an asset, depending on who does it of course.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Jake.

No it isn't.. People use the 'telling it how it is' card to be as disgustingly rude and brash as they like, not caring for how they make others feel

Oh don't I know that!

[jet]

Originally Posted by sampvt

The simple fact that Helens tactics and outward bitchiness is there for all to see, affords her the luxury of being transparent and being transparent is an endearing quality to have.

Ashleigh on the other hand has to go into the DR to unload he game plans, she goes up to the pod to bitch in silence with her little band, formerly Danielle and now Chris. She is the one that makes the bullets and is now letting Chris fire them for her and to prove this point, everyone she befriends gets evicted.

She is the girl at school that talks about people she hates to other girls that she knows will do her dirty work, she is the girl in the street who's mummy lets her stay up late, she is the girl in life who seems to have everything and she is the girl in business that has never been argued with and cant understand how people can be so nasty when they go up against her.

Ashleigh is a nice girl in her own right, she shows that when things are going her way but as soon as she is embroiled in a situation where she is under pressure, the only way she knows how to deal with it is to revert back to tactics that involve others fighting her battles and she keeps electing mammy figures in the house to hide behind.

Watch what happens when she gets under pressure, she runs to her cohorts. normal people get upset and show emotions on their own. Ashleigh gathers an audience then turns on the bitchy tap.

In short, Helen is open, Ashleigh is anything but. Helen wins that battle in my book. Now you choose who is the bully.

BB already did that - Helen.
I don't recognize the Ashleigh you describe, but then its only your opinion which of course you are entitled to.

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by sampvt

The simple fact that Helens tactics and outward bitchiness is there for all to see, affords her the luxury of being transparent and being transparent is an endearing quality to have.

Ashleigh on the other hand has to go into the DR to unload he game plans, she goes up to the pod to bitch in silence with her little band, formerly Danielle and now Chris. She is the one that makes the bullets and is now letting Chris fire them for her and to prove this point, everyone she befriends gets evicted.

She is the girl at school that talks about people she hates to other girls that she knows will do her dirty work, she is the girl in the street who's mummy lets her stay up late, she is the girl in life who seems to have everything and she is the girl in business that has never been argued with and cant understand how people can be so nasty when they go up against her.

Ashleigh is a nice girl in her own right, she shows that when things are going her way but as soon as she is embroiled in a situation where she is under pressure, the only way she knows how to deal with it is to revert back to tactics that involve others fighting her battles and she keeps electing mammy figures in the house to hide behind.

Watch what happens when she gets under pressure, she runs to her cohorts. normal people get upset and show emotions on their own. Ashleigh gathers an audience then turns on the bitchy tap.

In short, Helen is open, Ashleigh is anything but. Helen wins that battle in my book. Now you choose who is the bully.

..in a one to one though Sam, Helen's bitchiness isn't always there for everyone to see, she can have a conversation with someone, as can Ashleigh and they can both come to understandings of each other but Helen when she verbally abususes always has done it with a 'pack' behind her so that's not 'brave' and honest is it..?..bitching on any degree does not overstep any social boundaries with someone and become personal in the way that thinking you have the right to be offensive and abusive to someone's face does....hmmm, I'm trying to think of an analogy..with comedians/the controversial ones, their topics are of a lot of things that some would deem as 'offensive material' and others wouldn't..?...but if they were to be specific and offend a specific person, name that person type thing...?..then I think most of us would say...too far...and when someone is arrogant enough to feel that it's their right to abuse someone/name call to their face then how more personal can you get and it crosses social boundaries....

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Ammi

..in a one to one though Sam, Helen's bitchiness isn't always there for everyone to see, she can have a conversation with someone, as can Ashleigh and they can both come to understandings of each other but Helen when she verbally abususes always has done it with a 'pack' behind her so that's not 'brave' and honest is it..?..bitching on any degree does not overstep any social boundaries with someone and become personal in the way that thinking you have the right to be offensive and abusive to someone's face does....hmmm, I'm trying to think of an analogy..with comedians/the controversial ones, their topics are of a lot of things that some would deem as 'offensive material' and others wouldn't..?...but if they were to be specific and offend a specific person, name that person type thing...?..then I think most of us would say...too far...and when someone is arrogant enough to feel that it's their right to abuse someone/name call to their face then how more personal can you get and it crosses social boundaries....

What about katie price?... she's been named in a 'comedic' sense and that was accepted as it's her and as it's a socially acceptable norm apparently to be as derogatory as you like about her seemingly.