[Ellen]

Originally Posted by Ammi

..(just a little afterthought with the 'control'..)...Mark said last night that he felt Helen 'had his back' as in she looked out for him/was a 'good' friend etc...the thing about that is and the thing about Helen is she doesn't 'defend' her friends, she 'excuses' them regardless of every and any situation and their part played in it...and so she stops herself from 'looking and listening' all the time/she 'stunts' herself...I think maybe some people were happy to have that in the house/to have a Helen in the house 'fighting their corner' and so many things have been missed by them which is why they're now in complete confusion as to why the public are voting their 'clique' out/they really don't get it at all...the others..the 'outsiders' have looked more at every situation and judged those situations with eyes and ears and have defended when they felt it was right but not 'excused' when they felt someone, even a 'friend' wasn't in the right...and it is a control Jet..you're right...it's a very negative control because Helen doesn't see things objectively but only 'judges' things and people in terms of her personal likes and dislikes of them and those likes and dislikes come from whether they themselves 'excuse' her which people like Ashleigh, Christopher and Chris haven't....

When you make friends you become more aware of their reaction to things so will defend if you feel a friend has been hurt even if they have been in the wrong.
Regarding her judging people, she was friends with Mark who has told her she was wrong and OTT more than once but she still remained friends with him.
The 'outsiders' have excused others when they were in the wrong, Chris has done it with Ashleigh & Danielle, Ashleigh has done it with Danielle and neither one has told that person they were in the wrong.
No one likes to see a friend upset or have their feelings hurt & you will defend them because of that. They have all done that to some extent.

[poppsywoppsy]

Originally Posted by Kazanne

Oh another Helen hate thread,so boring, no need to read we already know what it says,she's been great imo and that's all that matters,she's kept certain people in posts going anyway,imagine the forum without her

Well there is the Helen mentality reflected.

Said in a foghorn drawl. " I know what I/she is like, but you don't listen, you don't see it like I do, you'r wrong, how can I make it so you get it, because you don't get it like I do. (Expletives every other word removed).

[Ammi]

..oh the other thing is that after they all 'escaped' etc..Mark had wanted to talk about it/was talking about it and she sharply told him not to/not to 'give them what they wanted..'...(I still don't understand whether she meant the other HMs or BB..)..but anyways, Ashleigh's comment was in no way a 'demand for an apology..'..it was a comment that no remorse had been shown not for the actual thing but for the punishment they all got for it...it's kind of 'never let the facts get in the way of personal feelings' for Helen....if Ashleigh's comment could be perceived as a 'demand' then so could hers to Mark....

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Ellen

When you make friends you become more aware of their reaction to things so will defend if you feel a friend has been hurt even if they have been in the wrong.
Regarding her judging people, she was friends with Mark who has told her she was wrong and OTT more than once but she still remained friends with him.
The 'outsiders' have excused others when they were in the wrong, Chris has done it with Ashleigh & Danielle, Ashleigh has done it with Danielle and neither one has told that person they were in the wrong.
No one likes to see a friend upset or have their feelings hurt & you will defend them because of that. They have all done that to some extent.

..I agree that they've all done it, we've all done it ourselves at times and do with housemates to an extent but it's the 'blind extreme' of doing it with Helen though and even on reflection after she has reacted, it makes no difference..she's always right, always right, always right...and with that, it excludes any objectivity in any situation....

[Kazanne]

Originally Posted by poppsywoppsy

Well there is the Helen mentality reflected.

Said in a foghorn drawl. " I know what I/she is like, but you don't listen, you don't see it like I do, you'r wrong, how can I make it so you get it, because you don't get it like I do. (Expletives every other word removed).

Please elaborate on the Helen mentality? I have heard all the dross before,there is no need for it to be said over and over,once is quite enough,so less of the sly Ashleigh mentality digs.(said in a sly Irish whisper!!!)

[MrWong]

Originally Posted by Kazanne

Oh another Helen hate thread,so boring, no need to read we already know what it says,she's been great imo and that's all that matters,she's kept certain people in posts going anyway,imagine the forum without her

If only your reaction was the same to all the Ashleigh hate threads.

Instead, you actively join in.

[Kazanne]

Originally Posted by MrWong

If only your reaction was the same to all the Ashleigh hate threads.

Instead, you actively join in.

As I am entitalled to,and will continue to do so,big difference I don't keep making Ashleigh 'hate' threads now do I?

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Kazanne

Please elaborate on the Helen mentality? I have heard all the dross before,there is no need for it to be said over and over,once is quite enough,so less of the sly Ashleigh mentality digs.(said in a sly Irish whisper!!!)

..to be fair I was reading another thread about 'the escape' and people who don't like Ashleigh were saying ..oh, it would be different if it was Ashleigh/then it would be ok/funny/hypocrites etc...and people who liked Ashleigh we're being scoffed at and called hypocrites for not criticising Ashleigh for something she had no part in and it was just being 'presumed'..there are endless other threads doing the same and of both sets of fans and it's all wrong and not necessary to refer to fans for their opinions rather than HMs for their actions only...I'm agreeing with you that it's all tedious and wrong from everyone....as if we haven't had enough to comment on and discuss in the house anyway this year...

[MrWong]

Originally Posted by Kazanne

As I am entitalled to,and will continue to do so,big difference I don't keep making Ashleigh 'hate' threads now do I?

Never said you did. I said you actively join in yet bemoan hate threads about Helen.

[poppsywoppsy]

Originally Posted by Kazanne

Please elaborate on the Helen mentality? I have heard all the dross before,there is no need for it to be said over and over,once is quite enough,so less of the sly Ashleigh mentality digs.(said in a sly Irish whisper!!!)

I had already elaborated on the Helen mentality in the post.

It also reflects that those who support her may miss the point as often as she does.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Ammi

..to be fair I was reading another thread about 'the escape' and people who don't like Ashleigh were saying ..oh, it would be different if it was Ashleigh/then it would be ok/funny/hypocrites etc...and people who liked Ashleigh we're being scoffed at and called hypocrites for not criticising Ashleigh for something she had no part in and it was just being 'presumed'..there are endless other threads doing the same and of both sets of fans and it's all wrong and not necessary to refer to fans for their opinions rather than HMs for their actions only...I'm agreeing with you that it's all tedious and wrong from everyone....as if we haven't had enough to comment on and discuss in the house anyway this year...

Why does it all have to come back to her at all?

[Jake.]

This series has been dreadful since week 4, so good on her for 'making' it what it is..

[Robodog]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

The same with me.
Ashleigh was in my top 5 of housemates and Helen my 15th of 16 in the early weeks.
Then I looked for better in Helen and saw quite a bit too so gave her the credit for that.
She is not all bad just as Ashleigh is not all good in my opinion.

I also believe she would be a loyal friend to those she comes to feel she can trust.
She has a lot of complex issues and things she needs to see as to herself but I have seen her be a good friend to those she has come to trust and feel closer to.

Those she doesn't trust and doesn't like are also left in no doubt that's what she thinks as to them and I prefer that too in people.

For me she has been a major part of this series all the way through.

Agreed. Good points, well explained.

[Kazanne]

Originally Posted by MrWong

Never said you did. I said you actively join in yet bemoan hate threads about Helen.

Well,,of course I do I don't like the girl so will comment,isn't that why we all comment? or are we not allowed to comment negatively on her?and c'mon how many more Helen hate threads do we really need the forums full of them,we get the message,no need to keep it on repeat.I like Helen,so obviously will say so

[Kizzy]

And as the OP says helen has however positively/ negatively you view her made the series.. no doubt about it.

Helen has controlled everything and 'made' this series

Yes, yes she has.

[MrWong]

Originally Posted by Kazanne

Well,,of course I do I don't like the girl so will comment,isn't that why we all comment? or are we not allowed to comment negatively on her?and c'mon how many more Helen hate threads do we really need the forums full of them,we get the message,no need to keep it on repeat.I like Helen,so obviously will say so

Why do you keep attributing **** to me that I haven't said?

Just pointing out the double standards. Ashleigh hate threads fine. Helen hate threads not fine.

[Tip]

BB has controlled everything and "made" this series pretty much - and it hasn't been great in my view.

The Winston out campaign success however, makes it feel that the public got a chance of control and "making" something of what's left of this dismal series.

(Arguments about how the threads on this forum are administered don't really interest me, I'm sure moderators could merge threads or whatever - it's not worth arguing about in my view)

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Tip

BB has controlled everything and "made" this series pretty much - and it hasn't been great in my view.

The Winston out campaign success however, makes it feel that the public got a chance of control and "making" something of what's left of this dismal series.

(Arguments about how the threads on this forum are administered don't really interest me, I'm sure moderators could merge threads or whatever - it's not worth arguing about in my view)

The fixated fans that contribute to these campaigns only serve to make the show a mockery of what it should be really.

[Livia]

Everyone who's been close to Helen has been picked off by the public one at a time. Now she's left with just Ash. I think that says everything about Helen, her clique and their attitude that anyone needs to know. People don't like aggressive bullies and they don't like bitchy cliques.

[Tip]

Fixated fans support the show and keep it going, however fixated fans also take it all too seriously and forget that in fact it is actually a very light entertainment show where winning / losing actually means very little at all in the grand scheme of things.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Tip

Fixated fans support the show and keep it going, however fixated fans also take it all too seriously and forget that in fact it is actually a very light entertainment show where winning / losing actually means very little at all in the grand scheme of things.

True, winston was a victim of this mentality, it had nothing to do with him or his friends in the house.

[Kazanne]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

True, winston was a victim of this mentality, it had nothing to do with him or his friends in the house.

exactly,if only people were honest enough to admit that.

[jet]

Originally Posted by Ammi

..(just a little afterthought with the 'control'..)...Mark said last night that he felt Helen 'had his back' as in she looked out for him/was a 'good' friend etc...the thing about that is and the thing about Helen is she doesn't 'defend' her friends, she 'excuses' them regardless of every and any situation and their part played in it...and so she stops herself from 'looking and listening' all the time/she 'stunts' herself...I think maybe some people were happy to have that in the house/to have a Helen in the house 'fighting their corner' and so many things have been missed by them which is why they're now in complete confusion as to why the public are voting their 'clique' out/they really don't get it at all...the others..the 'outsiders' have looked more at every situation and judged those situations with eyes and ears and have defended when they felt it was right but not 'excused' when they felt someone, even a 'friend' wasn't in the right...and it is a control Jet..you're right...it's a very negative control because Helen doesn't see things objectively but only 'judges' things and people in terms of her personal likes and dislikes of them and those likes and dislikes come from whether they themselves 'excuse' her which people like Ashleigh, Christopher and Chris haven't....

Love your thoughts Ammi...
yes, those who put up with Helen or don't mind her behaviour will get an easier time from Helen than those who don't, and even then those she likes will get a lashing if they displease her. How different would she have been if Ashleigh hadn't been there?
If we were to take her out of the picture altogether it would have been a different story. I think Helen felt unsettled and threatened by Ashleigh's maturity, strength and obvious repugnance at her behaviour. So I believe at least some of Helen's nastiness stemmed from the realization that there was someone in the house she was definitely not going to be able to 'control'.
For I think it's all about control, and as Ammi said, a negative one, and not being able to control is an issue for Helen.
Ashleigh in particular has been Helen's nemesis, and as Helen is the type of person I would have no respect for and dislike intensely Ashleigh is the star of the show for me and to many others too it seems.

[Tip]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

True, winston was a victim of this mentality, it had nothing to do with him or his friends in the house.

If it's that important, maybe people shouldn't apply to enter what is after all a bit of light and trivial entertainment - they are a victim of wanting to be a part of it.

They get to be on tv, take part in the program and go home afterwards maybe with a prize and maybe not. They aren't hard done by in the least unless people blow it all out of any realistic sense of proportion.

It's a popularity contest - and there isn't a great deal of high moral ground to be made out of that either which way.

[Kizzy]

I'm not blowing anything out of proportion, VTS this week would have stopped any negative campaigns is all.
Looking at it objectively it's clear that VTE was pivotal in that, regardless of what kind of housemate you are or what your expectations are.