[daniel-lewis-1985]

If that's what they want then that's what they should get.

I do not believe however if say 51% of the Scots wanted to become independent and succeeded. Its unfair on the other half of the country who want to stay united.

This really should be a vote where if 80% of the population wants to become independent then fair enough and not as it currently is about to reward half the nation and punish the other half apposed.

[Brother Leon]

Originally Posted by NovoBaratheon

All the Scottish clubs should apply to play in the English football league quickly, or we should just offer them a place to put the final nail in the SNPs coffin

We don't want you fam

[Novo]

Don't leave us to Rot in the Wastelands

[Crimson Dynamo]

https://gallery.mailchimp.com/3d8f58..._points_1_.pdf


regarding RBS

have a butchers

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by daniel-lewis-1985

If that's what they want then that's what they should get.

I do not believe however if say 51% of the Scots wanted to become independent and succeeded. Its unfair on the other half of the country who want to stay united.

This really should be a vote where if 80% of the population wants to become independent then fair enough and not as it currently is about to reward half the nation and punish the other half apposed.

welcome to democracy

[Z]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

welcome to democracy

Specifically, welcome to the number one problem with "first past the post" voting - where as long as you're the majority winner, it doesn't matter how many people are against. I find it shocking that we have general elections where a party can be dubbed the winner with less than 40% of the popular vote, never mind less than 50%!

6 days to go and I still haven't made my mind up. The one good thing to come out of all of this is I've never in my life encountered so many people so interested in politics, ever.

[arista]

Youtube video

Just Recorded this



Love the BBC Scotland Sign in the background
you get it more clear towards the end.

[Angelika]

Originally Posted by michael21

what the hell are you talking about i saying england should also get to vote in the scotland independence referendum which is what this thread is about

Those who pay should say!

I think everyone in the UK should get proportional representation in Scotland's referendum. It affects us in the rest of the UK as much as it affects Scotland's residents. Scottish people live all over the UK and across the globe. Why should so few decide the fate of so many.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by daniel-lewis-1985

I do not believe however if say 51% of the Scots wanted to become independent and succeeded. Its unfair on the other half of the country who want to stay united.

But then how is that not unfair on the half that voted to separate?

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Angelika

Those who pay should say!

I think everyone in the UK should get proportional representation in Scotland's referendum. It affects us in the rest of the UK as much as it affects Scotland's residents. Scottish people live all over the UK and across the globe. Why should so few decide the fate of so many.

This is a really good point, how much will it weaken our GDP without Scotland in the union?

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

This is a really good point, how much will it weaken our GDP without Scotland in the union?

without euro friendly scotlands millions of votes, how will the 2017 euro referendum swing towards getting out of europe?

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

without euro friendly scotlands millions of votes, how will the 2017 euro referendum swing towards getting out of europe?

There will nver be one LT, even if David Cameron and his nasty party won the 2015 election, he will not be able to deliver a referendum,no matter what he says in the election.

He will find a way to wriggle out of it and unless he gets an overall majority of at least 90, he will be able to blame a likely rebellion in his own party and say he hasn't the arithmetic to get a referendum bill through.

This is one PM that in my view can never be trusted with referenda as to the EU or even that his word will ever mean anything either as to one.

[michael21]

Originally Posted by arista

Youtube video

Just Recorded this



Love the BBC Scotland Sign in the background
you get it more clear towards the end.

aristatibb7

[jaxie]

I have to say the one thing that irritates me a bit about the whole referendum is that should a yes vote go ahead then the divorce will greatly impact the other countries in the union in many ways social, economic, defense, not to mention the possibility of having to have a passport to go to Scotland, but none of us get a say? That seems incredibly unfair to me.

[Beastie]

They will definitely be staying.

[Angelika]

The sensible option is to stay.

[Anaesthesia]

To fully resolve / prepare for all the issues that would arise from devolution it would take at least 10 years. Not saying I wouldn't support an independent Scotland, I just think the sensible vote, right now, would be a resounding NO.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Anaesthesia

To fully resolve / prepare for all the issues that would arise from devolution it would take at least 10 years. Not saying I wouldn't support an independent Scotland, I just think the sensible vote, right now, would be a resounding NO.

I agree with that.

[arista]

Youtube video

Brian Cox
making great points
I took this from BBC This week
which I recorded on thursday.

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Of course it affects England but England forced Scotland to become part of the UK in the first place so it should be Scotlands choice now whether they want to stay or not, don't you think?

That's not really true. It all began in 1603 when Elizabeth 1 died. The heir to her throne was James, King of Scotland, her cousin, who then became James 1 of Scotland and England. The union came about initially in the form of treaties uniting the countries under one crown. No one was forced, I imagine James was thrilled to bits with his shiny new crown!

The rest of the union, England, Wales and Northern Ireland should get a say in the vote because like any divorce we will all be affected by the break up and it's going to be expensive and complex. I think it's far less about losing the oil which is depleting anyway and far more about the expense and the logistics of the break up for the rest of the union as to why many would prefer Scotland to stay.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by jaxie

I have to say the one thing that irritates me a bit about the whole referendum is that should a yes vote go ahead then the divorce will greatly impact the other countries in the union in many ways social, economic, defense, not to mention the possibility of having to have a passport to go to Scotland, but none of us get a say? That seems incredibly unfair to me.

To suggest that a smaller nation wishing to split from a (much) larger one should be able to be forced to stay at the whim of said larger nation, for their own benefit, sounds a whole lot like tyranny. I'm not saying that Scotland will vote for independence, the truth is it's unlikely, but in these scenarios the decision MUST always be in the hands of smaller separating group. They must decide to stay, or to leave. To say that the more powerful entity should be able to force the union to remain is terrifying and a million miles from anything resembling democracy. Voters are outnumbered 10/1 by the larger nation.

I mean, would you say the same of EU membership? Let's say the government of the UK and 80% of the population (50+ million) want to leave the European Union... but oh wait, the other 445 million people in Europe get to vote, too, and having the UK in Europe is good For Europe so... tough?

[bots]

Originally Posted by jaxie

I have to say the one thing that irritates me a bit about the whole referendum is that should a yes vote go ahead then the divorce will greatly impact the other countries in the union in many ways social, economic, defense, not to mention the possibility of having to have a passport to go to Scotland, but none of us get a say? That seems incredibly unfair to me.

Not wishing to stir it too much but .....

If the UK government had acknowledged and rewarded Scotland appropriately for the contribution that it brings to the union, we wouldn't be in this situation now. Whether right or wrong, the perception for many, many years amongst Scots has been that Scotland has been the poor cousin and that the UK is not inclusive enough of the people that it represents.

As a Scot living in England, I would love to have had a vote, after all it is my country that is affected. But, I'm not living there, that was my choice, it should be up to the people actually living in Scotland that choose its future direction.

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

To suggest that a smaller nation wishing to split from a (much) larger one should be able to be forced to stay at the whim of said larger nation, for their own benefit, sounds a whole lot like tyranny. I'm not saying that Scotland will vote for independence, the truth is it's unlikely, but in these scenarios the decision MUST always be in the hands of smaller separating group. They must decide to stay, or to leave. To say that the more powerful entity should be able to force the union to remain is terrifying and a million miles from anything resembling democracy. Voters are outnumbered 10/1 by the larger nation.

I mean, would you say the same of EU membership? Let's say the government of the UK and 80% of the population (50+ million) want to leave the European Union... but oh wait, the other 445 million people in Europe get to vote, too, and having the UK in Europe is good For Europe so... tough?

But that is not what I said at all is it?

What I said was that my future and many others is also being decided and I find it unfair that I have no say at all whatsoever. You have no way of knowing that the union would be 'forced' if the rest of the UK had a vote because we don't get a say, there is no way to know how we would vote. Of course the people of Scotland have the right to decide their own future but you can't say the rest of us don't have some rights when things effect us either. How would the people of Scotland feel if we all had a vote about something that dramatically changed their country and left them out?

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

Not wishing to stir it too much but .....

If the UK government had acknowledged and rewarded Scotland appropriately for the contribution that it brings to the union, we wouldn't be in this situation now. Whether right or wrong, the perception for many, many years amongst Scots has been that Scotland has been the poor cousin and that the UK is not inclusive enough of the people that it represents.

As a Scot living in England, I would love to have had a vote, after all it is my country that is affected. But, I'm not living there, that was my choice, it should be up to the people actually living in Scotland that choose its future direction.

Spot on. If there is a 'no' vote, I really hope the main parties of Westminster have at the very least learned that and take that on board too and stop using Scotland as a dumping ground and a experiment as to really unpleasant social policies too.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

Not wishing to stir it too much but .....

If the UK government had acknowledged and rewarded Scotland appropriately for the contribution that it brings to the union, we wouldn't be in this situation now. Whether right or wrong, the perception for many, many years amongst Scots has been that Scotland has been the poor cousin and that the UK is not inclusive enough of the people that it represents.

As a Scot living in England, I would love to have had a vote, after all it is my country that is affected. But, I'm not living there, that was my choice, it should be up to the people actually living in Scotland that choose its future direction.

There are large pockets of social disadvantage across the union, the British government has mismanaged recent sell offs that could have been used to fund projects to improve these... Instead the welfare reforms put the faces of those already down due to unemployment or incapacity into the dirt, and stood on them.
Am I surprised the union is fragmenting? No.
However do I think that either will function effectively independently? No.

It'll be like separating siamese twins with a machete.