[Kizzy]

That's real nice jules

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Jules2

The body dies we can all agree with that but the true essence of "us" goes on to other experiences. Karma and rebirth were taken out of the bible by those who thought they knew better. Domination was there aim, thus man hasnt always been taught these things in the Western world. If we think of it though, why should some suffer and others do not, why do the young die young? There has to be a reason.

For many, experiences of unknown quantity and orignation can confirm that yes a part of us is separate from the mortal body. Spiritual life is continuous but the body is left behind. Scientists have now opened their minds to far greater things.

We have our own truths deep inside but our trials and tribulations do make us hide. Fear often stops an unhappy wanderer, is it or isnt it, is it true nah better to stay and feel so blue.

Just have faith in yourself for within we have an enormous amount of wealth.

[Fetch The Bolt Cutters]

reincarnation sounds so much better than the heaven/hell idea like as if you would be left to suffer for all of eternity for 70 years or w/e being a ****

[Fetch The Bolt Cutters]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Summerland#Wicca >>>

[Kyle]

Kirk,

While as this thread shows we have a difference of opinion on certain philosophical aspects of our existence, I fully appreciate the time you have taken to lay out your beliefs to us all.

My last post might have looked like an attack and that is not my intention. I respect your belief and I thank you for sharing it to a group of strangers.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Kyle

Kirk,

While as this thread shows we have a difference of opinion on certain philosophical aspects of our existence, I fully appreciate the time you have taken to lay out your beliefs to us all.

My last post might have looked like an attack and that is not my intention. I respect your belief and I thank you for sharing it to a group of strangers.

Thanks Kyle.

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Jules2

The body dies we can all agree with that but the true essence of "us" goes on to other experiences. Karma and rebirth were taken out of the bible by those who thought they knew better. Domination was there aim, thus man hasnt always been taught these things in the Western world. If we think of it though, why should some suffer and others do not, why do the young die young? There has to be a reason.

For many, experiences of unknown quantity and orignation can confirm that yes a part of us is separate from the mortal body. Spiritual life is continuous but the body is left behind. Scientists have now opened their minds to far greater things.

We have our own truths deep inside but our trials and tribulations do make us hide. Fear often stops an unhappy wanderer, is it or isnt it, is it true nah better to stay and feel so blue.

Just have faith in yourself for within we have an enormous amount of wealth.

..great post Jules...I don't know that I believe everything there but I do believe that it's only a body which dies and it's not a body that has made that person who they are in life...that 'spirit' or essence, or whatever it is has to be somewhere, it's too powerful not to be...and that essence is what made that person everything they were in life...

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Jules2

The body dies we can all agree with that but the true essence of "us" goes on to other experiences. Karma and rebirth were taken out of the bible by those who thought they knew better. Domination was there aim, thus man hasnt always been taught these things in the Western world. If we think of it though, why should some suffer and others do not, why do the young die young? There has to be a reason.

For many, experiences of unknown quantity and orignation can confirm that yes a part of us is separate from the mortal body. Spiritual life is continuous but the body is left behind. Scientists have now opened their minds to far greater things.

We have our own truths deep inside but our trials and tribulations do make us hide. Fear often stops an unhappy wanderer, is it or isnt it, is it true nah better to stay and feel so blue.

Just have faith in yourself for within we have an enormous amount of wealth.

You are absolutely right Jules on a lot of these points - especially about the Bible being 'selectively edited' over the years.

[Jules2]

If we could only take our minds back to the very beginning when there wasnt any headings at all. We were possibly all of one mind believing in an energy which surrounded the universe. Then along comes so and so wanting to lead, thinking that he/she knew better, lets go this way. So we have a split, then along comes someone else taking away the togetherness of the beginning of the soul plus the division from the "whole".

The energy is forgotten as it is split into different personalities, each one claiming a part as their "God". What if man's god is an alien?

The universe is vast and tbh I cannot disagree totally with Zecharia Sitchin's theories, to me it gives rise to the acceptance of both evolution and creation. Very interesting.

On another note the works of Max Freedom Long explains the travels of the Huna tribes people who worked with the energies of the earth long before the arrival of the Nazarene, they were working miracles and could not understand why Jesus was so valued.

Jose Silva was a great life teacher, he taught that we do not use the full potential of our brain. I sat in two of his seminars and was greatly impressed with the meditation arts in fulfilling the effect. Now it is through meditation that we can reach and undestand a lot of things which we are querying, we can experience, we can find out our inner feelings and self. We can find our faith and know that there is a light at the end of the tunnel. For me it isnt religion as I do believe in that original energy, it is just life and discovering how to obtain the satisfaction of knowing.....

[Jules2]

Originally Posted by rubymoo

Yet our hearts have an electrical system, this energy could be our souls and this energy could go into the universe, this energy could manifest as our being, again nobody knows.

Once upon a time humans thought the Earth was flat, and yet we learnt that indeed it wasn't.

I think we should all keep an open mind as no-one knows for sure, i've had my fair share of experiences and i'd like to believe they are true.

Morpheus: This is your last chance. After this, there is no turning back. You take the blue pill - the story ends, you wake up in your bed and believe whatever you want to believe. You take the red pill - you stay in Wonderland and I show you how deep the rabbit-hole goes.


I like this quote, and i know it's from a movie but it indicates possibilities and potential.

No-one knows how deep the rabbit hole is and i believe science is in it's infancy, as humans we still have a lot to learn

Hi there, I believe that once we have experienced we cannot and should not deny them. Once we acknowledge we can go further if not we just put blinkers up and the experience comes to a halt. Many experience without realising especially in the dream state when we astral travel a lot. x

[Jules2]

Originally Posted by rubymoo

I have my own theory, one that i'm comfortable with, but i don't wish to share it for fear of being ridiculed.

There are many things that can't be explained, and no-one has all the answers, but all i will say is that, once when i was incredibly sad, i was transported to the stars, i was in the universe and the love that i felt was unbelievable, i thought to myself, if this is what it feels like to die, then i'm not afraid anymore, and this is from a person who has had an issue with death from age 16.

I know what i felt and i know this is where i will go when my time is up, so for me i will go on, just like Celine Dion says "My heart will go on"

I am with you Ruby, there is so much more, for me I would like to think that our purpose is to have a foot in each world, existing on the mortal plane but learning from the spiritual plane. In doing so we, with the help of like minds, could bring back peace and tranquility. It is going to take years for this to happen unless there is a sudden surge in energy which leads us all on another pathway as a "whole". Death is only a change in circumstance.

Each person has the right to their own beliefs and thoughts as we are all travelling together but on different pathways. If we believe in reincarnation then we are each within our own boundaries, noone is greater or lesser, just learning.

We have to enjoy our experiences if they are genuine but we have to be careful not to lead ourselves astray for the rewards are great and to sit amongst the stars is perfection in itself and the love is overwhelming. You must have really enjoyed that. It just goes to show that help is here when we need it and when we have the faith to realise that it can help xx

[InOne]

Not read a good old God debate on here in a while LOL. I live my life under the assumption there is no God and that works for me.

I don't think about the meaning of life to much. Might as well just get on with it.

[arista]

Originally Posted by InOne

Not read a good old God debate on here in a while LOL. I live my life under the assumption there is no God and that works for me.

I don't think about the meaning of life to much. Might as well just get on with it.

Bang On Right

[Crimson Dynamo]

20 000 children died today from disease and hunger


I wonder what was the meaning of their lives

Or indeed the 20 000 who will die tomorrow?

Maybe they needed more faith.....?

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

20 000 children died today from disease and hunger


I wonder what was the meaning of their lives

Or indeed the 20 000 who will die tomorrow?

Maybe they needed more faith.....?

I sense you're trying to make a point here but have struggled to do so.

Would you like to try again..... ?

[Jules2]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

No I'm a monotheist.

“Remember, an easy question can have an easy answer. But a hard question must have a hard answer. And for the hardest questions of all, there may be no answer - except faith.”
― Charles Sheffield, Brother to Dragons

Some people on here assert that people of 'faith' believe without any shred of credible evidence, but that is simply not true - in my case at least. For example;

I believe in the Old Testament God - Yahweh, and if I was a Jew, I would be a 'Jew for Jesus' because I also firmly believe that Jesus Christ is the Messiah. I believe that he lived, died on the cross and was resurrected.

I was not 'conditioned' into my beliefs by fanatically religious parents, nor by any absorption of religious doctrines at any of the schools I attended, and I was not exposed to any religious cult. Nor did I 'turn to God' in desperation as a result of some crisis in my life or nervous breakdown, as can happen with some people. I chose to believe.

From a young age, I was always curious about what life was all about, where did we come from, what the Cosmos really was, and a hundred other questions. As I got older, I literally, spent years seeking definitive answers to questions which I now know have no definitive answers. But, after delving (as deeply as I was intellectually able) into subjects as diverse as Agnosticism, through Christianity, Buddhism and Existentialism, to Deism, and even Ancient Astronaut theory, and after experimenting with mid-altering drugs like LSD, I 'gave up the ghost' and resorted to pure hedonism for a time.

Then, when I was in my late 20's, I witnessed something which was so unbelievable, so incredible, that I knew at that moment that there were some other laws at work in our universe besides the ones we have been taught to accept as 'natural'. I should add here, that 'no', I was not on drugs and hadn't touched LSD for years. Neither was I drunk or deluded, and also that this incident was witnessed by three other people - a young couple, who frankly 'were not the sharpest chisels in the box', knew what they'd witnessed, but seemed to merely accept it, metaphorically 'shrug' and subsequently seemed to give it no more thought. The third - a typical party loving, skirt chasing male - didn't change much publicly, but did become a regular church-goer - something I have never been drawn to because the 'Church' is man's creation and I don't believe in Man. Anyway, he spent a long time with me thereafter, privately analysing and discussing what we'd seen. Years have gone by, and he is still one of my close friends today.

At the time, I did not change much publicly either, but privately, I started to re-examine philosophy and religion.

I will state here that I do not believe without questioning. I do not question without seeking answers, and I do not blindly accept answers without further researching.

Anyway, I developed a belief in God. I haven't all the answers - if, indeed I have any - because I am mortal and ordinary, and not God, but my faith in God is built on both logic, and intuition. I cannot actually identify which God I believe in but I believe there is a God - some supernatural force, some entity - and I think of God as Yahweh, the Hebrew Old Testament God, largely because I firmly believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and the Messiah.

My belief in Jesus as the Christ is not only based on logic and intuition, but also on an acceptance that the evidence needed to justify such a belief, is both, preponderant and wholly convincing. So can I start with a case for the historical Jesus?

Can there really be any dispute that a man called Jesus Christ lived 2000 years ago? Because, in addition to all the overwhelming Biblical testimony, there is a wealth of extraneous secular evidence. There is neither space here nor need to list comprehensively, so briefly:

Flavius Josephus - a Ist Century Romano-Jewish historian widely considered to be one of the greatest and most credible historians of antiquity. Josephus did not believe that Jesus Christ was the Son of God - and therefore denied Christianity, yet in his book 'The Antiquities of the Jews' he confirms that not only did Jesus Christ exist, but also corroborates the New Testament teachings about Christ, including the fact that Christ was Crucified on the cross under the orders of Pontius Pilate:

“Now, there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man, for he was a doer of wonderful works—a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews, and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ; and when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him, for he appeared to them alive again the third day, as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him; and the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day.”

And:

“But the younger Ananus who, as we said, received the high priesthood, was of a bold disposition and exceptionally daring; he followed the party of the Sadducees, who are severe in judgment above all the Jews, as we have already shown. As therefore Ananus was of such a disposition, he thought he had now a good opportunity, as Festus was now dead, and Albinus was still on the road; so he assembled a council of judges, and brought before it the brother of Jesus the so-called Christ, whose name was James, together with some others, and having accused them as law-breakers, he delivered them over to be stoned.”

(It's very important here to bear in mind, that Josephus was not a Christian but an orthodox Jew, that his books were primarily written to recount the history of the world from a Jewish perspective for an ostensibly Roman audience, and that Christ was mentioned only incidentally and briefly in small passages which formed a very minuscule part of a huge tome.)

Tacitus - a Roman Historian 55-120AD. who - in his book the Annals - when writing of the 6 day fire which all but destroyed Rome (Nero fiddling while Rome burned) , wrote:

" Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus (meaning 'Messiah') from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular. Accordingly, an arrest was first made of all who pleaded guilty; then, upon their information, an immense multitude was convicted, not so much of the crime of firing the city, as of hatred against mankind. Mockery of every sort was added to their deaths. Covered with the skins of beasts, they were torn by dogs and perished, or were nailed to crosses, or were doomed to the flames and burnt, to serve as a nightly illumination, when daylight had expired.”

(Tacitus detested Christians but none-the-less confirms here the existence of Jesus, and His crucifixion on the cross. Further he corroborates that Pontius Pilate was the procurator who oversaw the crucifixion of Christ.)

Pliny the Younger - 61 AD – ca. 112 AD : Ancient Roman Lawyer, Magistrate and Author who is famous for a huge collection of letters which are an invaluable historical source, Pliny - accepted as honest and moderate - was relentless in pursuing Christians and in correspondence with the emperor Trajan, he asks the Emperor for instructions dealing with Christians and explained that he forced Christians to curse Christ under torture:

“They were accustomed to meet on a fixed day before dawn and sing responsively a hymn to Christ as to a god, and bound themselves to a solemn oath, not to any wicked deeds, but never to commit any fraud, theft, adultery, never to falsify their word, not to deny a trust when they should be called upon to deliver it up. When this was over, it was their custom to depart and to assemble again to partake of a meal–but ordinary and innocent food.”

Tallus -- 1st century non-Christian historian. (Quoted by Julius Africanus -- 160 – c.240) in his 'Chronicles' explains the reason for it being so dark during the day time on the day of crucifixion of Jesus Christ:

“An eclipse of the sun ’unreasonably, as it seems to me (unreasonably of course, because a solar eclipse could not take place at the time of the full moon) and it was at the season of the Paschal full moon that Christ died.....”

(As a derider of Christ, Tallus tried to come up with a 'scientific' reason for the sky inexplicably darkening at Christ's crucifixion. Of course his 'scientific' explanation is nonsense, but this not only corroborates that Christ lived and was crucified, it also corroborates the biblical claim of the sky blackening at the hour of Christ's 'death')

Lucian of Samosate -- 115 AD -- was a Greek satirist and travelling lecturer who mocked Christians in his writing, but provided evidence that Jesus really did exist in doing so
:
“He was second only to that one whom they still worship today, the man in Palestine who was crucified because he brought this new form of initiation into the world.”

Seutonius-- 69/75 -- a Roman historian and author:

"The emperor Claudius reigned 41 to 54 AD. Suetonius reports his dealings with the eastern Roman Empire, that is, with Greece and Macedonia, and with the Lycians, Rhodians, and Trojans. He then reports that the emperor expelled the Jews from Rome, since they “constantly made disturbances at the instigation of Christ”

I do not think that any rational man can dispute that a man called Jesus Christ lived and died on the cross 2000 years ago. The evidence for this is simply overwhelming.

The evidence that Jesus was the Messiah is another post.

This is my opinion and I am not trying to indoctrinate or convert anyone else.

Hi ya Kirk, it is lovely to look at different things, I fully appreciate yours. I believed totally in Jesus as a child but my views have altered as to his position in the scheme of things.

It is said that Jesus and his mother Mary attended different schools of learning, the ones which taught the mind to tune into the energies around us. For this reason and because I cannot totally accept a "God" but accept a total energy which has been fractioned by the will of man, I do not feel that the Nazerene was the only son of god. For me he was a great teacher and man could have and should have learnt by his teachings. There are many which are naturally known and which we should listen to for our own sakes for if we touch a hot surface does it not burn?

I feel for one person to supposedly take on the sins of the world is rather a selfish attitude and it lets man off to a certain extent, we should each be responsible for our own so called misdemeanours. I also find it hard that man can only get to "God" through Jesus.

There is such a lot to question in my eyes but my mind is ever open, I never ever close any doors. The fact that we can discuss and learn from each other is a fantastic way forward.

Possibly at the end of day we will find that we are all talking about the same thing but expressing it in a different way

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

I sense you're trying to make a point here but have struggled to do so.

Would you like to try again..... ?

I have every faith in your ability to dicipher my meaning brother Morsh

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

I have every faith in your ability to dicipher my meaning brother Morsh

20,000 children dying is evidence that there is no such thing as a God?

Ok, whatever you say.

[Jules2]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

20 000 children died today from disease and hunger


I wonder what was the meaning of their lives

Or indeed the 20 000 who will die tomorrow?

Maybe they needed more faith.....?

No LT this is where the theory of karma and reincarnation comes into play, if it is the spirit we are trying to build upon, then it may have been their choice to be in such a position. It is a hard thing to accept as it brings into play the old saying of "I am alright Jack". Mind you having said that I guess that many of us have had their trials and tribulations, it is just having the faith to know that we will come out of it one way or another. The acceptance of eternal spiritual life is the ultimate reward.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by Jules2

No LT this is where the theory of karma and reincarnation comes into play, if it is the spirit we are trying to build upon, then it may have been their choice to be in such a position. It is a hard thing to accept as it brings into play the old saying of "I am alright Jack". Mind you having said that I guess that many of us have had their trials and tribulations, it is just having the faith to know that we will come out of it one way or another. The acceptance of eternal spiritual life is the ultimate reward.

I have no idea what you are going on about

[Kyle]

Originally Posted by Jules2

No LT this is where the theory of karma and reincarnation comes into play, if it is the spirit we are trying to build upon, then it may have been their choice to be in such a position. It is a hard thing to accept as it brings into play the old saying of "I am alright Jack". Mind you having said that I guess that many of us have had their trials and tribulations, it is just having the faith to know that we will come out of it one way or another. The acceptance of eternal spiritual life is the ultimate reward.

Did you just claim that the people who die of disease and starvation chose to put themselves in that position in a past life?

This is where belief becomes a bit dangerous in my eyes, when we start writing off atrocities as 'meant to be'.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

20,000 children dying is evidence that there is no such thing as a God?

Ok, whatever you say.

What baffles me is; that whenever there's a tragedy in life, some people seize upon it to either blame God, or to proffer it as evidence that there is no God.

They're not really knocking men of faith by doing so, although that's the intention. because anyone who believes in a God also accepts there's a Devil (for want of a better word). All I say is why blame God? Why not blame the Devil.

In fact, as these 'men of science' only believe in the Laws of Nature, why aren't they all cursing and shaking fists at Mother Nature?

[Kyle]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

What baffles me is; that whenever there's a tragedy in life, some people seize upon it to either blame God, or to proffer it as evidence that there is no God.

They're not really knocking men of faith by doing so, although that's the intention. because anyone who believes in a God also accepts there's a Devil (for want of a better word). All I say is why blame God? Why not blame the Devil.

In fact, as these 'men of science' only believe in the Laws of Nature, why aren't they all cursing and shaking fists at Mother Nature?

Because nobody is claiming that nature is omnipotent, omnibenevolant and omniscient.

Blaming the devil for pestilence and disease is pretty hilarious tbh. Blaming a woman for listening to a talking snake for all mankind's woe's today is like something out of a fantasy book.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

What baffles me is; that whenever there's a tragedy in life, some people seize upon it to either blame God, or to proffer it as evidence that there is no God.

They're not really knocking men of faith by doing so, although that's the intention. because anyone who believes in a God also accepts there's a Devil (for want of a better word). All I say is why blame God? Why not blame the Devil.

In fact, as these 'men of science' only believe in the Laws of Nature, why aren't they all cursing and shaking fists at Mother Nature?

"that whenever there's a tragedy in life"

20, 000 die every day 365 days of the year


Jesus Christ on a Bike.


oh and mother nature also does not exist

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by InOne

Not read a good old God debate on here in a while LOL. I live my life under the assumption there is no God and that works for me.

I don't think about the meaning of life to much. Might as well just get on with it.

....good times eh, Joe...