[Jules2]

Originally Posted by Kyle

Did you just claim that the people who die of disease and starvation chose to put themselves in that position in a past life?

This is where belief becomes a bit dangerous in my eyes, when we start writing off atrocities as 'meant to be'.

No I never claim anything tbh as we do not know but if we look into different thoughts and views this is just a theory of many. How do we explain it all though, why should some suffer and others do not? As I have said my mind is ever open, I do not come down on any one theory but consider all, looking for the logic of the whys and wherefores. It is such an interesting subject but I doubt whether we will truly know the answers. It is only one answer amongst many.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by Jules2

not sure if anyone is serious or not here now, I was quite enjoying the difference of opinions but it is a lot to go into tbh. My explanation is only one amongst many but it may explain why some suffer and others do not. I tend to look upon the spiritual side as the true essence of life.

What do you mean by spiritual

?

[Jules2]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

What do you mean by spiritual

?

I believe that we are all spiritual beings held down on this planet by a vehicle which we term our body. We are basically free. If we can sit outside of all the troubles and strife we can be of assistance in the healing of the planet and each other. If we allow ourselves to go into the trouble then we are held down by the negativity of all things. It is a hard thing to do though tbh as the overall suffering is great.

There is a theory that it is the planet itself which we are meant to uplift but we have to get rid of all the dross which is holding it down and not allowing it to take its rightful place in the universe.

Once again I am only really generalising as we do not really know. We only know how we feel inside.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Kyle

Because nobody is claiming that nature is omnipotent, omnibenevolant and omniscient.

Blaming the devil for pestilence and disease is pretty hilarious tbh. Blaming a woman for listening to a talking snake for all mankind's woe's today is like something out of a fantasy book.

I've already stated that I don't know all the answers Kyle, and I'm not an orthodox Christian, nor a Bible Basher, but I'm pretty sure that not every word in the Bible is meant to be taken literally - despite what some more 'devout' religious extremists might claim.

I believe that the Genesis story of Adam and Eve is just a beautiful allegory. What hidden messages are in this allegory? I don't know. I have my own personal theory of just what The Garden of Eden and The Tree of The Knowledge of Good And Evil was, just as I have my own personal theory on The Tower of Babel, 'Noah's Ark, and The Ark of The Covenant, and here, my beliefs cross over from strict Biblical adherence, to elements of other religions and philosophies. There simply is not the space nor time here to expound on such a vast and complex array of subjects.

As far as the Devil goes, I'm afraid it's impossible to even mention the concept of Evil as a genuine force by using the popular name for its 'fountain-head', without instantly devaluing the validity of that concept, because of the ridiculous imagery of 'horned' entities with tridents and all the other 'learnt' medieval clap trap associated with it via popular culture -- none more so than the Devil portrayed as a serpent.

Yet, real, pure Evil does exist. And I am simply maintaining that to someone who believes in a supernatural force viz. God, then it is illogical to attribute acts of murder etc. to that force when there is a very real force at work called Evil.

In the case of natural disasters, I stand by my statement that it is totally illogical for some men (and I did not say all men) who cling to the tenet that there is nothing which exists but the Laws of Nature, to then blame a supernatural force viz God, as either the Cause of a natural disaster, or to blame God for allowing a natural disaster to happen.

In answer to God being omnipotent, omnibenevolant and omniscient but doing nothing, I've already said that I don't have all the answers- I know that there is in the Bible scripture an explanation for this, and I think it's in Luke, but as I've also said, I'm not a Bible Basher so I can't remember.

In my opinion, the Creation story in Genesis is also allegorical, but it could be factual and still not conflict with science. Just for example, accept the premise that there is a God, a supreme being, no matter how you envisage him, isn't it arrogant to assume that an eternal force measures time at all, let alone in days of the week. Isn't the Creation story early man's attempts to explain the creation of the cosmos and life in language that is universally understood by other men? --

-- Imagine, you could communicate with an adult Mayfly, and he was your pet. He says to you; "I'm dying of thirst". You say; "I'll nip to the shop and get you some Mayfly Pop, I'll not be long.". Off you toddle to the shop and return in 30 minutes, the chance is your pet is dead - not through thirst, but extreme old age, because an adult Mayfly's entire lifespan can be as short as 30 minutes. What was an eternity for him was but a very brief time to you.

Isn't it feasible to those who say God doesn't exist or that he is an 'absentee landlord' that we just cannot comprehend what eternal really means, and our entire history could be nothing more than a nano second to a supreme being?

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Jules2

not sure if anyone is serious or not here now, I was quite enjoying the difference of opinions but it is a lot to go into tbh. My explanation is only one amongst many but it may explain why some suffer and others do not. I tend to look upon the spiritual side as the true essence of life.

I'm always serious on serious subjects Jules, and I've enjoyed reading your posts. I am aware of Astral Travelling, Reincarnation and other elements you have touched on, am interested in them, and urge you to keep posting.

I've learnt new things on here from other forum members and have followed them up, then researched even more. It's even changed my mind about some things - not my faith - but subjects such as poor little Maddie Mcann's disappearance.

Keep posting Jules.

[Kizzy]

I'm loving the Sitchin reference, been watching BBC4 and the ancient civilisation series all across the globe they focused on the moon and the sun to be worshiped rather than named deities, that sits well with me.
The addition of winged beings cannot be denied though and this was also a worldwide phenomenon... this has never been fully explained in any great detail and I feel that there is more to some aspects of the bible 'the watchers' for instance.
It sounds a bit x files but I have to say it would make sense that the ancient peoples had help in forming what look like huge watchtowers.

[rubymoo]

Originally Posted by Jules2

not sure if anyone is serious or not here now, I was quite enjoying the difference of opinions but it is a lot to go into tbh. My explanation is only one amongst many but it may explain why some suffer and others do not. I tend to look upon the spiritual side as the true essence of life.

I've been serious in my posts Jules, and i think we may think along the same lines i believe there is an answer to all the suffering and it is indeed about humanity and spiritual growth, i know why my life has been, and is the way it is because of my past life, i was walking my dogs and was asking the universe "why is my life like this?" (i'd been asking that question a lot!) and i then received what i can only describe as an instant download, i was having a conversation with my spirit family and i knew how i'd been in a past life, so i wanted to experience my selfish past in this life, and do you know what....it made sense, i understand why my life is like this and the revelation helped me to love my dad unconditionally (my dad can only be described as a b*****d) but that doesn't matter, because i understand it was for spiritual growth, i know some posters are going to think this is a load of s**t, but i know the truth......my truth.

[Jules2]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

I'm always serious on serious subjects Jules, and I've enjoyed reading your posts. I am aware of Astral Travelling, Reincarnation and other elements you have touched on, am interested in them, and urge you to keep posting.

I've learnt new things on here from other forum members and have followed them up, then researched even more. It's even changed my mind about some things - not my faith - but subjects such as poor little Maddie Mcann's disappearance.

Keep posting Jules.

Aw thanks Kirk, I love a serious but lighthearted debate. I say lighthearted because we all have our own views and it is to easy to offend another.

With the Astral Travelling it is possible to go back into the past, indeed I had one beautiful experience where I came back with the possible understanding that the past, present and future are all one, we are just existing on a dimensional field.

With my own views I tend to give a little and take in the response as they can be very controversial and I think that a lot of people are afraid to say exactly how they are feeling for fear of being ridiculed.

[Jules2]

Originally Posted by rubymoo

I've been serious in my posts Jules, and i think we may think along the same lines i believe there is an answer to all the suffering and it is indeed about humanity and spiritual growth, i know why my life has been, and is the way it is because of my past life, i was walking my dogs and was asking the universe "why is my life like this?" (i'd been asking that question a lot!) and i then received what i can only describe as an instant download, i was having a conversation with my spirit family and i knew how i'd been in a past life, so i wanted to experience my selfish past in this life, and do you know what....it made sense, i understand why my life is like this and the revelation helped me to love my dad unconditionally (my dad can only be described as a b*****d) but that doesn't matter, because i understand it was for spiritual growth, i know some posters are going to think this is a load of s**t, but i know the truth......my truth.

Ah Ruby I know you are serious, I said as much to two of your posts. We are on the same wavelength, this is the beauty of debate, we learn from one another as Kirk said.

I used to be well into meditation, at the moment I am a bit grounded because of family illnesses. I used to go pretty deep and followed Jose Silvas theories of levelling up the brain. One time I came back with an answer, I had asked to be taken to the centre of Truth I was given:-

T. R. U. T. H. Now as we can see the centre is U, you are the truth, we are all our own truths. Logical eh!! It made me understand that we have the answers within, we only have to seek to find and to our own selves be kind.

Another one is Church, the centre is U R we have our own answers. We can listen to others but we still have to work it out for ourselves as you have done. Take care love.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Jules2

Ah Ruby I know you are serious, I said as much to two of your posts. We are on the same wavelength, this is the beauty of debate, we learn from one another as Kirk said.

I used to be well into meditation, at the moment I am a bit grounded because of family illnesses. I used to go pretty deep and followed Jose Silvas theories of levelling up the brain. One time I came back with an answer, I had asked to be taken to the centre of Truth I was given:-

T. R. U. T. H. Now as we can see the centre is U, you are the truth, we are all our own truths. Logical eh!! It made me understand that we have the answers within, we only have to seek to find and to our own selves be kind.

Another one is Church, the centre is U R we have our own answers. We can listen to others but we still have to work it out for ourselves as you have done. Take care love.

You've just done a Gary Busey there Jules.

[Jules2]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

I'm loving the Sitchin reference, been watching BBC4 and the ancient civilisation series all across the globe they focused on the moon and the sun to be worshiped rather than named deities, that sits well with me.
The addition of winged beings cannot be denied though and this was also a worldwide phenomenon... this has never been fully explained in any great detail and I feel that there is more to some aspects of the bible 'the watchers' for instance.
It sounds a bit x files but I have to say it would make sense that the ancient peoples had help in forming what look like huge watchtowers.

Hi Kizzy, have you read Sitchin's books at all? I am interested in the theory that aliens had a hand in producing the human race. It is a long old story but it covers the lost link. To me it also makes sense that in the beginning there was evolution through the big bang or whatever but then along came creation as man was formed through the presence of these beings. The two things which have caused so many debates.

Such a lot of theories eh!! The trouble is many believe each theory so nothing can really be denied if one has an open mind. The mind is like a computer, we are able to store things in different compartments and then call upon them when we need to.

[Jules2]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

You've just done a Gary Busey there Jules.

I know Kirk, there is quite a lot we can look into, I was very impressed with his isms.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Jules2

Hi Kizzy, have you read Sitchin's books at all? I am interested in the theory that aliens had a hand in producing the human race. It is a long old story but it covers the lost link. To me it also makes sense that in the beginning there was evolution through the big bang or whatever but then along came creation as man was formed through the presence of these beings. The two things which have caused so many debates.

Such a lot of theories eh!! The trouble is many believe each theory so nothing can really be denied if one has an open mind. The mind is like a computer, we are able to store things in different compartments and then call upon them when we need to.

Yes, I have Genesis Revisited and another which I lent to my brother and he hasn't yet returned ... mmm, just remembered that haha.
I'm not a creationist by any stretch of the imagination, having said that there are too many ancient coincidences across the globe and hopefully the puzzle pieces will one day fit and reveal how we all came to be.
One theory of mine is there are different 'species' of human, some very tall some tiny, and it's these primeval differences that keep us warring.
Let's just hope that 'Eureka!' moment comes soon and we can all recognise and celebrate our differences as well as our shared past and live peacefully.

[Rob!]

Simple fact of the matter is that we won't know until our current life is over. Or maybe we won't and our lives will simply start again. Personally I'd rather that. I hate the idea that once we're gone, we just cease to exist. Somehow, be it science or through some other celestial being, life was created to the level it is today.
Yeah, we learn..but why? We only learn what we subconsciously believe to be worth holding on to.

[Jules2]

For myself I find that I need to look at a greater story, if we think about it all words are man made, please question me if you feel I am wrong. Bearing this in mind we can see where the divisions come into play.

We talk about faith, what is faith, to some it is dogmatic religion, but that is still the words of other people? As I consider the spiritual (spirit) the real member of the cast, anything which uplifts is ok. I am all for the positive side of life but because I live on the mortal coil I feel we have to look into the whys and wherefores of how people are misled into believing that theirs is the only way. Have they been milked into that thought, can we/they begin to think for ourselves/themselves? Why do many fight and kill.

It is said that in the beginning there was the word, what was the word? What is the meaning of that word? Indeed do we know, have we been told?

Now faith is a great word, it can uplift the inner self but it also can be the use of many things. If we have faith in a supposed "god" other than the one who says "thou shalt have no other "god" than me", if that faith uplifts the soul then to me it is a good thing for it allows progression.

Take an illness, faith...it will get better.....now with this attitude there is every reason to think that it will uplift. It gives us the faith to go on and to be able to accept the final outcome. If someone decries that faith then we go down, thus introducing negative thoughts into our being and allowing depression to take hold. Not good for there is only one way...down...it is then hard to go up. Although it is said that when we go down we go up further but positive thought is the greater thing.

We know that we should never decry anyones faith no matter what that faith is because for me, it is the spiritual aspect which is the main thing.

Faith is a great word:- For All Individuals To Heal:

From the depth of darkness there shone a light,
A tiny spark but oh so bright.
The darkness changed itself to day,
The light had come to show the way.

xx

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by Rob!

Simple fact of the matter is that we won't know until our current life is over. Or maybe we won't and our lives will simply start again. Personally I'd rather that. I hate the idea that once we're gone, we just cease to exist. Somehow, be it science or through some other celestial being, life was created to the level it is today.
Yeah, we learn..but why? We only learn what we subconsciously believe to be worth holding on to.

but you are perfectly happy that before you were born there was 13 billion years of nothing, of non-existence?

[Creggle]

There is no god, only mankind and the choices it makes.

[Jules2]

Originally Posted by Creggle

There is no god, only mankind and the choices it makes.

Possibly the original energy was taken and split into fractions because of man. The energy outside of all things is still with us if we stand outside of the negativity.

[arista]

Originally Posted by Creggle

There is no god, only mankind and the choices it makes.

Bang On Right

[Jules2]

Originally Posted by Creggle

There is no god, only mankind and the choices it makes.

Do you believe in an afterlife though Creggle?

[Jules2]

Originally Posted by Kyle

I don't have a salad Jules I'm more of a carnivore

But I'll give you a word burger.

I have no reason to believe in a God/Gods. I don't believe in anything. Until there is a scientific consensus that we came about as a result of intelligent design from a creator who basically can't be arsed with us anymore then I'm afraid I am going to have to put my trust that humanity's greatest minds will push the boundaries of science in search of our answers, as they always do. This is our greatest hour.

No agenda, no dogma, no confirmation bias, no control, no self-appointed hierarchy of order. Just the simple search for truth.

So therefore you have an open mind? This is what I think tbh, I love putting theories forward though for anyone to mull over. I am not bogged down at all. I do believe though that science and the ever powers of life are more in tune these days than in others. Thanks for replying. Hey I am not keen on burgers neither....

[Kyle]

Originally Posted by Jules2

So therefore you have an open mind? This is what I think tbh, I love putting theories forward though for anyone to mull over. I am not bogged down at all. I do believe though that science and the ever powers of life are more in tune these days than in others. Thanks for replying. Hey I am not keen on burgers neither....

No worries Jules. It's certainly an interesting topic nonetheless. There is so much out there yet to be discovered.

I'm interested in the idea of panspermia in particular now. I was listening to an astronomy podcast the other day and they were talking about bacteria that could survive the vacuum of space and what if it was a meteor that struck the earth all those years ago and 'seeded' the planet with biological material.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Kyle

I don't have a salad Jules I'm more of a carnivore

But I'll give you a word burger.

I have no reason to believe in a God/Gods. I don't believe in anything. Until there is a scientific consensus that we came about as a result of intelligent design from a creator who basically can't be arsed with us anymore then I'm afraid I am going to have to put my trust that humanity's greatest minds will push the boundaries of science in search of our answers, as they always do. This is our greatest hour.

No agenda, no dogma, no confirmation bias, no control, no self-appointed hierarchy of order. Just the simple search for truth.

A good post Kyle with valid points and I'm glad you still have an 'open' mind even though you are firm in your beliefs. Like Jules, I'm looking forward to intelligent, adult, and cordial debates. I enjoy (cyber?) talking to people no matter if their beliefs are diametrically opposed to mine, as long as it's civil discussion. I'm not to old to learn from others, and hope the opposite is true.

[Kyle]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

A good post Kyle with valid points and I'm glad you still have an 'open' mind even though you are firm in your beliefs. Like Jules, I'm looking forward to intelligent, adult, and cordial debates. I enjoy (cyber?) talking to people no matter if their beliefs are diametrically opposed to mine, as long as it's civil discussion. I'm not to old to learn from others, and hope the opposite is true.

If we are staunch and stubborn in our beliefs and not open to other ideas if they work for us then we are as good as dead in my eyes.

[Jules2]

Originally Posted by Kyle

No worries Jules. It's certainly an interesting topic nonetheless. There is so much out there yet to be discovered.

I'm interested in the idea of panspermia in particular now. I was listening to an astronomy podcast the other day and they were talking about bacteria that could survive the vacuum of space and what if it was a meteor that struck the earth all those years ago and 'seeded' the planet with biological material.

Ah Kyle to me that is a very plausible thought one which I have been very interested in. I have written about different theories, ones which have popped into my mind and which I have taken great pleasure in putting on paper. I just love theorising.