[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Mazz01

She was Not smothered there was no signs of any struggle where is your actual proof of this? it certainly was Not in the official autopsy report... where are you getting your information from and please don't mention the murder theory books, you are better off putting those books in the trash IMH.

That man was not telling the truth, there was no actual evidence of any tapes being shown on that program? why would you believe someone that had said that by hear say...speculation...and lies? why would you believe that person without hearing the actual real tapes that doesn't make any sense.

Listen to yourself! You are guilty of the same practices which you are critising others on here for.

Why do you believe that there were no tapes? The tapes did exist - numerous credible witnesses heard them, and if they never existed, then why were they seized by the Secret service and why did Otash lodge a law suite in 1966 to have them returned?

What are your sources for stating your theories with such conviction? Or should I be asking where do you keep your Time machine?

I personally welcome any debate on here but please don't attempt to belittle other people because they don't agree with you, and please don't respond to a post by merely ridiculing that post and reiterating your own viewpoints without also answering the original points with valid counterpoints supported by rational reasons for those counterpoints.

[Mazz01]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

Listen to yourself! You are guilty of the same practices which you are critising other on here for.

Why do you believe that there were no tapes? The tapes did exist - numerous credible witnesses heard them, and if they never existed, then why were they seized by the Secret service and why did Otash lodge a law suite in 1966 to have them returned?

What are your sources for stating your theories with such conviction? Or should I be asking where do you keep your Time machine?

I personally welcome any debate on here but please don't attempt to belittle other people because they don't agree with you, and please don't respond to a post by merely ridiculing that post and reiterating your own viewpoints without also answering the original points with valid counterpoints supported by rational reasons for those counterpoints.

Hmm i wasn't trying to belittle anyone it's how i come across when i write on these type of forums, i have not said anything to insult anyone i'm not sure why you are getting so defensive? i made my points but you seem to have taken it out of context has me trying to say that i'm right and everyone is wrong, No that is not what i was doing...i just wanted to know why people are so easily swayed with believing these FACTS that do not show any real evidence to the contrary? you say that there were actual tapes of Marilyn's house being bugged so where are these tapes now... and who are these people saying that they had actually heard them, it seems odd that anyone can make these claims without showing any real evidence to back up their claims, and why would you believe those people if you had not heard the evidence for yourself?

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

And what a 'police report' - Jack Clemmons a 15 year LA Police Veteran, who is the first officer on the scene, sees through the B.S staged death scene, notes rigor mortis in the corpse, detects Housekeeper Eunice Murray's 'vagueness and evasiveness, and perceives how overly desperate Marilyn's psychiatrist Ralph Greenson was to convince him that Marilyn committed suicide by swallowing the contents of all the empty pill bottles so conveniently arranged on her bedside table - complete with their caps all neatly screwed back on. Clemmons does not buy into this 'suicide' and declares that Marilyn was murdered. Within one hour Clemmons is replaced by Det Sgt Sergeant Marvin Iannone Bobby Kennedy's own personal 'dirty Tricks' cop and the very cop who'd been at the house earlier.

Clemmons views were 'dismissed' as was the evidence of Marilyn's neighbour along with other witness evidence not favourable to the 'official' sanitised Kennedy-friendly version of events.

As to the glass on the floor which 'turned up' on later photographs, the original officers on the scene swear it was not there when they inspected Marilyn's bedroom upon their arrival. That's a big a mystery as the blood smears on the bedroom wall seen in early police photographs but which magically have disappeared in later versions, and Eunice Murrays changing testimony - among other 'mysteries'.

Lets see, you must of read several murder theories provided by Clemmons who had actually changed his official eye witness statement on that death report? see i think it's very important to not get wrapped up in all these conspiracy books and read from the official police report stated in 1962, where do you see any of Clemmons evidence suggesting Marilyn's body had been moved and a missing glass or Mrs Murray washing bed sheets in that 1962 report? all these details had suddenly changed in a book written by murder theorist Robert Slatzer in the 1970's when he had contacted Clemmons, Slatzer who is a notorious liar a man who confessed that he was once married to Marilyn in 1952, this was certainly Not true which had been debunked by many of Marilyn's close friends?

I really think you have been HAD on why Clemmons had changed his official police testimony, this officer had actually been fired from the Police department on grounds of ill practices that went against all police rules, he then decides to give a tell all story to Robert Slatzer about missing evidence of Marilyn's body being moved and the mysterious bed sheets being washed? and all this right in front of other police officers at the scene who had Not even witness any of this going on?...i mean come on!!! it's all lies i'm afraid.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Mazz01

Hmm i wasn't trying to belittle anyone it's how i come across when i write on these type of forums, i have not said anything to insult anyone i'm not sure why you are getting so defensive? i made my points but you seem to have taken it out of context has me trying to say that i'm right and everyone is wrong, No that is not what i was doing...i just wanted to know why people are so easily swayed with believing these FACTS that do not show any real evidence to the contrary? you say that there were actual tapes of Marilyn's house being bugged so where are these tapes now... and who are these people saying that they had actually heard them, it seems odd that anyone can make these claims without showing any real evidence to back up their claims, and why would you believe those people if you had not heard the evidence for yourself?

There were several witnesses who had heard these tapes on the Channel 5 documentary which you purport to have studied. How did you miss them? Ray Strait listened to over 11 hours of these tapes.

Fred Otash secreted the tapes but upon his death the Secret Service stripped all three properties which Otash owned and the tapes - along with other documents - disappeared never to be seen again. At the same time, a filing cabinet containing Otash's most sensitive material was taken from his apartment by his lawyer and the contents of that too was never seen again.

The evidence from varied sources that these tapes existed is compelling, which is one of the reasons why I personally believe that they existed. Fred Otash's 1966 law suite to have them returned is conclusive proof.

Because they existed, and because there is also compelling evidence that Otash did bug Marilyn's house (as he bugged Rock Hudson's and others) and because the witnesses who claim to have heard the tapes come across as honest and very credible, and because their links to Otash and Marilyn are proven, then I also believe what they say regarding the contents of the tapes.

Again Mazz - what source do you rely on for you not to believe all this very credible evidence and testimony?

[Mazz01]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

There were several witnesses who had heard these tapes on the Channel 5 documentary which you purport to have studied. How did you miss them? Ray Strait listened to over 11 hours of these tapes.

Fred Otash secreted the tapes but upon his death the Secret Service stripped all three properties which Otash owned and the tapes - along with other documents - disappeared never to be seen again. At the same time, a filing cabinet containing Otash's most sensitive material was taken from his apartment by his lawyer and the contents of that too was never seen again.

I'm not trying to cause any bad feelings but again why are you believing these people'' why has there not been any official report to back Otash claims of these tapes i'm sure he has also made alot of money from his stories, Marilyn had lived in her house for nearly six months how did these people gain access to her property how was that possible? how would they had carried out their bugging devices in the house because Marilyn had never left that house unattended for long when she went out to the film studio, seems odd that this had all happened under Marilyn's nose without any suspicion going on?

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

The evidence from varied sources that these tapes existed is compelling, which is one of the reasons why I personally believe that they existed. Fred Otash's 1966 law suite to have them returned is conclusive proof.

Because they existed, and because there is also compelling evidence that Otash did bug Marilyn's house (as he bugged Rock Hudson's and others) and because the witnesses who claim to have heard the tapes come across as honest and very credible, and because their links to Otash and Marilyn are proven, then I also believe what they say regarding the contents of the tapes.

Again Mazz - what source do you rely on for you not to believe all this very credible evidence and testimony?

You keep saying these tapes existed but you have never seen them or even listened to them...? seems strange that you would believe such claims, i was hoping that the channel 5 program might of had some real actual evidence to prove that these theories were actually true, but that program set out to make people believe what they had found was going to be explosive, but sadly they couldn't show the tapes because they did Not even exist?