[Novo]

She is still alive hiding out in Costa Rica

[Mazz01]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear, where do we begin? Although the only logical conclusion that any rational, impartial person who researches Marilyn’s death can come to is murder, the enormity of such research in having to sift through all the sheer wealth of documentation concerning her last hours, in order to separate lie from fact, is not a task to be entered into lightly.

I am lucky, in that I have long been convinced that Marilyn was murdered and have therefore already read and researched a lot of the many books (own several) and articles concerning her death. Much of what I have learnt and suspected has been confirmed by the excellent recent Channel 5 documentary ‘Conspiracy; The Missing Evidence’ referred to by Who Is She – but more than just confirming, this documentary does, indeed, fill in the missing pieces with new evidence.

Haha that rumour has actually been debunked by James Hall the ambulance driver who's work colleague had since said that Mr Hall had lied about the whole incident, there was no injection by Dr Greenson and they were certainly Not at Marilyn's that evening?

I think it's maybe you that's being seduced by these scandalous murder theory books done by Slatzer and Donald Wolfe... you really need to put those books down.

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

I think it’s important for anyone who has been seduced by the official propaganda and is therefore of the mindset that the Kennedy’s were honourable politicians and men who were above such ‘preposterous’ allegations, to research this clan – starting with the Patriarch Joe Kennedy.

If you do, you will learn not only discover that all the Kennedy's were sexual predators who make Bill Clinton look like a Trappist Monk by comparison, but you will also learn how Joe Kennedy acquired his millions through bootlegging, how he covertly used his money and connections with mobsters, celebrities, and the CIA and FBI, to get his sons elected to power - making many promises to them in return, only for him to ‘betray’ these people once his sons were duly elected. This trait of using people and then ditching them was continued by John, Bobby and Edward Kennedy, and was at the root of JFK and Bobby’s assassination.

During such research, you will discover the many ‘victims’ of the Kennedy’s duplicity, including, Cuban exiles who were promised that if they would invade Cuba and re-take it from Fidel Castro, the USA would give them ‘air support’ in the first instance and other support from there. This led to the ‘Bay of Pigs’ fiasco where the gullible exiles were betrayed with no such support.

The ousting of Castro was also one of the many clandestine promises made by the Kennedy’s to Joe Kennedy’s mobster pals because when Castro came to power, he booted the mafia off the island, seized their assets and closed all the casinos – the source of billions in mob revenue, and the mob were keen to reestablish themselves in a newly 'liberated' and 'liberal' Cuba .

Various covert inducements were also made to the mob in return for their ‘teamster votes’ to get his sons elected – one of which was that if Bobby was elected to Attorney General he would – naturally – implement ’soft policies’ on mob criminal activities. Once elected however, Bobby went after the mob with a vengeance. It may make you question why Jimmy Hoffa boss of the teamsters union subsequently suddenly 'disappeared'.

Among the many ‘powerful’ and 'persuasive' celebrities who were ‘courted’ by the Kennedy’s and used by them to get elected and re-elected, only to be ditched, were Peter Lawford and Frank Sinatra. Frank was utterly inconsolable when his ‘close friend’ JFK distanced himself from him once Frank’s usefulness to JFK was overshadowed by his growing infamy because of his association with mobster boss Sam Giancana (Frank co-owned the Cal Neva Lodge with Giancana) but – unlike Lawford, who was Kennedy’s brother-in-law – Frank never publicly ‘turned’ on the Kennedy’s or publicly revealed what he knew about their shady practices (though he revealed plenty 'off the record'). Does this 'using and subsequent 'betrayal by ditching' pattern remind you of JFK and Bobby's callous treatment of Marilyn? All will be made clear later.

Add to all this Senator Edward Kennedy - another corrupt, womanising, drunkard hypocrite Kennedy, one, who (like brother Bobby) used his power and connections to, quite literally, ‘get away with murder.

On July 18, 1969, Edward Kennedy was driving back from a party with pretty, 28 year old Campaign Worker Mary Jo Kapechne in his car, when his car plunged off the Chappaquidick bridge into a body of deep water. Coward Kennedy saved himself and swam ashore leaving Kapechne trapped in the back seats. He didn’t report the incident for a full nine hours by which time Mary Jo was found dead by rescuers. What’s utterly shocking is that Mary Jo had survived for several hours after the plunge – having been kept alive by an air pocket within the car. Divers maintained that had Kennedy reported the incident straight away, they would have definitely found Mary Jo alive. Subsequent Medical evidence substantiated this. It was alleged that Mary Jo was being 'used' by Kennedy for sex a la JFK and Bobby with Marilyn, but he not surprisingly denied this. He also denied being drunk, but nine hours gave him plenty of time to sober up, clean his dick, and make sufficient telephone calls to all the right people in order to best extricate himself from this 'career' and liberty threatening situation. (Remind you of Bobby Kennedy and Greenson's 5 hour delay reporting Marilyn's death to the police? It will become clear later.)

Instead of being charged with homicide, Kennedy used his power and connections to have the charge kept to 'Leaving the scene of an accident’ and was given a mere two-year suspended sentence and had his driving licence suspended for a year, although - thankfully - this did all but end his aspirations to follow his brother into the Oval Office.

Read up on this hateful clan of hypocrites, then decide for yourselves if this ‘stock’ was more than capable of having murder committed in order to preserve their status.

I am posting a detailed summary of the case for Marilyn's murder shortly.

As i have noted from your post you go with the Kennedy's murder theory but please explain how exactly did they kill her? yes the police records were confiscated for the simple reason that Marilyn was having an affair with JFK...yes that part is true and lets Not forget all the other woman who had been secretly involved with him, and some even go on record stating they had actually got pregnant by the President - Judith Exner for one, and he also had an affair with his private secretary Mimi Alford and probably many many more...had these woman also been murdered by the Kennedy's i think Not...so what was so special about Marilyn's relationship?

It only makes sense that the CIA wanted to keep that under control....why does this point toward murder?
Anyhow, how do you think the Kennedy's physically killed her? With Nembutal? Doubtful. The conspiracy theories have GOT TO GO.


For all of you that believe Marilyn was somehow 'murdered'...what about Marilyn's history of overdoses and drug abuse, hospitalization and depression? is that being pushed aside and denied in favor of some slanderous theory? Marilyn overdosed several times and was saved each time by either Arthur Miller or Paula Strasberg....The last two years of Marilyn's life showed major depression, serious drug issues and detoxes, in and out of hospitals....She nearly overdosed TWICE in the last few weeks before her actual death! Magazines of that time predicted her actual suicide!! Yes, that is true!!! (I have many vintage magazines). Now, those are the facts....conspiracy theories have no proof at all. Where is the actual proof?
.

The one thing that nobody from the conspiracy camp can seem to tell me is HOW did the Kennedy's actually kill Marilyn?
She died from a drug over dose...is this the normal way to kill somebody? I have heard stuff like "she was forced to take the pills"...how by being hypnotized by a swinging pendulum....i mean, come on!!!


There is NO evidence Marilyn was murdered. Absolutely none. Zippo. It is very misleading to claim that there is actual proof. There are 'mystery sources', like secret bugs in Marilyn's house - again where are these secret tapes...hear-say, rumours and speculation....none of it amounts to PROOF. If there was they would have proven it a long time ago.

[Marsh.]

I have a friend who was there the night she died and is making a film based around the events that lead to her murder.

True dat.

[Cal.]

Marilyn was different from the others as she was threatening to expose the Kennedys, and apparently had a journal logging everything about her respective affairs with each of them.

[Mazz01]

Originally Posted by Who Is She?

Marilyn was different from the others as she was threatening to expose the Kennedys, and apparently had a journal logging everything about her respective affairs with each of them.

Ok then explain why Judith Exner or Mimi Alford was able to do the same thing while they had both been having affairs at the same time as Marilyn, they had also knew about secret information about the Cuban missile crisis amongst other private things, the Kennedy's were simply reckless men and really didn't care about these woman who might of known those things, they were certainly Not worried about any of these woman going public or exposing the Kennedy family... could you imagine how that would of wrecked Marilyn public image? Judith was actually pregnant by JFK late 1962 so why wasn't she disposed by him or Bobby...? it just seems odd that everyone assume's that Marilyn's relationship was more special...it really wasn't as i have said these woman that JKF or bobby were involved with knew exactly what Marilyn had known so what?

[Mazz01]

Originally Posted by Who Is She?

Marilyn was different from the others as she was threatening to expose the Kennedys, and apparently had a journal logging everything about her respective affairs with each of them.

The one thing that nobody from the conspiracy camp can seem to tell me is HOW did the Kennedy's actually kill Marilyn?
how did they make Marilyn take those pills without being forced to do it.

She died from a drugover dose...is this the normal way to kill somebody? if i was one of the Kennedy brother's
i would of come up with a better murder plan then a bottle of pills...not the usual way to have someone killed is it?

[Cal.]

She was sedated and then smothered. In the Channel 5 documentary, a man who had heard the tapes from Marilyn's house (the FBI had the whole place rigged up with audio recording devices) heard Robert Kennedy and two other men arrive at Marilyn's home. This is backed up from neighbours who were having a gathering at home, who had seen Robert Kennedy and Entourage arrive at the house. Robert came to confront Marilyn a final time over her repeated threats that she was going to expose the Kennedys. The documentary also said JFK was at the home, and was heard saying 'Give her something to calm her down' when Marilyn was screaming '**** you! I'm Marilyn Monroe!'. This implies Marilyn was sedated by the men, and then according to the man in the documentary who heard the tapes, it was implied that Robert Kennedy proceeded to smother her to death. Then followed the cover up: Marilyn's body being placed in the unusual position it was found in, the bottle of empty pills conveniently nearby, and the whole room looking very tidy: fresh linen was even on the bed.

[Mazz01]

Originally Posted by Who Is She?

She was sedated and then smothered. In the Channel 5 documentary, a man who had heard the tapes from Marilyn's house (the FBI had the whole place rigged up with audio recording devices) heard Robert Kennedy and two other men arrive at Marilyn's home. This is backed up from neighbours who were having a gathering at home, who had seen Robert Kennedy and Entourage arrive at the house. Robert came to confront Marilyn a final time over her repeated threats that she was going to expose the Kennedys. The documentary also said JFK was at the home, and was heard saying 'Give her something to calm her down' when Marilyn was screaming '**** you! I'm Marilyn Monroe!'. This implies Marilyn was sedated by the men, and then according to the man in the documentary who heard the tapes, it was implied that Robert Kennedy proceeded to smother her to death. Then followed the cover up: Marilyn's body being placed in the unusual position it was found in, the bottle of empty pills conveniently nearby, and the whole room looking very tidy: fresh linen was even on the bed.

She was Not smothered there was no signs of any struggle where is your actual proof of this? it certainly was Not in the official autopsy report... where are you getting your information from and please don't mention the murder theory books, you are better off putting those books in the trash IMO

That man was not telling the truth, there was no actual evidence of any tapes being shown on that program? why would you believe someone that had said that by hear say...speculation...and lies? why would you believe that person without hearing the actual real tapes that doesn't make any sense.

[Livia]

Marilyn Monroe was a big fan of enemas. She spoke quite candidly about them and the fact she was a fan. A lot of famous people were back then, it was kind of fashionable.

People can write volumes about what they think happened but the weight of your evidence doesn’t increase with your word count. The fact is that if there was as much real evidence as people claim the case would have been solved years ago. I think many people would be happier to think there was a great conspiracy involving the premature death of one of the world’s most famous and beautiful women, admired by men from the president down. However, the unglamorous truth in my opinion is that she was famously an insecure, sad, depressive woman who died of an overdose administered via an enema by her housekeeper - a service she'd performed for Marilyn many times before.

Eunice Murray, Marilyn’s housekeeper, was the women who alerted the police that she’d found Marilyn dead. When the police arrived, the washing machine was running. Seems strange to me that at a time like that, doing a load of washing was of paramount importance. Unless… it was to destroy evidence.


So, I’m going with… the Housekeeper… in the bedroom… with an enema.

[Cal.]

Originally Posted by Mazz01

She was Not smothered there was no signs of any struggle where is your actual proof of this? it certainly was Not in the official autopsy report... where are you getting your information from and please don't mention the murder theory books, your are better off putting those books in the trash IMH.

That man was not telling the truth, there was no actual evidence of any tapes being shown on that program? why would you believe someone that had said that by hear say...speculation...and lies? why would you believe that person without hearing the actual real tapes that doesn't make any sense.

I said many times I was getting my information from the documentary - the man said she was smothered on the tape, I can't remember how he knew this - how would a gentle smothering (considering she had been sedated so wouldn't have struggled) show up on an autopsy anyway? And I don't read murder theory books, I never mentioned murder theory books - where are you getting this information from?

[Mazz01]

Originally Posted by Livia

Marilyn Monroe was a big fan of enemas. She spoke quite candidly about them and the fact she was a fan. A lot of famous people were back then, it was kind of fashionable.



So, I’m going with… the Housekeeper… in the bedroom… with an enema.

Again there was no actual signs of any struggle in the autopsy report and there was nothing suspicious with anything entering that part of Marilyn's body? i'm not sure how Mrs Murray who was also quite a smallish framed lady would of been able to sedate Marilyn unconscious then lift her body weight so she could self -administrate an enema...? in fact enema's were not fashionable and was never something ever reported in that era of the 1960's?

Can i ask have you read the entire official autopsy report obviously Not because you would of read the following FACTS - if an enema had been used then how was a stool found in her system at the autopsy, don't you think the enema would expel any contents from the colon opening of the rectum, who ever you think was administrating this to Marilyn would of had great difficulty even applying this type of procedure if the other person was unconscious? What is the actual purpose of an enema, it is for clearing out contents from the colon by expelling and Not by absorbing, so do you see the dilemma there?

Here are some of the facts found in the official autopsy report :


A, The discoloration found in her colon was on the OUTSIDE of the colon wall. It was also further up than the colon entrance where an enema would have taken place. There was no inflammation at the colon entrance.

B, There was a stool present in the colon. Something that would have been gone had an enema taken place don't you think?

C, Marilyn's bloodstream contained the very drugs she had bought herself the day before in a quantity matching the prescription. She also had a lethal amount of chloral hydrate in her blood. Was THAT in the enema too???

D, The inflamed stomach lining is a clear give away that the drugs were taken orally. Enema conspiracy people ignore this entirely.

This proves that no enema had been used as a means to administer drugs to Marilyn, it was her daily habit to take them orally (as the pill bottles on her nightstand attest to this?.

WHO in their right mind would want to have an enema anyways? it isn't pleasant....especially when pills were handy...let's get realistic here!

[Mazz01]

Originally Posted by Who Is She?

I said many times I was getting my information from the documentary - the man said she was smothered on the tape, I can't remember how he knew this - how would a gentle smothering (considering she had been sedated so wouldn't have struggled) show up on an autopsy anyway? And I don't read murder theory books, I never mentioned murder theory books - where are you getting this information from?

And like i have said why would you believe hear say and speculation without hearing the actual real tapes? all of those theories mentioned on that program have all since been debunked, i was very disappointed that it went over the same old murder theories without having any actual evidence to back it up?

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Mazz01

Again there was no actual sign's of any struggle in the autopsy report and there was nothing suspicious with anything entering that part of Marilyn's body? i'm not sure how Mrs Murray who was also quite a smallish framed lady would of been able to sedate Marilyn unconscious then lift her body weight so she could self -administrate an enema...? in fact enema's were not fashionable and was never something ever reported in that era of the 1960's?

There weren't any signs of a struggle because Marilyn was a regular enema recipient and I suggest that it was given at Marilyn's request. And in fact they were very fashionable about that time and used for weight loss, mainly. She wouldn't have to lift the body, just roll it.

Like jack the Ripper, like the Kennedy assassination, there is never going to be a right answer after all this time.

[Mazz01]

Originally Posted by Livia

There weren't any signs of a struggle because Marilyn was a regular enema recipient and I suggest that it was given at Marilyn's request. And in fact they were very fashionable about that time and used for weight loss, mainly. She wouldn't have to lift the body, just roll it.

Like jack the Ripper, like the Kennedy assassination, there is never going to be a right answer after all this time.

Okay maybe you can find me some old vintage news reports of enema's in that era, i would like to see this has my friend had never found any information or reports of enema's ever being used in the 60's?

[kirklancaster]

[QUOTE=Mazz01;7356845]Haha that rumour has actually been debunked by James Hall the ambulance driver who's work colleague had since said that Mr Hall had lied about the whole incident, there was no injection by Dr Greenson and they were certainly Not at Marilyn's that evening?

I am supposed to be 're-modelling' our bathroom (to use American parlance) so I haven't really got a lot of time, but I will delight in answering you later in full.

For now, can you tell me just what source you are relying on to make the above emboldened statement? Because, as I know from years of my own research, it depends who you read on whether James Hall took 14 polygraph tests and passed all, or if he took just one and failed, whether James Hall accepted $400,000 for his story by the Globe newspaper or if he never tried to capitalise on his story, whether Hall's driver Murray Leibowitz supported Hall's story with similar testimony or if he said he had no recollection of being at Marilyn's during that fateful morning etc etc.

I think therefore, that; as you were not principally involved in Marilyn's final hours and have no personal, direct eyewitness knowledge of what actually transpired during her last hours but are as reliant on the existing documentation as I am to inform you, then you should refrain from arrogantly handing out advice regarding my "being seduced by these scandalous murder theory books done by Slatzer and Donald Wolfe" and especially that I need to "really need to put those books down."

As to; "As i have noted from your post you go with the Kennedy's murder theroy but please explain how exactly did they kill her? yes the police records were confiscated for the simple reason that Marilyn was having an affair with the president...yes that part is true and lets Not forget all the other woman in his life who had been secrely involved with him and some even go on record saying they had actually got pregnant by JKF - Judith Exner for one, and he also had an affair with his private secretary Mimi Alford and probably many many more...did these woman also get murdered i think Not, so what was so special about Marilyn;s relationship, i feel many of these woman knew the same has what Marilyn knew?"

Very briefly, Marilyn's situation with JFK and Bobby was unique because all the other women mentioned were not 'Marilyn Monroe' but 'fishwives and housewives' by comparison, and that being so, they did not share with JFK mutual 'friends' like mobster 'boss of all bosses' Sam Giancana.

As Joe Kennedy was a mobster himself, this covert close personal relationship of JFK's with Giancana is hardly surprising, but it nonetheless beggars the question of just what dealings and conversations Kennedy had with Giancana which Marilyn was directly privy to. In addition, we know Kennedy discussed matters of State Security with Marilyn, and as Marilyn was sleeping with both these powerful men, then who knows what information was passed to and fro by way of 'pillow talk'. Extra marital affairs might embarrass the Kennedy's in respect of the other woman they 'conquered' and used, but they had reason to really fear Marilyn exposing to the world what she knew about them, and only a fool would think otherwise given the unique circumstances of this matter .


"Anyhow, how do you think the Kennedy's physically killed her? With
Nembutal? Doubtful."

Is it beyond the realms of high logical probability that the best way to murder Marilyn Monroe and avoid detection, is via an administration of a lethal overdose of drugs and making it look suicide, given her use of the same, and her history of depression?

Bear in mind also that Bobby Kennedy himself visited Marilyn to try to appeal to her not to execute her threats to 'go public' with what she knew, and also to convince her to accept why he could not see her again, and why she should no longer attempt to contact him. Kennedy knew that Marilyn would not listen to anyone else and he arrogantly believed (probably because of her gullibility before with both JFK and him) that only he himself was capable of dissuading her. The evidence that he was in L.A and at Marilyn's that day and night, and also, therefore that the Kennedy 'alibi' that he was in Frisco was lies, is overwhelming. However, despite Kennedy's confidence, Marilyn erupted in anger at his attempts to end the relationship and her furious reaction and reinforced threats to reveal all to the world, determined his reaction and forced his hand. There was no time to plan an auto accident, a 'disturbed' burglary or any other manner of murdering her. It had to be now and Kennedy knew just how to achieve it - Marilyn's psychiatrist Ralph Greenson.

"There WAS a police report. I don't kn what you're referring to.
The conspiracy theories have GOT TO GO."


And what a 'police report' - Jack Clemmons a 15 year LA Police Veteran, who is the first officer on the scene, sees through the B.S staged death scene, notes rigor mortis in the corpse, detects Housekeeper Eunice Murray's 'vagueness and evasiveness, and perceives how overly desperate Marilyn's psychiatrist Ralph Greenson was to convince him that Marilyn committed suicide by swallowing the contents of all the empty pill bottles so conveniently arranged on her bedside table - complete with their caps all neatly screwed back on. Clemmons does not buy into this 'suicide' and declares that Marilyn was murdered. Within one hour Clemmons is replaced by Det Sgt Sergeant Marvin Iannone Bobby Kennedy's own personal 'dirty Tricks' cop and the very cop who'd been at the house earlier.

Clemmons views were 'dismissed' as was the evidence of Marilyn's neighbour along with other witness evidence not favourable to the 'official' sanitised Kennedy-friendly version of events.

As to the glass on the floor which 'turned up' on later photographs, the original officers on the scene swear it was not there when they inspected Marilyn's bedroom upon their arrival. That's a big a mystery as the blood smears on the bedroom wall seen in early police photographs but which magically have disappeared in later versions, and Eunice Murrays changing testimony - among other 'mysteries'.

"For all of you that believe Marilyn was somehow 'murdered'...what about
Marilyn's history of overdoses and drugabuse, hospitalization and
depression? is that beeing pushed aside and denied in favor of some
slanderous theory?

Marilyn overdosed several times and was saved each time by either
Arthur Miller or Paula Strasberg.... The last two years of Marilyn's life showed mayor depression, serious drug issues and detoxes, in and out of hospitals....
She nearly overdosed TWICE in the last few weeks before her actual
death! Magazines of that time predicted her actual suicide!! Yes, that
is true!!! (I have many vintage magazines). Now, those are the
facts....conspiracy theories have no proof at all. Where is the actual
proof?"

All the historical data above is not evidence of Marilyn's suicide, merely an indicator of just why if someone with a vested interest in having her murdered, would choose a 'suicide by drug overdose' as the best way to achieve it.

As I said, I have not time here to reproduce all the compelling evidence that Marilyn did not commit suicide but will do so later.

"The one thing that nobody from the conspiracy camp can seem to tell me
is HOW did the Kennedy's actually kill Marilyn?
She died from a drugover dose...is this the normal way to kill somebody?
I have heard stuff like "she was forced to take the pills"...how by
being hypnotized by a swinging pendulum....i mean, come on!!!"

That last nonsense is not worthy of you, and the Kennedy's did not murder Marilyn - Ralph Greenson did at Bobby Kennedy's behest.

"There is NO evidence Marilyn was murdered. Absolutely none. Zippo. It
is very misleading to claim that there is actual proof. There are
'mystery sources', like secret bugs in Marilyn's house - again where
are these secret tapes...hear-say, rumours and speculation....none of
it amounts to PROOF. If there was they would have proven it a long time
ago"

The tapes did exist - numerous credible witnesses heard them, and if they never existed, then why were they seized by the Secret service and why did Otash lodge a law suite in 1966 to have them returned?

No - Strip away all the inevitable false testimony by cranks, money grubbing 'opportunists', and Kennedy haters with their own axe to grind, and sift through the fake 'facts' introduced by those with a vested interest in 'debunking' the murder theorists, and there remains a hard core of evidence which compels that Marilyn was murdered. Such evidence ranges from the testimony of unimpeachable witnesses (most of it inexplicably suppressed, dismissed or ignored) as well as all the overwhelming circumstantial evidence, the many cases of vital evidence going 'missing', and vital body organs being mysteriously destroyed before they can be forensically examined.

As with all cases of any criminal activity by powerful politicians or state, witnesses who do step forward have their evidence suppressed or have their credibility undermined by being depicted as cranks or worse, by the all
powerful propaganda machines and state organisations which the guilty parties definitely control; Media, FBI, CIA, Police, District Attorney's Office etc etc. This is exactly what has transpired in this case with Clemmons and other genuine witnesses being rubbished or 'dismissed'. Then there are the other witnesses are too intimidated to say anything publicly until the men in power have died, or the state control changes hands and the threat of retribution has diminished or safely disappeared altogether.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Mazz01

She was Not smothered there was no signs of any struggle where is your actual proof of this? it certainly was Not in the official autopsy report... where are you getting your information from and please don't mention the murder theory books, you are better off putting those books in the trash IMH.

That man was not telling the truth, there was no actual evidence of any tapes being shown on that program? why would you believe someone that had said that by hear say...speculation...and lies? why would you believe that person without hearing the actual real tapes that doesn't make any sense.

Listen to yourself! You are guilty of the same practices which you are critising others on here for.

Why do you believe that there were no tapes? The tapes did exist - numerous credible witnesses heard them, and if they never existed, then why were they seized by the Secret service and why did Otash lodge a law suite in 1966 to have them returned?

What are your sources for stating your theories with such conviction? Or should I be asking where do you keep your Time machine?

I personally welcome any debate on here but please don't attempt to belittle other people because they don't agree with you, and please don't respond to a post by merely ridiculing that post and reiterating your own viewpoints without also answering the original points with valid counterpoints supported by rational reasons for those counterpoints.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Mazz01

Okay maybe you can find me some old vintage news reports of enema's in that era, i would like to see this has my friend had never found any information or reports of enema's ever being used in the 60's?

I'm not doing your friend's research for her. Tell her to Google Nembutal.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Mazz01

Okay maybe you can find me some old vintage news reports of enema's in that era, i would like to see this has my friend had never found any information or reports of enema's ever being used in the 60's?

Again - why do you find it necessary to insist on proof from any Forum member who make statements which you take exception to, whilst simultaneously, you make statements which you present as gospel without yourself proffering any evidence to substantiate such statements?

What are your sources which justify your stance that you are 'right' and everyone else is wrong?

I believe Marilyn was murdered by Greenson at the behest of Robert Kennedy. I believe as much because of the years of research I myself have carried out, but I am not a bigot or an inflexible idiot, and I am here to be persuaded that my belief is wrong, but it is with logical argument supported by evidence that I will be convinced - not sweeping statements passed off as 'fact' without such evidence or substantive grounds. I also do not need to be patronised, and neither do my very intelligent and knowledgeable friends on here.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

I have a friend who was there the night she died and is making a film based around the events that lead to her murder.

True dat.

Oh Lord Marsh.

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

Oh Lord Marsh.

Don't diss my friend.

[Mazz01]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

Listen to yourself! You are guilty of the same practices which you are critising other on here for.

Why do you believe that there were no tapes? The tapes did exist - numerous credible witnesses heard them, and if they never existed, then why were they seized by the Secret service and why did Otash lodge a law suite in 1966 to have them returned?

What are your sources for stating your theories with such conviction? Or should I be asking where do you keep your Time machine?

I personally welcome any debate on here but please don't attempt to belittle other people because they don't agree with you, and please don't respond to a post by merely ridiculing that post and reiterating your own viewpoints without also answering the original points with valid counterpoints supported by rational reasons for those counterpoints.

Hmm i wasn't trying to belittle anyone it's how i come across when i write on these type of forums, i have not said anything to insult anyone i'm not sure why you are getting so defensive? i made my points but you seem to have taken it out of context has me trying to say that i'm right and everyone is wrong, No that is not what i was doing...i just wanted to know why people are so easily swayed with believing these FACTS that do not show any real evidence to the contrary? you say that there were actual tapes of Marilyn's house being bugged so where are these tapes now... and who are these people saying that they had actually heard them, it seems odd that anyone can make these claims without showing any real evidence to back up their claims, and why would you believe those people if you had not heard the evidence for yourself?

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

And what a 'police report' - Jack Clemmons a 15 year LA Police Veteran, who is the first officer on the scene, sees through the B.S staged death scene, notes rigor mortis in the corpse, detects Housekeeper Eunice Murray's 'vagueness and evasiveness, and perceives how overly desperate Marilyn's psychiatrist Ralph Greenson was to convince him that Marilyn committed suicide by swallowing the contents of all the empty pill bottles so conveniently arranged on her bedside table - complete with their caps all neatly screwed back on. Clemmons does not buy into this 'suicide' and declares that Marilyn was murdered. Within one hour Clemmons is replaced by Det Sgt Sergeant Marvin Iannone Bobby Kennedy's own personal 'dirty Tricks' cop and the very cop who'd been at the house earlier.

Clemmons views were 'dismissed' as was the evidence of Marilyn's neighbour along with other witness evidence not favourable to the 'official' sanitised Kennedy-friendly version of events.

As to the glass on the floor which 'turned up' on later photographs, the original officers on the scene swear it was not there when they inspected Marilyn's bedroom upon their arrival. That's a big a mystery as the blood smears on the bedroom wall seen in early police photographs but which magically have disappeared in later versions, and Eunice Murrays changing testimony - among other 'mysteries'.

Lets see, you must of read several murder theories provided by Clemmons who had actually changed his official eye witness statement on that death report? see i think it's very important to not get wrapped up in all these conspiracy books and read from the official police report stated in 1962, where do you see any of Clemmons evidence suggesting Marilyn's body had been moved and a missing glass or Mrs Murray washing bed sheets in that 1962 report? all these details had suddenly changed in a book written by murder theorist Robert Slatzer in the 1970's when he had contacted Clemmons, Slatzer who is a notorious liar a man who confessed that he was once married to Marilyn in 1952, this was certainly Not true which had been debunked by many of Marilyn's close friends?

I really think you have been HAD on why Clemmons had changed his official police testimony, this officer had actually been fired from the Police department on grounds of ill practices that went against all police rules, he then decides to give a tell all story to Robert Slatzer about missing evidence of Marilyn's body being moved and the mysterious bed sheets being washed? and all this right in front of other police officers at the scene who had Not even witness any of this going on?...i mean come on!!! it's all lies i'm afraid.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Mazz01

And like i have said why would you believe hear say and speculation without hearing the actual real tapes? all of those theories mentioned on that program have all since been debunked, i was very disappointed that it went over the same old murder theories without having any actual evidence to back it up?

Source please.

[Mazz01]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

[/B]

Source please.

I think you need to show your source's that those tapes at Marilyn's house did actual exist...and no need for you to be so defensive as you can not prove what you say is right?

[Mazz01]

Originally Posted by Livia

I'm not doing your friend's research for her. Tell her to Google Nembutal.

Oh that's okay, because you wont be able to find anything relating to enema's being fashionable in the 1960's, so there goes your theory?

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Mazz01

Hmm i wasn't trying to belittle anyone it's how i come across when i write on these type of forums, i have not said anything to insult anyone i'm not sure why you are getting so defensive? i made my points but you seem to have taken it out of context has me trying to say that i'm right and everyone is wrong, No that is not what i was doing...i just wanted to know why people are so easily swayed with believing these FACTS that do not show any real evidence to the contrary? you say that there were actual tapes of Marilyn's house being bugged so where are these tapes now... and who are these people saying that they had actually heard them, it seems odd that anyone can make these claims without showing any real evidence to back up their claims, and why would you believe those people if you had not heard the evidence for yourself?

There were several witnesses who had heard these tapes on the Channel 5 documentary which you purport to have studied. How did you miss them? Ray Strait listened to over 11 hours of these tapes.

Fred Otash secreted the tapes but upon his death the Secret Service stripped all three properties which Otash owned and the tapes - along with other documents - disappeared never to be seen again. At the same time, a filing cabinet containing Otash's most sensitive material was taken from his apartment by his lawyer and the contents of that too was never seen again.

The evidence from varied sources that these tapes existed is compelling, which is one of the reasons why I personally believe that they existed. Fred Otash's 1966 law suite to have them returned is conclusive proof.

Because they existed, and because there is also compelling evidence that Otash did bug Marilyn's house (as he bugged Rock Hudson's and others) and because the witnesses who claim to have heard the tapes come across as honest and very credible, and because their links to Otash and Marilyn are proven, then I also believe what they say regarding the contents of the tapes.

Again Mazz - what source do you rely on for you not to believe all this very credible evidence and testimony?