[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Ammi

A 14-year-old, Mehran Khan, said about 400 students were in the hall when the gunmen broke through the doors and started shooting. They shot one of the teachers in the head and then set her on fire and shouted "God is great!" as she screamed

..this is mind numbingly evil...I don't even know why they're referred to as terrorists, they're just murderers...

Should monsters that can act with such detached, intense evil, ever really be categorised as human Ammi?

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

Should monsters that can act with such detached, intense evil, ever really be categorised as human Ammi?

..sadly yes, Kirk because they are human...no animal, nothing other than a human would ever do something like this...

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Ammi

..sadly yes, Kirk because they are human...no animal, nothing other than a human would ever do something like this...

They are deranged, insane humans filled will hatred and rage.

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Cherie

They are deranged, insane humans filled will hatred and rage.

..it's odd really/just a thought I guess...but hate as an emotion is so much more 'contagious' than the opposite of love..people can instil and encourage/nurture hate ..manipulate it from a seed that was maybe just negative but not the extreme of hate...and yet tolerance/love etc, positive feelings can't be manipulated in the same way...maybe humans are more predisposed to be negative/interesting...

[arista]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

Should monsters that can act with such detached, intense evil, ever really be categorised as human Ammi?

Yes Kirk Evil
but so are the Pakistan Army and USA
who kill the Taliban children

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Ammi

..it's odd really/just a thought I guess...but hate as an emotion is so much more 'contagious' than the opposite of love..people can instil and encourage/nurture hate ..manipulate it from a seed that was maybe just negative but not the extreme of hate...and yet tolerance/love etc, positive feelings can't be manipulated in the same way...maybe humans are more predisposed to be negative/interesting...

I fear that this is the sad truth. The vast majority of people, people who you had thought were good/righteous and morally upstanding, will turn on you in an instant when you tell them something that they didn't want to hear or that "makes them feel bad". And then they will set about telling others just what they think, in hopes that they might make them turn too. This is human nature. This is exactly what makes it so easy for these people - the people at the top, with political agendas, who have never picked up a gun or set foot in a terrorist encampment in their lives - to twist people into all sorts of things.

Incidentally, and something that I've been trying to say at various times for DAYS on here - it's exactly why it's so counter-productive to insist on calling these people "monsters", "not human", "genetically flawed". Maybe desperately trying to insist that they are "less than human" helps people to come to terms with the fact that humans do horrendous things every day. I don't know. That's something I accepted a long time ago. What I do know, is that all it leads to is THIS:

"Look. Look at what THEY think of you. They think we are inferior. They think we are less than human. They would see us exterminated like rats. We will stop them. Join us."

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I fear that this is the sad truth. The vast majority of people, people who you had thought were good/righteous and morally upstanding, will turn on you in an instant when you tell them something that they didn't want to hear or that "makes them feel bad". And then they will set about telling others just what they think, in hopes that they might make them turn too. This is human nature. This is exactly what makes it so easy for these people - the people at the top, with political agendas, who have never picked up a gun or set foot in a terrorist encampment in their lives - to twist people into all sorts of things.

Incidentally, and something that I've been trying to say at various times for DAYS on here - it's exactly why it's so counter-productive to insist on calling these people "monsters", "not human", "genetically flawed". Maybe desperately trying to insist that they are "less than human" helps people to come to terms with the fact that humans do horrendous things every day. I don't know. That's something I accepted a long time ago. What I do know, is that all it leads to is THIS:

"Look. Look at what THEY think of you. They think we are inferior. They think we are less than human. They would see us exterminated like rats. We will stop them. Join us."

..yeah I can understand what you're saying...I guess it's a bit like the 'pack'/bully thing to a total extreme or taking it to it's ultimate..?..also I think fear as well in some cases maybe..?...fear for themselves and their families if they don't become part of it and yeah, if we are horrendous back then it won't end or diminish anything, it'll not only inflame it but it also gives it 'justification' or reaffirms what is thought justified anyway...but if the opposite were to happen, like say a group who said..hey, let's all hug/love each other..(I know that sounds naff nut I can't think of an example..)...a lot of people and possible most people would thing....what loonies for goodness sake....

[Livia]

Originally Posted by The Mockerdeer

I'm saying that the Taliban if they're going to exist should be becoming more like freedom fighters than terrorists, I'm sorry but killing really corrupt Politicians in those countries, and Military Soldiers that work for them is not terrorism imo, attacking innocent people, especially children that are only going to School is where I draw the line and it starts to become terrorism and why terrorist groups like the Taliban lose their cause to the me and the rest of the world straight away.

And even if the Jewish had've been wiped out by the Germans, some of the other invaded nations probably would've attacked them instead.

Sorry Mock, I think you're at least a couple of parsecs off target on this one.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I fear that this is the sad truth. The vast majority of people, people who you had thought were good/righteous and morally upstanding, will turn on you in an instant when you tell them something that they didn't want to hear or that "makes them feel bad". And then they will set about telling others just what they think, in hopes that they might make them turn too. This is human nature. This is exactly what makes it so easy for these people - the people at the top, with political agendas, who have never picked up a gun or set foot in a terrorist encampment in their lives - to twist people into all sorts of things.

Incidentally, and something that I've been trying to say at various times for DAYS on here - it's exactly why it's so counter-productive to insist on calling these people "monsters", "not human", "genetically flawed". Maybe desperately trying to insist that they are "less than human" helps people to come to terms with the fact that humans do horrendous things every day. I don't know. That's something I accepted a long time ago. What I do know, is that all it leads to is THIS:

"Look. Look at what THEY think of you. They think we are inferior. They think we are less than human. They would see us exterminated like rats. We will stop them. Join us."

When these... men - and I use the term in its loosest possible sense - go in to a school and kill children, I refuse to pussyfoot around and choose my language carefully in case it might be a bit inflammatory. They are monsters. And of course, the opposite of stopping them is allowing them to continue unchecked until all of us - every one of us, even the understanding ones - end up in their crosshairs.

[Northern Monkey]

***** these Islamic child killing bastards.They need slaughtering like pigs.Whatever they are classed as,Terrorists,Murderers,Monsters whatever....

[Creggle]

Originally Posted by The Mockerdeer

I was just saying that if the Taliban feel like the Governments are corrupt should be stopped then they're going the wrong way about it imo.

And I wasn't the one that originally brought WWII into this thread initially.

I know mate and you may be right, but Taliban vs the Middle-East is nothing like Jews vs Hitler!! Besides terrorists don't fight to make anything better or to bring peace/change ideals, they do what they do because they enjoy it.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Livia

When these... men - and I use the term in its loosest possible sense - go in to a school and kill children, I refuse to pussyfoot around and choose my language carefully in case it might be a bit inflammatory. They are monsters. And of course, the opposite of stopping them is allowing them to continue unchecked until all of us - every one of us, even the understanding ones - end up in their crosshairs.

Even if refusing to be more careful with your language leads to the deaths of yet more children? I fail to see your logic there. I've said time and again that it's not about appeasing the people who are doing these things, it's about being VERY careful not to "tar with the same brush" in broad strokes, because that only helps to create more of these men.

I have literally never once said that these people don't need to be stopped. If I had one of those who walked into that school tied up in a room, I'd make it hurt before they died. A lot. That was never the point. And my point in pointing out that they ARE indeed human isn't to appease anyone or to make them seem "better than monsters" - just pointing out that calling them "monsters", "demons", etc. is simply running away from the truth. The truth being that they don't NEED to be monsters or demons... because plain old human beings are ****ing awful creatures. Until people start admitting that, no peace nor enlightenment will ever be found. We will never be better, if we can't admit how bad we can be. If we immediately jump to the notion that the worst of us are, in fact, a different species entirely.

It might make news stories like this easier (not easy, but easier) to swallow, but when it comes down to it, it's simply a lie. They are people. They are awful, disgusting people. There are A LOT of awful, disgusting people in the world.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Even if refusing to be more careful with your language leads to the deaths of yet more children? I fail to see your logic there. I've said time and again that it's not about appeasing the people who are doing these things, it's about being VERY careful not to "tar with the same brush" in broad strokes, because that only helps to create more of these men.

I have literally never once said that these people don't need to be stopped. If I had one of those who walked into that school tied up in a room, I'd make it hurt before they died. A lot. That was never the point. And my point in pointing out that they ARE indeed human isn't to appease anyone or to make them seem "better than monsters" - just pointing out that calling them "monsters", "demons", etc. is simply running away from the truth. The truth being that they don't NEED to be monsters or demons... because plain old human beings are ****ing awful creatures. Until people start admitting that, no peace nor enlightenment will ever be found. We will never be better, if we can't admit how bad we can be. If we immediately jump to the notion that the worst of us are, in fact, a different species entirely.

It might make news stories like this easier (not easy, but easier) to swallow, but when it comes down to it, it's simply a lie. They are people. They are awful, disgusting people. There are A LOT of awful, disgusting people in the world.

Is 'Truth' when it comes to these butchering, murdering terrorists 'The Truth That Dare Not Speak Its Name'?' (apologies to Oscar)

Because I do not grasp your point T.S. that calling them 'Monsters' or 'Demons' will somehow lead to them gaining more recruits to their evil cause - it won't.

Ordinary sane people - Muslim or otherwise - do not drop their chintz cups of tea, grab their coats and passports, then shoot out of their suburban homes and catch the next flight to Syria to become Islamic Fundamentalist Jihadists just because someone called ISIS terrorists 'monsters' or 'Demons'.

Nor will calling them such names offend terrorist sensibilities - they have none.

As I have detailed in another response to you on another thread; 'Monsters' and 'Demons' are descriptors which people like me, Livia and Eyeball Paul and Creggle use because that is what we perceive them as, and because synonyms for such words are too impotent to describe these devils.

You, yourself even struggle to find apt descriptors, because your choice of 'Awful' and 'Disgusting' does not quite 'cut it' when describing the callous beheading of cowed and bound innocent victims, or the cold execution of hundreds of poor little innocent schoolchildren, does it?

No - it doesn't. In fact such words would be more apt if they tumbled forth from the lips of some sexually repressed middle-aged spinster after viewing a soft porn film.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Even if refusing to be more careful with your language leads to the deaths of yet more children? I fail to see your logic there. I've said time and again that it's not about appeasing the people who are doing these things, it's about being VERY careful not to "tar with the same brush" in broad strokes, because that only helps to create more of these men.

I have literally never once said that these people don't need to be stopped. If I had one of those who walked into that school tied up in a room, I'd make it hurt before they died. A lot. That was never the point. And my point in pointing out that they ARE indeed human isn't to appease anyone or to make them seem "better than monsters" - just pointing out that calling them "monsters", "demons", etc. is simply running away from the truth. The truth being that they don't NEED to be monsters or demons... because plain old human beings are ****ing awful creatures. Until people start admitting that, no peace nor enlightenment will ever be found. We will never be better, if we can't admit how bad we can be. If we immediately jump to the notion that the worst of us are, in fact, a different species entirely.

It might make news stories like this easier (not easy, but easier) to swallow, but when it comes down to it, it's simply a lie. They are people. They are awful, disgusting people. There are A LOT of awful, disgusting people in the world.

If more children die it won't because I called the people responsible murdering f*c*pigs. It will be because the people responsible are murdering f*c*pigs.

If someone walks into a school, slaughters children, set teachers on fire and all the other terrible things they did, I reserve the right to call them monsters. And yes, there are a lot of awful people in the world... and these child-killers rank amongst the worst.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Livia

If more children die it won't because I called the people responsible murdering f*c*pigs. It will be because the people responsible are murdering f*c*pigs.

If someone walks into a school, slaughters children, set teachers on fire and all the other terrible things they did, I reserve the right to call them monsters. And yes, there are a lot of awful people in the world... and these child-killers rank amongst the worst.

Patronising **** alert:

You're smarter than this, Livia. Smart enough to know that doing everything we can to stop young people who are not YET flockpigs from falling into the hands of the current flockpigs who would work their magic to turn them into new flockpigs, is far more important than despairing and ranting in the unthinkable aftermath. That actually benefits no one.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Patronising **** alert:

You're smarter than this, Livia. Smart enough to know that doing everything we can to stop young people who are not YET flockpigs from falling into the hands of the current flockpigs who would work their magic to turn them into new flockpigs, is far more important than despairing and ranting in the unthinkable aftermath. That actually benefits no one.

Totally agree. Doesn't stop me hating these particular child killers and hoping the spend the rest of eternity paying for what they did. Decent, law-abiding Muslims will feel the same, I imagine, seeing what atrocities these people are carrying out in the name of their God. Sometimes ranting in the aftermath is a release.

Thanks for the alert... genuinely made me LOL