[GypsyGoth]

It's really sad, he looks like the type of boy who should be learning how skateboard.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by GypsyGoth

It's really sad, he looks like the type of boy who should be learning how skateboard.

Whereas what? Asian teenagers just "look right" with an ak47 and a bandana, and look like they should be learning hatred 101 and advanced vest bombing?

Oh, and how to rape pretty little white boys. Apparently.

I am totally serious here: why is it any more shocking to see a young white man caught up in extremism than it is to see ANY young man caught up in extremism? Supposing, of course, that we do reject ridiculous notions like genetic predisposition towards terrorism. Which we should. Vocally. No matter how hard certain proponents of such a concept might try to backpeddle.

[Ammi]

..I don't think that was meant at all, TS...I think it was just a comment made because of his youth ..it's something that hit me with the pic for all 3 of them and I guess that's mainly because quite often the faces are hidden so age isn't so apparent...and I'm sure that GG, as I do, finds that very upsetting and disturbing..the 'skateboard' thing just to me feels like a comment to show the contrast of what we would think would be part of a teenage life and not the hate of ISIS..


..EDIT:..also it was the white 'jihadi' that was the focus of the thread as well, so nothing really meant by a comment focused on him is how I saw it...

[Ammi]

..may be a fake pic..?...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...S-instead.html

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Ammi

..I don't think that was meant at all, TS...I think it was just a comment made because of his youth ..it's something that hit me with the pic for all 3 of them and I guess that's mainly because quite often the faces are hidden so age isn't so apparent...and I'm sure that GG, as I do, finds that very upsetting and disturbing..the 'skateboard' thing just to me feels like a comment to show the contrast of what we would think would be part of a teenage life and not the hate of ISIS..


..EDIT:..also it was the white 'jihadi' that was the focus of the thread as well, so nothing really meant by a comment focused on him is how I saw it...

I don't think anything was meant by it at all but I do think it's illustrative of something that's really quite evident, and I don't think there's much point in avoiding: people are shocked because he's young and white, not because he's young. People struggle to get their heads around it because he looks like the boy next door, and therefore can't be dismissed as some "foreign devil, not like us". Which has been a big theme for me in these threads recently... People having a constant struggle with cognitive dissonance relating to war / terrorism.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I don't think anything was meant by it at all but I do think it's illustrative of something that's really quite evident, and I don't think there's much point in avoiding: people are shocked be a use he's young and white, not because he's young. People struggle to get their heads around it because he looks like the boy next door, and therefore can't be dismissed as some "foreign devil, not like us". Which has been a bug theme for me in these threads recently... People having a constant struggle with cognitive dissonance relating to war / terrorism.

People are surprised because he's young, he's white and he's joined up with ISIL. Which is an Islamic organisation in the Middle East. There aren't many white people fighting with ISIL. That's why people are surprised.

IRA terrorists were predominantly white, Baader Meinhof terrorists were predominantly white... ISIL are predominantly Arab/Middle Eastern or whichever cultural pigeonhole you'd like to place them... but whichever way you twist it there aren't many white kids. So really, no one's struggling to get their heads around anything, they're right to be surprised. Doesn't mean people struggle with cognitive dissonance or anything else.

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I don't think anything was meant by it at all but I do think it's illustrative of something that's really quite evident, and I don't think there's much point in avoiding: people are shocked because he's young and white, not because he's young. People struggle to get their heads around it because he looks like the boy next door, and therefore can't be dismissed as some "foreign devil, not like us". Which has been a big theme for me in these threads recently... People having a constant struggle with cognitive dissonance relating to war / terrorism.

..honestly TS, I just don't get it/don't see it as you do at all...for young people, any of the three young men in that pic to be so easily indoctrinated into 'hate' and into a total lack of any empathy for human life is extremely shocking, how could the belief of such extremism not shock...

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Ammi

..honestly TS, I just don't get it/don't see it as you do at all...for young people, any of the three young men in that pic to be so easily indoctrinated into 'hate' and into a total lack of any empathy for human life is extremely shocking, how could the belief of such extremism not shock...

Exactly Ammi. It is the ability not to be shocked by extremism and the inability to condemn that extremism which I find shocking.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Ammi

..honestly TS, I just don't get it/don't see it as you do at all...for young people, any of the three young men in that pic to be so easily indoctrinated into 'hate' and into a total lack of any empathy for human life is extremely shocking, how could the belief of such extremism not shock...

Well, I agree that it's shocking in that there are people out there who, at some point down the line, want to covert young people to such cold hatred (the "head of the snake" so to speak), although as a psychologist I certainly don't find it shocking that such is possible, because the human mind is fragile and easily twisted and nor do I find their youth shocking because young minds are even more fragile. The older you get, the more rigid your thought processes become, and the harder you become to indoctrinate. Very young children are exceptionally easy to "mould", which is the basic premise of all hereditary religion. Teenagers and young adults are often still ideologically confused and the right pushing in the right places can completely warp them philosophically and morally.

Like I said, it is horrific and it is shocking that there are people who want to. Despite Kirk's inference (and after, with hypocrisy, suggesting that I have misquoted HIM), I am horrified by terrorism and absolutely condemn it. I don't think these warped young minds can be fixed, or at the very least I think it would be dangerous and realistically not possible to even try on such a scale, and perhaps I can conceded that they are "monsters" insofar as monsters can be created by people with selfish agendas.

Tl;Dr - does it shock me that there are people who set out to create monsters? Yes. Does it shock me that young people can readily be twisted into those monsters? Absolutely not.



ANYWAY - my argument remains. I personally find it equally shocking no matter the skin colour of the young person, but it's evident that most people don't. Not even necessarily on this thread / forum (although as I said, recent threads with assertions of genetic barbarism...) but in general, isn't it evident? Isn't it evident with this story (hoax or not) being major news at all? Does every young "brown" British IS convert spark news stories, debate threads and daily mail hysteria? No. Because people expect that. They can accept that. They can squirrel it away in their mind along with all of the other "foreign folks terrorism stuff in dusty places", say how awful it is, and largely not think about it too much. Some might suggest it as a reason that "these people shouldn't be in our country in the first place!!", etc. That becomes more difficult when the convert being paraded is "little Johnny Edwards from just down th'Road he were always a quiet chap". It destroys that comfort zone and increases the "OMG factor" tenfold for MANY people. There's a reason for that, and in my opinion, it's the same reason that a lot of people find themselves insistent that most if not all extremists are in some way "born wrong", inherently "not normal folks" psychologically, by their very nature. It's because they simply don't want to believe that, but for certain historical twists of fate, these monsters could be their children / nieces / nephews or the teenage boys they see skating past the window every day.

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Well, I agree that it's shocking in that there are people out there who, at some point down the line, want to covert young people to such cold hatred (the "head of the snake" so to speak), although as a psychologist I certainly don't find it shocking that such is possible, because the human mind is fragile and easily twisted and nor do I find their youth shocking because young minds are even more fragile. The older you get, the more rigid your thought processes become, and the harder you become to indoctrinate. Very young children are exceptionally easy to "mould", which is the basic premise of all hereditary religion. Teenagers and young adults are often still ideologically confused and the right pushing in the right places can completely warp them philosophically and morally.

Like I said, it is horrific and it is shocking that there are people who want to. Despite Kirk's inference (and after, with hypocrisy, suggesting that I have misquoted HIM), I am horrified by terrorism and absolutely condemn it. I don't think these warped young minds can be fixed, or at the very least I think it would be dangerous and realistically not possible to even try on such a scale, and perhaps I can conceded that they are "monsters" insofar as monsters can be created by people with selfish agendas.

Tl;Dr - does it shock me that there are people who set out to create monsters? Yes. Does it shock me that young people can readily be twisted into those monsters? Absolutely not.



ANYWAY - my argument remains. I personally find it equally shocking no matter the skin colour of the young person, but it's evident that most people don't. Not even necessarily on this thread / forum (although as I said, recent threads with assertions of genetic barbarism...) but in general, isn't it evident? Isn't it evident with this story (hoax or not) being major news at all? Does every young "brown" British IS convert spark news stories, debate threads and daily mail hysteria? No. Because people expect that. They can accept that. They can squirrel it away in their mind along with all of the other "foreign folks terrorism stuff in dusty places", say how awful it is, and largely not think about it too much. Some might suggest it as a reason that "these people shouldn't be in our country in the first place!!", etc. That becomes more difficult when the convert being paraded is "little Johnny Edwards from just down th'Road he were always a quiet chap". It destroys that comfort zone and increases the "OMG factor" tenfold for MANY people. There's a reason for that, and in my opinion, it's the same reason that a lot of people find themselves insistent that most if not all extremists are in some way "born wrong", inherently "not normal folks" psychologically, by their very nature. It's because they simply don't want to believe that, but for certain historical twists of fate, these monsters could be their children / nieces / nephews or the teenage boys they see skating past the window every day.

..apologies that I only have time atm to skim read your post so I will come back to it and read it through properly a bit later...


..anyway, just for now...I don't know if you've read about the young Syrian boy who 'escaped' ISIS..?...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...t-blow-up.html


..the methods obviously used to 'create evil' is largely fear...fear for their families and themselves, that if they don't themselves be part of the atrocities/part of the murders/part of the tortures/do what is asked of them.. then they themselves as well as their families will become victims..will become the ones who are tortured and killed...their mothers and sisters raped etc..?...so with the 'white jihadi'..?...there was no such fear instilled, there were not the same methods of brainwashing used/there was not that 'indoctrination' that the young Syrian boy tells of..(we presume, although I think it's all actually fake..)..but that was what the story led us to presume...that there was no threat to him/his family...he lived in no fear in his life....so would that not naturally provoke a greater shock..that he would be part of these inhuman acts?..that has nothing to do with his appearance at all.....

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Whereas what? Asian teenagers just "look right" with an ak47 and a bandana, and look like they should be learning hatred 101 and advanced vest bombing?

Oh, and how to rape pretty little white boys. Apparently.

I am totally serious here: why is it any more shocking to see a young white man caught up in extremism than it is to see ANY young man caught up in extremism? Supposing, of course, that we do reject ridiculous notions like genetic predisposition towards terrorism. Which we should. Vocally. No matter how hard certain proponents of such a concept might try to backpeddle.

LMAO - You are the one misquoting others in order to cover up fatal flaws in your very weak argument - not me, and you have resorted to childish skits instead of properly addressing my last post on the 'Gunman takes hostages in Sydney cafe' thread, which you completely avoided. So who is 'backpedaling'?

Come let us debate and discuss like sensible informed adults.