[Nedusa]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

Rubbish. The Muslim community reacted with one voice alongside all other Britons in condemning the attacks in Paris and many highly respected Muslims have taken every opportunity to speak out in both schools and mosques and even Speakers Corner in Hyde Park about combating and destroying extremism in Britain. Some of those speakers have been put on Islamist death lists for speaking out but they carry on regardless.

Really.......?

That'a not the view of millions of non muslims in this Country nor is it the view of the Govt who have become exasperated at the lack of real progress in fighting extremism in this Country.

With the Country on the highest terrorist alert for decades and our security services overstretched trying to foil one potential terrorist attack after another, clearly something is not working.

Having a Muslim cleric go on TV and condemn the latest Islamic terrorist atrocity is expected in fact it is the least that is expected. But where is the real movement for change at grass roots level, where is the openess from the Imams to promote the peacefulness of the Islamic faith.

Why are we not seeing massive muslim peace marches all over the Country condemning cold blooded murder in their name.

Having a few speakers stand up on Hyde Park corner does not really constitute real change.

This situation is the responsibility of all of us including our Muslim populations, in fact they should be shouting the loudest as they are the ones who stand to suffer the most should the Govt crackdown even further.

So "acting with one voice" when asked by the Govt to help more does NOT mean attack the Govt for sending out this letter saying they have no responsibility to help. They do, we all do but they are closer to the problem than we are so must try and help reduce radicalism and extremisim wherever they find it.





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[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by Nedusa

Really.......?

That'a not the view of millions of non muslims in this Country nor is it the view of the Govt who have become exasperated at the lack of real progress in fighting extremism in this Country.

With the Country on the highest terrorist alert for decades and our security services overstretched trying to foil one potential terrorist attack after another, clearly something is not working.

Having a Muslim cleric go on TV and condemn the latest Islamic terrorist atrocity is expected in fact it is the least that is expected. But where is the real movement for change at grass roots level, where is the openess from the Imams to promote the peacefulness of the Islamic faith.

ED to say, you picked out Speakers Corner as if that's all I said. I'll repeat myself; numerous religious Clerics have voiced their condemnation of radical Islam on TV and on popular online media.

Why are we not seeing massive muslim peace marches all over the Country condemning cold blooded murder in their name.

Having a few speakers stand up on Hyde Park corner does not really constitute real change.

This situation is the responsibility of all of us including our Muslim populations, in fact they should be shouting the loudest as they are the ones who stand to suffer the most should the Govt crackdown even further.

So "acting with one voice" when asked by the Govt to help more does NOT mean attack the Govt for sending out this letter saying they have no responsibility to help. They do, we all do but they are closer to the problem than we are so must try and help reduce radicalism and extremisim wherever they find it.

.

You say its not the view of millions but I beg to differ but then I use political forum groups and avoid the trash tabloids at all costs.

Muslim clerics have been on TV condemning these atrocities. What TV am I watching that these so called millions aren't?

Many Muslims in the UK aren't Sunnis. Just like Christians, there are around 7 off branches of Islam and these branches have no more to do with ISIS beliefs than Christians in fact these other branches of Islam are being killed off on Mass in Syria right now. ISIS hates them more than it hates the west and its these groups who have been very vocal about condemning what the radical Sunnis are doing. Many of them have had a price put on their heads for doing so.

We need to stop blaming the peaceful good Muslims amongst us because right now they are living between hell and a hard place.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

You say its not the view of millions but I beg to differ but then I use political forum groups and avoid the trash tabloids at all costs.

Muslim clerics have been on TV condemning these atrocities. What TV am I watching that these so called millions aren't?

Many Muslims in the UK aren't Sunnis. Just like Christians, there are around 7 off branches of Islam and these branches have no more to do with ISIS beliefs than Christians in fact these other branches of Islam are being killed off on Mass in Syria right now. ISIS hates them more than it hates the west and its these groups who have been very vocal about condemning what the radical Sunnis are doing. Many of them have had a price put on their heads for doing so.

We need to stop blaming the peaceful good Muslims amongst us because right now they are living between hell and a hard place.

But of course to those who don't/ can't / won't differentiate as they're too blinkered will think this letter is a fantastic idea and not insulting in the slightest.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

But of course to those who don't/ can't / won't differentiate as they're too blinkered will think this letter is a fantastic idea and not insulting in the slightest.

The real horror of Islamic Fundamentalist terrorism, and the cost in innocent lives, is beyond any political 'point-scoring'.

'Demolition Red' has said nothing new in the post which you are applauding which has not already been said countless times on here in various threads by myself, Nedusa, Livia, and others, so no one on here is " too blinkered" to "differentiate" between Islamic Fundamentalist terrorists and ordinary Muslims, and it is patently false to infer as much as being the reasons why supporters of the letter in question think it is a "fantastic idea" and why we do not regard it as "insulting in the slightest".

It is a fantastic idea.

The 'moderate', decent, peace-loving, law-abiding, Muslims in this country do need to 'stand up and be counted', do need to distance themselves from the Islamic extremists, do need to protest their outrage at terrorism and to condemn it. They do need to cooperate in every way possible with our Security and Intelligence Services with information or suspicions regarding any members of their communities who they feel may be terrorists or have terrorist sympathies.

The letter is neither ill conceived nor insulting and only those whose sympathies lie elsewhere than with the democratic country which welcomed them and in which they elect to live, will pretend any disgust or insult in response to it.

[Nedusa]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

The real horror of Islamic Fundamentalist terrorism, and the cost in innocent lives, is beyond any political 'point-scoring'.

'Demolition Red' has said nothing new in the post which you are applauding which has not already been said countless times on here in various threads by myself, Nedusa, Livia, and others, so no one on here is " too blinkered" to "differentiate" between Islamic Fundamentalist terrorists and ordinary Muslims, and it is patently false to infer as much as being the reasons why supporters of the letter in question think it is a "fantastic idea" and why we do not regard it as "insulting in the slightest".

It is a fantastic idea.

The 'moderate', decent, peace-loving, law-abiding, Muslims in this country do need to 'stand up and be counted', do need to distance themselves from the Islamic extremists, do need to protest their outrage at terrorism and to condemn it. They do need to cooperate in every way possible with our Security and Intelligence Services with information or suspicions regarding any members of their communities who they feel may be terrorists or have terrorist sympathies.

The letter is neither ill conceived nor insulting and only those whose sympathies lie elsewhere than to the democratic country which welcomed them and in which they elect to live, will pretend any disgust or insult from it.

Totally agree..........why would anyone have a problem with this letter, given what has been and is happening with the growing rise of Islamic extremism and the growing number of terrorist attacks on innocent people, who would NOT want to cooperate in the fullest sense of the word.

Who would not feel outraged at the loss of lives from these attacks, attacks carried out in the name of their Prophet...it beggars belief muslims would not be outraged and would want to demonstrate that outrage at every opportunity.

So to nit pick about how the letter is worded or why do WE have to get a letter is ridiculous and slightly insulting if I am to be honest.

We tiptoe around on eggshells with these so called religious leaders fearful of upsetting their delicate religious sensibilities whilst all around innocent people are being blown/shot or hacked to pieces.

It's time to stand up and be counted and work with the all parties religious and otherwise to find a way forward that alienates and ultimately eradicates these extremist factions.





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[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

The real horror of Islamic Fundamentalist terrorism, and the cost in innocent lives, is beyond any political 'point-scoring'.

'Demolition Red' has said nothing new in the post which you are applauding which has not already been said countless times on here in various threads by myself, Nedusa, Livia, and others, so no one on here is " too blinkered" to "differentiate" between Islamic Fundamentalist terrorists and ordinary Muslims, and it is patently false to infer as much as being the reasons why supporters of the letter in question think it is a "fantastic idea" and why we do not regard it as "insulting in the slightest".

It is a fantastic idea.

The 'moderate', decent, peace-loving, law-abiding, Muslims in this country do need to 'stand up and be counted', do need to distance themselves from the Islamic extremists, do need to protest their outrage at terrorism and to condemn it. They do need to cooperate in every way possible with our Security and Intelligence Services with information or suspicions regarding any members of their communities who they feel may be terrorists or have terrorist sympathies.

The letter is neither ill conceived nor insulting and only those whose sympathies lie elsewhere than with the democratic country which welcomed them and in which they elect to live, will pretend any disgust or insult in response to it.

See, this is my point do you in all seriousness think that this letter is the first line in reaching out to Muslim leaders?
We were given a discussion on this topic during my studies in 2010...it's not a new thing it has been part and parcel of counter terrorism for years.
Did Pickles don his cape to save the day? No he did not he just perpetuated the myth that Mosques are full of terrorists.

Objectives
The strategy now contains three objectives, these are to:

respond to the ideological challenge of terrorism and the threat from those who promote it
prevent people from being drawn into terrorism and ensure that they are given appropriate advice and support
work with sectors and institutions where there are risks of radicalisation that we need to address
https://www.gov.uk/government/public...-strategy-2011

The scope of this revised CONTEST strategy has been broadened to cover all forms of terrorism.

Our counter-terrorism strategy will continue to be organised around 4 workstreams, each comprising a number of key objectives

Pursue: to stop terrorist attacks
Prevent: to stop people becoming terrorists or supporting terrorism
Protect: to strengthen our protection against a terrorist attack
Prepare: to mitigate the impact of a terrorist attack

https://www.gov.uk/government/public...rategy-contest

[kirklancaster]

Quote=Kizzy;7510289]"See, this is my point do you in all seriousness think that this letter is the first line in reaching out to Muslim leaders?"


No one said that it was the very first initiative "in reaching out to Muslim Leaders", but 'another' attempt is better than no attempt at all.

"We were given a discussion on this topic during my studies in 2010...it's not a new thing it has been part and parcel of counter terrorism for years.
Did Pickles don his cape to save the day? No he did not he just perpetuated the myth that Mosques are full of terrorists."


This actually confirms that Nedusa is actually correct in both her assertions, and her assumptions, because it means that despite the UK government consistently making appeals to the ordinary, moderate UK Muslim communities and their leaders, in attempt to persuade them to condemn the Islamic Extremists and to help our Security and Intelligence Services to defeat terrorism by cooperating with information, here they are still trying 6 years later. One can assume then, that such government pleas has continued to fall on deaf ears or on Muslims unwilling to listen.

No - Pickles did not "don" any "cape to save the day", he merely tried to take the initiative to try to appeal to any moderate Muslims to help totry to "save the day" -- along with trying to save innocent lives, and billions of pounds worth of further needless destruction to various countries, and, indeed, trying to save this country and every other democratic country from eventually succumbing to escalating terrorism and ultimately being 'Islamified' as a consequence.

In addition, no one on here has ever stated or inferred that "Mosques are full of terrorists." and I have never seen it expressed anywhere by any intelligent and sane person.

However, it is a fact that all the demonic Islamic Terrorists who have hailed from the UK - including the murderers of poor Lee Rigby and Jihadi John - were, by nature of being Muslim, part of the UK Muslim community, and, by nature of being 'extremely' devout, were part of the congregation of UK Mosques. Therefore, while it is obviously ludicrous to state that UK "Mosques are full of terrorists", it is equally as ludicrous to suggest that there are definitely no terrorists residing among the UK Muslim communities and no terrorists attending some UK Mosques.

Quite clearly there are. Which exonerates Pickles and validates the need for his letter.

"Objectives
The strategy now contains three objectives, these are to:

respond to the ideological challenge of terrorism and the threat from those who promote it
prevent people from being drawn into terrorism and ensure that they are given appropriate advice and support
work with sectors and institutions where there are risks of radicalisation that we need to address
https://www.gov.uk/government/public...-strategy-2011"

Where does Pickles' initiative not dovetail into the above categories?

Is he not trying to respond to the challenge of terrorism and the threat from those who promote it?

Is he not stressing the need to educate Muslims against being 'radicalised' and advocating better education on terrorism to prevent them being 'drawn in' to it?

Are not the many Muslim areas of the UK and Mosques indeed "sectors and institutions" where there are risks of radicalisation that we need to address?

"The scope of this revised CONTEST strategy has been broadened to cover all forms of terrorism.

Our counter-terrorism strategy will continue to be organised around 4 workstreams, each comprising a number of key objectives

Pursue: to stop terrorist attacks
Prevent: to stop people becoming terrorists or supporting terrorism
Protect: to strengthen our protection against a terrorist attack
Prepare: to mitigate the impact of a terrorist attack

https://www.gov.uk/government/public...rategy-contest"
[/B]

With respect; Pickles' letter again falls squarely within the parameters of the above brief.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Nedusa

Really.......?

That'a not the view of millions of non muslims in this Country nor is it the view of the Govt who have become exasperated at the lack of real progress in fighting extremism in this Country.

With the Country on the highest terrorist alert for decades and our security services overstretched trying to foil one potential terrorist attack after another, clearly something is not working.

Having a Muslim cleric go on TV and condemn the latest Islamic terrorist atrocity is expected in fact it is the least that is expected. But where is the real movement for change at grass roots level, where is the openess from the Imams to promote the peacefulness of the Islamic faith.

Why are we not seeing massive muslim peace marches all over the Country condemning cold blooded murder in their name.

Having a few speakers stand up on Hyde Park corner does not really constitute real change.

This situation is the responsibility of all of us including our Muslim populations, in fact they should be shouting the loudest as they are the ones who stand to suffer the most should the Govt crackdown even further.

So "acting with one voice" when asked by the Govt to help more does NOT mean attack the Govt for sending out this letter saying they have no responsibility to help. They do, we all do but they are closer to the problem than we are so must try and help reduce radicalism and extremisim wherever they find it.

.