[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Nedusa

Jehovah's witnesses are like Christianity but far more right wing, they take the bible very seriously and translate it into literal terms.

They take their religion very seriously , it is 60 % Christianity , 30 % Judaism and 10% Delusional disorder.

[the truth]

Originally Posted by Mokkajava

OMG... well it started in elementary school with the me being the only child in my class that had never taken first communion up until I left the catholic system for public school in Secondary education...

Then when I was in secondary ed... a number of my friends attended a church youth group... so I went along at first and every time I attended I was given the "speech" about accepting Christ or go to hell etc.. etc..

My young mind fell victim and then it became not enough to be a believer but now we were indoctrinated into converting our friends and going out on missionary trips to save the others...

And now, I spend my time deflecting the inlaws from programming my children in this same manner by arming them with general facts about all religions and a sense of self awareness that they don't need a god to save them because they are not guilty, or automatically sinful just for breathing.

Aside from that.... yeah Jehovah's Witnesses

Originally Posted by Mokkajava

OMG... well it started in elementary school with the me being the only child in my class that had never taken first communion up until I left the catholic system for public school in Secondary education...

Then when I was in secondary ed... a number of my friends attended a church youth group... so I went along at first and every time I attended I was given the "speech" about accepting Christ or go to hell etc.. etc..

My young mind fell victim and then it became not enough to be a believer but now we were indoctrinated into converting our friends and going out on missionary trips to save the others...

And now, I spend my time deflecting the inlaws from programming my children in this same manner by arming them with general facts about all religions and a sense of self awareness that they don't need a god to save them because they are not guilty, or automatically sinful just for breathing.

Aside from that.... yeah Jehovah's Witnesses

wow you went to a Christian church and they spoke about Christianity , amazing anecdote....and you've NEVER heard atheists being our and aggressive with their views in public? what biased drivel. and those nasty missionaries going round the world feeding the starving in wartorn countries clothing the impoverished raising billions for the poorest sickest most vulnerable people in the world...horrible people...

.no Christian has tried to convert me outside any Church in 20 years , ive had 1 jehovas knock my door and they were perfectly polite...the atheists on here and across the internet shout their abusive hate from the rooftops they demand cheap attention with their often loud aggressive abusive foul mouthed aggressive rants , usually utterly disrespectful to all people with different views and totally intolerant of the fact other people have different beliefs...weve seen where this radical liberalism takes us....it sees radical liberals making themselves Gods making their own rules up and demanding everyone agrees with them or else they get called nasty racist sexist bigots....pathetic.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by the truth

wow you went to a Christian church and they spoke about Christianity , amazing anecdote....and you've NEVER heard atheists being our and aggressive with their views in public? what biased drivel. and those nasty missionaries going round the world feeding the starving in wartorn countries clothing the impoverished raising billions for the poorest sickest most vulnerable people in the world...horrible people...

.no Christian has tried to convert me outside any Church in 20 years , ive had 1 jehovas knock my door and they were perfectly polite...the atheists on here and across the internet shout their abusive hate from the rooftops they demand cheap attention with their often loud aggressive abusive foul mouthed aggressive rants , usually utterly disrespectful to all people with different views and totally intolerant of the fact other people have different beliefs...weve seen where this radical liberalism takes us....it sees radical liberals making themselves Gods making their own rules up and demanding everyone agrees with them or else they get called nasty racist sexist bigots....pathetic.

Why ask others for their experiences then rubbish them and give your own perspective?

[Mokka]

Originally Posted by the truth

wow you went to a Christian church and they spoke about Christianity , amazing anecdote....and you've NEVER heard atheists being our and aggressive with their views in public? what biased drivel. and those nasty missionaries going round the world feeding the starving in wartorn countries clothing the impoverished raising billions for the poorest sickest most vulnerable people in the world...horrible people...

.no Christian has tried to convert me outside any Church in 20 years , ive had 1 jehovas knock my door and they were perfectly polite...the atheists on here and across the internet shout their abusive hate from the rooftops they demand cheap attention with their often loud aggressive abusive foul mouthed aggressive rants , usually utterly disrespectful to all people with different views and totally intolerant of the fact other people have different beliefs...weve seen where this radical liberalism takes us....it sees radical liberals making themselves Gods making their own rules up and demanding everyone agrees with them or else they get called nasty racist sexist bigots....pathetic.

Wow you are a hardened sort aren't you... and aggressive!

Well as a youth it was framed as a fun place with games and ski trips etc. to hang out at, and the events were not all in a church nor were they apart of a church service, but the conversion tactics were there from the off.

And I don't consider myself particularly bias, I am not a christian now no... but I have been in all the christian circles on my side of the world... even to Bible College for a year and on mission trips ( but I won't go into how they really did not provide help to those they looked down upon)... and I was able to form my own opinion over time.

And of course your going to come across all sorts of aggressive belief patterns on the internet in a chat forum... cause that is where the atheists and the zealots like you will go to spout their propaganda. You honestly think your language and tactics are any better than those you bemoan then you are delusional.

I won't be responding to any more of your posts

[smudgie]

Originally Posted by Josy

Everyones own religion is true to them, that's all that matters.

You beat me to it.

Everyone's own belief is their truth, even if you are an atheist.

[Kizzy]

Amen to that

[user104658]

Originally Posted by the truth

the atheists on here and across the internet shout their abusive hate from the rooftops they demand cheap attention with their often loud aggressive abusive foul mouthed aggressive rants , usually utterly disrespectful to all people with different views and totally intolerant of the fact other people have different beliefs...weve seen where this radical liberalism takes us....it sees radical liberals making themselves Gods making their own rules up and demanding everyone agrees with them or else they get called nasty racist sexist bigots....pathetic.

And on the 8th day God created great hypocrisy, and he put it on a place called TiBBy, and in his infinite love of irony, he called it "the truth".


P.s. If you have genuinely only had one Jehovah's Witness at your door in decades, you need to share your secret. A large dog, perhaps? Landmines?

[Crimson Dynamo]

I think the fact that religion historically has had a position of power and respect and the fact that it is now dwindling to the point of extinction in the UK religionists now feel threatened when anyone dares to question their "faith" or belief with no evidence.

50 years ago if you were very religious people respected you and it gave you status in your community, now it probably has the reverse role.

Thus we get the truths line about aggressive atheists and the like, its a common theme - indeed Dawkins, who is a mild mannered and thoughtful chap gets all this biollocks thrown at him!

[Nedusa]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

I think the fact that religion historically has had a position of power and respect and the fact that it is now dwindling to the point of extinction in the UK religionists now feel threatened when anyone dares to question their "faith" or belief with no evidence.

50 years ago if you were very religious people respected you and it gave you status in your community, now it probably has the reverse role.

Thus we get the truths line about aggressive atheists and the like, its a common theme - indeed Dawkins, who is a mild mannered and thoughtful chap gets all this biollocks thrown at him!

I think Religion mirrors the mood of the times or the Zeitgeist, it changes to suit the prevailing mindset. I think large organised Christian Churches like the C of E/Methodist or the Catholic Church have seen falling attendences over the past 30 years but this has been to some extent balanced by the growth in newer more modern churches like the Baptist or Evangelical movements especially with the incease in TV Religious Channels.

I think more people are experiencing their faith on a more personal level so have less desire to trek to a building which may be miles away.

Also the change in perception of Atheism has encouraged more people to openly state they have Atheist or even Anti-Theist views, and who can blame them when they look around at the murderous crimes committed in the name of Deities.

As for Mr Dawkins who is a confirmed Anti-Theist along with the likes of Stephen Fry, well he is entitled to his opinion as long as he doesn't try and ram it down everybody's throat.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by Nedusa

I think Religion mirrors the mood of the times or the Zeitgeist, it changes to suit the prevailing mindset. I think large organised Christian Churches like the C of E/Methodist or the Catholic Church have seen falling attendences over the past 30 years but this has been to some extent balanced by the growth in newer more modern churches like the Baptist or Evangelical movements especially with the incease in TV Religious Channels.

I think more people are experiencing their faith on a more personal level so have less desire to trek to a building which may be miles away.

Also the change in perception of Atheism has encouraged more people to openly state they have Atheist or even Anti-Theist views, and who can blame them when they look around at the murderous crimes committed in the name of Deities.

As for Mr Dawkins who is a confirmed Anti-Theist along with the likes of Stephen Fry, well he is entitled to his opinion as long as he doesn't try and ram it down everybody's throat.

The so called growth of the pentecostal churches etc is more a reflection of immigration to the main cities than anything.

Dawkins does not ram anything but he does get an awful lot of media calls and invites so that is just a media perception than a reality.

As for religious channels, have you watched any?

if that is the future of religion then its doomed, doomed I tells ya

Youtube video

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Nedusa

Also the change in perception of Atheism has encouraged more people to openly state they have Atheist or even Anti-Theist views, and who can blame them when they look around at the murderous crimes committed in the name of Deities.

I actually totally agree with that - I suspect that atheism (and certainly non-religion, plenty believe in an unknowable god / creator but not in any sort of religion or church) is not "on the rise" quite as much as it seems - rather, 50 or 60 years ago it would have been viewed as "odd" or even "shameful" not to be a churchgoing Christian, especially in small communities, non-religious families would have found themselves excluded from a lot of the town's social activities, which would have been church-based. Even when I was in primary school (20 - 25 years ago) a LOT of community activity in the village I lived in centered on the church. I think a lot of people who questioned their religion, or even flat out didn't believe in any of it, would have played along simply because that was "the norm", and people generally don't like to stand up and be "different".

I know that my grandfather on my mum's side (I never knew him, he died before I was born) certainly fell into that category. My mum told me that, when she was an adult, he had confessed in a conversation with her that he wasn't a believer at all. However, he was the headmaster of a high school (parents would probably have burned him at the stake) and my grandmother WAS religious (he told my mum to never ever mention what he had said) and so, he dressed up and attended church every Sunday for most of his life.

[Nedusa]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

The so called growth of the pentecostal churches etc is more a reflection of immigration to the main cities than anything.

Dawkins does not ram anything but he does get an awful lot of media calls and invites so that is just a media perception than a reality.

As for religious channels, have you watched any?

if that is the future of religion then its doomed, doomed I tells ya

Youtube video

I've often joked on that in hundreds of years time religion will be looked on by the peoples of the day as a kind of prevailing mass phobia brought on by ignorance and fear , due to lack of understanding of their place and position in the Universe.

There will be religious museums where the history of religion can be shown, and the peoples of the day will look back in slight horror at all the death and destruction this irrational phobia caused for centuries until slowly people evolved become more connected and enlightened and realised they did not need to cling to strange beliefs in invisible people living in the clouds.

I wonder how far away that day actually is.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by Nedusa

I've often joked on that in hundreds of years time religion will be looked on by the peoples of the day as a kind of prevailing mass phobia brought on by ignorance and fear , due to lack of understanding of their place and position in the Universe.

There will be religious museums where the history of religion can be shown, and the peoples of the day will look back in slight horror at all the death and destruction this irrational phobia caused for centuries until slowly people evolved become more connected and enlightened and realised they did not need to cling to strange beliefs in invisible people living in the clouds.

I wonder how far away that day actually is.

The power of what your parents tell you is indeed a wonder.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Nedusa

I've often joked on that in hundreds of years time religion will be looked on by the peoples of the day as a kind of prevailing mass phobia brought on by ignorance and fear , due to lack of understanding of their place and position in the Universe.

There will be religious museums where the history of religion can be shown, and the peoples of the day will look back in slight horror at all the death and destruction this irrational phobia caused for centuries until slowly people evolved become more connected and enlightened and realised they did not need to cling to strange beliefs in invisible people living in the clouds.

.................. .........

[Nedusa]

was kinda hoping for a bit more comment than a one line quip and a shocked emoticon...????

how long do you think religion will survive.....

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by Nedusa

was kinda hoping for a bit more comment than a one line quip and a shocked emoticon...????

how long do you think religion will survive.....

Ignorance and a lack of education seems to survive a long time but the trend is as education increases superstition decreases.

The first thing that needs to happen is the USA needs to face up to its atheism a bit more and a President needs to admit to being one too.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

I think the fact that religion historically has had a position of power and respect and the fact that it is now dwindling to the point of extinction in the UK religionists now feel threatened when anyone dares to question their "faith" or belief with no evidence.

50 years ago if you were very religious people respected you and it gave you status in your community, now it probably has the reverse role.

Thus we get the truths line about aggressive atheists and the like, its a common theme - indeed Dawkins, who is a mild mannered and thoughtful chap gets all this biollocks thrown at him!

Many years ago, in all ancient societies, the only way to acquire knowledge was by personal experience. This meant that the wisest members of such societies were invariably the oldest members, which in turn led to the formation of 'Council of Elders' or similar bodies.

Among other duties, the Council of Elders were available for younger citizens with problems, to consult with to receive advice, which led to a long tradition of the aged members of every society being the most respected by other members - especially the young.

As civilization has 'progressed' and become increasingly more technologically advanced, young people now have access to more knowledge at the touch of a button than one million old people (who mainly do not understand such technology) could ever acquire in a million lifetimes each.

This is one of the reasons why (even subconsciously) old people are increasingly no longer respected by a lot of young people - though there are, of course, many other reasons - and this is fair enough; the young now 'know it all'.

It is exactly the same with religion. Scientific advances and increasing technological knowledge now increasingly persuades that God cannot exist, so religion and people of faith are increasingly no longer respected by a lot of others - which is fair enough; modern man now 'knows it all'.

A lack of respect is one thing if it remains just that - live and let live, amicable agreement to differ - but unfortunately, it often does not 'remain just that' and increasingly, some young people do not only not 'respect' old people, but perceive them as weak, defenseless and legitimate targets to bully, intimidate, beat, rob, and murder.

Similarly, where religion and people of faith are concerned, some people who do not believe - armed by their 'scientific knowledge and convinced of the absolute truth of atheism - perceive believers, no matter how moderate, as legitimate targets to bully, intimidate and verbally assault.

The truth of this can be evidenced on various threads on this forum, where the sheer vehemence of some anti-religious posts is both irrational and unwarranted.

There really is no need. I personally could not give a hoot what someone believes or does not believe, or what their reasons are, because I believe in live and let live, and we are all entitled to our own personal views and opinions. Yet, where I have been drawn into discussions on religion, I have often been subjected to 'over the top' abusive counters and been repeatedly forced into a 'defensive' or even 'apologetic' stance, despite the fact that I have always tried to discuss civilly and in a non-confrontational manner.

Science is not always right. Einstein redefined Newtons 'Laws', and new scientific discoveries are constantly proving the lie of other scientific 'laws' which we once regarded as absolutes.

Dawkins' book is riddled with fallacies, inconsistencies and contradictions, and - in my opinion - it takes a greater 'leap of faith' to accept it in its entirety, than it does to accept the Judeo Christian Bible wholly literally.

I do not mind humour - even when directed at me or my faith - but there is a vast difference between gentle fun and 'herd instinct' mockery and ridicule from multiple people.

I would love to write a comprehensive post on the very many logical reasons behind my decision to become a (non-orthodox) Christian, but I just know that instead of rational debate and discussion, it would descend into the usual melee.

Anyway, in my opinion, 'The Truth' is correct in a lot of his complaints, though I agree that he can sometimes be perceived as being a tad extreme in some of his assertions, but perhaps that may be because he has become 'conditioned' by constantly being met with extremism from those who he has previously debated with.

Incidentally L.T. and picking up on another post of yours; Barack Obama is not an atheist - he is a devout Muslim.

[Northern Monkey]

Imo,They are all as true as each other......

[Northern Monkey]

Originally Posted by Nedusa

I've often joked on that in hundreds of years time religion will be looked on by the peoples of the day as a kind of prevailing mass phobia brought on by ignorance and fear , due to lack of understanding of their place and position in the Universe.

There will be religious museums where the history of religion can be shown, and the peoples of the day will look back in slight horror at all the death and destruction this irrational phobia caused for centuries until slowly people evolved become more connected and enlightened and realised they did not need to cling to strange beliefs in invisible people living in the clouds.

I wonder how far away that day actually is.

I also think this will be the case.
The religions of today will be looked back upon as we look on the religions of ancient Egypt and Greece and Rome.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Nedusa

was kinda hoping for a bit more comment than a one line quip and a shocked emoticon...????

how long do you think religion will survive.....

My emoticons represented a thousand words! The shocked emoticon was to represent my fear for your safety after stating such things. The latter emoticon, because I dream of the world that you imagine in that post. My problem isn't with religion, or the religious, you see... it's more what the entire concept represents. People who are fearful and want to be "told" and "comforted" rather than to think and wonder and just be amazed by the Universe and all of its mystery. And a world where people need a reason, or bribery (heaven) or blackmail (hell) or an instruction manual to be good and moral people instead of just being good and moral people because they want to be and because it is right and fair.

I dream of a world where people don't need a book or preachers or anything other than their own philosophies and imaginations to be good, and to be inspired.


Sadly, I don't think there will ever be a day where that happens entirely. I think mass religion will be around for a long time to come - although I guess maybe not in terms of the entirity of human history. Maybe 500 years? However, I think for as long as there are humans, there will be pockets of religion. Most likely viewed by most as strange cultists. Some people seem to need (completely) that direction and instruction, those predefined safety nets to fall back on. People offering "answers", eternal life and salvation will always be able to find someone to follow them. Because the Universe is too impossibly complex and multi-layered for us humans to ever know or understand... and some people are just not ok with that uncertainty. They want to know, they want an answer, they want "it's God".

[Crimson Dynamo]

Lol Obama is not a Muslim

He is a closeted atheist if anything

[user104658]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

He is a closeted atheist if anything

The majority of World Leaders are / have been for centuries, in my opinion.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

The majority of World Leaders are / have been for centuries, in my opinion.

Agree with that

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

Lol Obama is not a Muslim

He is a closeted atheist if anything

He is Muslim by birth, upbringing, and belief. There is no doubt there.

[Nedusa]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

My emoticons represented a thousand words! The shocked emoticon was to represent my fear for your safety after stating such things. The latter emoticon, because I dream of the world that you imagine in that post. My problem isn't with religion, or the religious, you see... it's more what the entire concept represents. People who are fearful and want to be "told" and "comforted" rather than to think and wonder and just be amazed by the Universe and all of its mystery. And a world where people need a reason, or bribery (heaven) or blackmail (hell) or an instruction manual to be good and moral people instead of just being good and moral people because they want to be and because it is right and fair.

I dream of a world where people don't need a book or preachers or anything other than their own philosophies and imaginations to be good, and to be inspired.


Sadly, I don't think there will ever be a day where that happens entirely. I think mass religion will be around for a long time to come - although I guess maybe not in terms of the entirity of human history. Maybe 500 years? However, I think for as long as there are humans, there will be pockets of religion. Most likely viewed by most as strange cultists. Some people seem to need (completely) that direction and instruction, those predefined safety nets to fall back on. People offering "answers", eternal life and salvation will always be able to find someone to follow them. Because the Universe is too impossibly complex and multi-layered for us humans to ever know or understand... and some people are just not ok with that uncertainty. They want to know, they want an answer, they want "it's God".

Good Reply T.S........you speak a lot of sense, I too think people should take responsibility for their own existance and not look to delegate that responsibilty to people that peddle easy answers or solutions or promises of heavenly comforts.

We are all intelligent enough, evolved enough to understand that,as you say the Universe is multi layered and eternal and as such to assign such a marvellous thing to the work of a "God" is slightly defeatist and insulting to the Universe.

If religion is to survive it has to be transformed into a more of a belief in the cosmos and our place in it , what our place is and how we connect with the Universe and with each other. Not imagining we will all go to a place in the clouds and have all our desires granted where we will live on into eternity with our Creator....???? I mean with repect that is a lot of nonsense isn't it ?

I'm not anti religion per se but have issues with organised beliefs that connect us and control us more through a sense of fear and dread of the unknown.