[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Scrooge

if IS have their way they will represent all ISlam

that is rather the point of them

Exactly. These mongrels are wholeheartedly committed to speaking on behalf of, and representing all of Islam, whether 'all of Islam' want them to or not.

As you say , if they get their way - the rest of Islam's wishes, opinions and rights will be as irrelevant to these terrorist turds as ours will .

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by arista

Typical Self Serving American Attitude

Drones are Murdering loads
of familys near to the USA picked target

America is as Evil
as Isis

Fecking Fact

What?????????????????????????????????????????????? ???????????? Come on Arista.

Thank feck for America, God bless her, and long may she exist. Without her we would already be living under the 'Third Reich' and have Nazi storm-troopers jackboots marching up and down the Mall or worse.

There is absolutely no way that genuine, unavoidable collateral damage in warfare could ever be compared to the inhuman, deliberate, slaughter of helpless innocent human beings by these insane, inhuman, devils.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

What?????????????????????????????????????????????? ???????????? Come on Arista.

Thank feck for America, God bless her, and long may she exist. Without her we would already be living under the 'Third Reich' and have Nazi storm-troopers jackboots marching up and down the Mall or worse.

There is absolutely no way that genuine, unavoidable collateral damage in warfare could ever be compared to the inhuman, deliberate, slaughter of helpless innocent human beings by these insane, inhuman, devils.

There's not much point mentioning ww2, the United States post-cold war is not the same country as the WW2 United States. The American people (most of them, anyway) are not as twisted as the people over there but, then, they don't live in a perpetual war zone. The politics of the US are putrid. The uncomfortable fact is, as awful as ISIS is, as much as they need to be stopped, without the modern United States, ISIS simply wouldn't exist.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

There's not much point mentioning ww2, the United States post-cold war is not the same country as the WW2 United States. The American people (most of them, anyway) are not as twisted as the people over there but, then, they don't live in a perpetual war zone. The politics of the US are putrid. The uncomfortable fact is, as awful as ISIS is, as much as they need to be stopped, without the modern United States, ISIS simply wouldn't exist.

No country is the same as 60 years ago, no people are - the world has degenerated, but the fact remains that America were our allies in WW2 and still are now. Europe? Don't make me laugh. The floods of Eastern European immigrants into this country are overwhelmingly Muslim and detest us, the 'active' forces in Europe are Islamic and detest us and the 'Silent and Passive' majority are irrelevant.

I stand back in amazement at how much anti-American and Anti-Israeli bile is spewed in this country, but I know firmly where I align myself.

Just for my education T.S. - please explain to me just 'how' the 'modern United States' created ISIS?

[Nedusa]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

There's not much point mentioning ww2, the United States post-cold war is not the same country as the WW2 United States. The American people (most of them, anyway) are not as twisted as the people over there but, then, they don't live in a perpetual war zone. The politics of the US are putrid. The uncomfortable fact is, as awful as ISIS is, as much as they need to be stopped, without the modern United States, ISIS simply wouldn't exist.

I agree the politics of the US are putrid, corruption at all levels dressed up as lobbying, Capitalism run riot. A country where dog eats dog and fcuk everyone else. A Country where nobody really gives a sh it about anyone.

But the worst part is at the top where you would expect to see honestly and integrity but there is none, just individual greed and self interest.

Appeasing the Multi National Corporations by allowing the most ridulous laws to be passed, laws that allow human faeces to be present in their food, their water to be contaminated, most of the population to be fed pills like smarties.

But more worrying is that the US to try and stay ahead of the game and keep the mirage of world Hegemony alive, have to start War after War and destabilise Country after Country in the name of bringing "democracy" to Countries that he lived peacefully for thousands of years.

Sometime the sheer arrogance of the US takes my breath away...!!!!

So, Yes the US now is but a shadow of it's former self, Capitalism,Big Business and individual greed is destroying this once great Country from within.

Painful to watch....

[user104658]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

Just for my education T.S. - please explain to me just 'how' the 'modern United States' created ISIS?

Err... Operation Cyclone?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Cyclone

The CIA arming / using populations in the Middle East to further their interests. After that conflict was over those populations of newly-armed killers were then abandonned, with guns in hand (and a nice stockpile of soviet weapons to boot, plenty of nice durable AK's) and many of them went on to form the basis of both al Qaida and the Taliban plus many other smaller radical Islamist organisations. Organisations (not to mention, warmongering attitudes) that are the roots of ISIS.

Without the United States and the Soviet Union and their power struggles, ISIS would not have happened. They wouldn't have been armed, and more importantly, they wouldn't have had generations raised in conflict to become twisted and bloodthirsty.

Let's have 40 years of perpetual warfare and death in the continental United States, and THEN have a look at how "civilized" the population there is.

We in the western world are more empathic and more civilized because, frankly, our lives are really ****ing easy. Now, I'm not complaining about that, I like the fact that my life is relatively comfortable. I also understand that it's not logistically possible for everyone in the world to have lives that are as comfortable. I'm not losing sleep or tears over dusty foreign countries. I'm also not excusing barbarism in the Middle East or saying that the people responsible shouldn't be punished or just plain wiped out... because they can't be "fixed" at this point.

I just like spades to be called spades... and I think it's a bit ridiculous to sit in our warm comfortable homes condemning the barbaric war psychology of people who have known nothing but war, death and cultural violence. They are not "evil", they are broken, completely and irreparably broken to the point that, yes, most of them probably need "putting down". But the west played a huge part in creating violence that in turn spawned these people. The least we can do is offer up an audible "oops!" as we bomb them into the dirt. Sitting around on morality perches vomitting over how incomprehensibly ruthless they are, when we have not even the slightest concept of what a life like that looks like, is just a bit... distasteful.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Nedusa

So, Yes the US now is but a shadow of it's former self, Capitalism,Big Business and individual greed is destroying this once great Country from within.

Painful to watch....

I often feel like that. If you look at the ideals of American independence and what they were fighting for when they broke away from the Empires, the principles of freedom and fairness and "justice for all" that it was founded on, it was truly inspiring. If the people who fought for that could see what became of their dream, what would that feel like? I can't even imagine. Seems inevitable now, though... a dream like that on such a scale was never going to work. Certain people were always going to wreck it with their greed and their lust for power. It's a history that's been repeating itself since the very first ancient civilizations.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I often feel like that. If you look at the ideals of American independence and what they were fighting for when they broke away from the Empires, the principles of freedom and fairness and "justice for all" that it was founded on, it was truly inspiring. If the people who fought for that could see what became of their dream, what would that feel like? I can't even imagine. Seems inevitable now, though... a dream like that on such a scale was never going to work. Certain people were always going to wreck it with their greed and their lust for power. It's a history that's been repeating itself since the very first ancient civilizations.

Aint that the truth, humans are too flawed to have a completely fair society like that, money and power will always corrupt those at the top

[Nedusa]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Err... Operation Cyclone?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Cyclone

The CIA arming / using populations in the Middle East to further their interests. After that conflict was over those populations of newly-armed killers were then abandonned, with guns in hand (and a nice stockpile of soviet weapons to boot, plenty of nice durable AK's) and many of them went on to form the basis of both al Qaida and the Taliban plus many other smaller radical Islamist organisations. Organisations (not to mention, warmongering attitudes) that are the roots of ISIS.

Without the United States and the Soviet Union and their power struggles, ISIS would not have happened. They wouldn't have been armed, and more importantly, they wouldn't have had generations raised in conflict to become twisted and bloodthirsty.

Let's have 40 years of perpetual warfare and death in the continental United States, and THEN have a look at how "civilized" the population there is.

We in the western world are more empathic and more civilized because, frankly, our lives are really ****ing easy. Now, I'm not complaining about that, I like the fact that my life is relatively comfortable. I also understand that it's not logistically possible for everyone in the world to have lives that are as comfortable. I'm not losing sleep or tears over dusty foreign countries. I'm also not excusing barbarism in the Middle East or saying that the people responsible shouldn't be punished or just plain wiped out... because they can't be "fixed" at this point.

I just like spades to be called spades... and I think it's a bit ridiculous to sit in our warm comfortable homes condemning the barbaric war psychology of people who have known nothing but war, death and cultural violence. They are not "evil", they are broken, completely and irreparably broken to the point that, yes, most of them probably need "putting down". But the west played a huge part in creating violence that in turn spawned these people. The least we can do is offer up an audible "oops!" as we bomb them into the dirt. Sitting around on morality perches vomitting over how incomprehensibly ruthless they are, when we have not even the slightest concept of what a life like that looks like, is just a bit... distasteful.

Sorry No....... I don't buy this excuse

Evil is as evil does.... These people are subhuman vermin who practise their evil,savage murderous acts on every occasion they can find.

They subject mostly innocent people who have also been "broken" by the West as you put it, to the most painful and savage deaths imaginable protected by their so called religious masters.

Regardless of what conditions they have been made to endure, they are evil subhuman pieces of excrement that need gassing on a large scale since they have no human value whatsoever.

So please stop with the appeasement, and face up to evil in our midst.




.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Nedusa

Sorry No....... I don't buy this excuse

Evil is as evil does.... These people are subhuman vermin who practise their evil,savage murderous acts on every occasion they can find.

They subject mostly innocent people who have also been "broken" by the West as you put it, to the most painful and savage deaths imaginable protected by their so called religious masters.

Regardless of what conditions they have been made to endure, they are evil subhuman pieces of excrement that need gassing on a large scale since they have no human value whatsoever.

So please stop with the appeasement, and face up to evil in our midst.




.

I did say that they are irreparably broken, dangerous, vicious and need to be eradicated. I'm not appeasing. I'm not saying that they should be allowed to continue to hurt and maim - any more than a dancing bear driven wild by mistreatment should be allowed to rampage down a street killing innocent people. No. It is broken, it is wild, it is dangerous and it needs to be shot in the head. However, failing to realise that there ARE reasons that a large group of people might become so psychotic as to want to murder hordes of innocent people is a massive oversight. How do we stop groups like this from arising again if we don't bother to look at what happened in the first place?

I don't believe in "evil". I don't believe in God, Satan, Heaven or Hell and for me, the concepts of "Good and Evil" belong in fairy tales. There are barbaric people, there are vicious people, of course they are DANGEROUS people, of course they are of no use to the world and should be removed from it if at all possible, but there are always identifiable reasons in individual and group psychology for these people being so ****ed up. Sometimes it may even seem like a person is "born evil", but there's almost always a demonstrable abnormality with their brain or development that accounts for them not thinking or behaving like a "normal person". Should they be removed from the face of the earth? If they are dangerous, YES. A reason is not an "excuse".

[lostalex]

Originally Posted by arista

Typical Self Serving American Attitude


Drones are Murdering loads
of familys near to the USA picked target


America is as Evil
as Isis

Fecking Fact

actually it's not a fact. America has never TARGETTED INNOCENT civilians. ISIS does target innocents on purpose.

No country does more to prevent innocent casualties in war than Americans. America is the least evil country in the history of the world.

[kirklancaster]

QUOTE: Toy Soldier;7414561]Err... Operation Cyclone?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Cyclone

My question wasn’t rhetorical T.S, but wasn’t posed purely from a position of ignorance either, as I am aware of ‘Operation Cyclone’. I just was puzzled as to how you conclude – despite American involvement in Afghanistan – that America created ISIS. I see now however, that you are not alone in your contention and that the internet has others of the same opinion.

I still strongly disagree and believe such an allegation to be an ill conceived, over simplification, hailing chiefly from sources which have hidden personal agendas – though I am not accusing you of such.

“The CIA arming / using populations in the Middle East to further their interests. After that conflict was over those populations of newly-armed killers were then abandonned, with guns in hand (and a nice stockpile of soviet weapons to boot, plenty of nice durable AK's) and many of them went on to form the basis of both al Qaida and the Taliban plus many other smaller radical Islamist organisations. Organisations (not to mention, warmongering attitudes) that are the roots of ISIS.”


Yes, the above is essentially true, but American intervention – both covert and overt - in the internal political affairs of foreign countries, dates back almost 100 years to the time of the 1917 Bolshevik Revolution in Russia, when it supported the ‘White Russian’ anti-Bolsheviks in a failed bid to halt perceived communism in its tracks.

Although the defeated anti-Bolsheviks scattered and went into exile throughout the world, and although they established various organisations from bases in their new countries which included some ‘terrorism’ (or ‘guerrilla warfare’ as it was then known) among its aims, here, any similarities with ISIS ends, because the only objective of these ‘White Russians’ was simply to retake Russia, oust the Communist regime, and restore Imperialism.

Unlike ISIS, they had no desire to impose Russian Orthodox Christianity on the indigenous people of the countries it conquered as part of any World Domination plan.

But were the ‘White Russians’ aided and abetted by the USA? Yes.
Did American money, arms, resources, and its continued support of the ‘White Russians’ even in defeat, strengthen them? Yes.
Did such American aid increase the longevity of the ‘White Russian’ Movement? Yes, but nominally.
Would the various organisations formed by the ‘White Russian Movement’ whilst in exile still have evolved without any type of American sustenance of the ‘White Russians’ Yes, most definitely.
So were the ‘White Russians’ and its subsequent offshoot organisations, ‘created by the USA? No, definitely not.

Without resorting to 200 pages on World History (which I'm certain you are aware of anyway)there are numerous examples of American intervention – both covert and overt - in the internal political affairs of foreign countries and none of them have ever given birth to any ISIS type of organisations.
According to Wikipedia and other sites, these include:

1949 – Syria.
1953 – Iran.
1954 - Guatemala.
1959 – Tibet.
1961 – Cuba.
1963 – South Vietnam.
1964. Brazil.
1974 – Chile.
1976 – Argentina.
1981 – Nicaragua.

A lot of the above factions have been armed and trained – ‘Mujahideen’ – style by the USA , and these factions also (‘Mujahideen’ style) retained both the knowledge gleaned, and the weaponry received, once American involvement ceased, but I have yet to witness ex-Nicaraguan ‘Contras’ or Cuban exiles bombing Western Countries, hijacking non-military passenger carrying aircraft, flying those aircraft into civilian buildings, deliberately bombing non military targets, and beheading innocent civilians.

Nor have I ever heard any hate-filled speeches from them in which they urge their followers and sympathisers to take up arms and destroy anyone who does not follow or sympathise with their ideologies.

American interference in the politics of foreign counties is wrong and more often than not has had catastrophic effects, but it nonsensical to claim that such a policy ‘created’ ISIS because the insane demons that comprise ISIS would still have gravitated towards each other, and still have initiated their barbaric terrorist ‘war’ under some other ‘name’ and completely independently of any US meddling, because it is in their blood, in their sub-human genes, and in their black hearts and warped minds.

“Without the United States and the Soviet Union and their power struggles, ISIS would not have happened. They wouldn't have been armed, and more importantly, they wouldn't have had generations raised in conflict to become twisted and bloodthirsty.

Let's have 40 years of perpetual warfare and death in the continental United States, and THEN have a look at how "civilized" the population there is.”

The Middle East has had thousands of years of perpetual ‘conflict’ and ‘war’ – from long before the Americas were even discovered - and history is prolifically littered with the ‘bloodthirsty’ barbarism of these ‘warp-minded’ sadists, so any ‘de-civilizing’ effect of such ‘perpetual warfare’ and ‘death’ is solely attributable to their own evil ‘state of being’ and not to any power struggle between Russia and the United States.

Murderous inhuman savagery is in these terrorists blood, in their sub-human genes, and in their black hearts and warped minds, and has been for thousands of years,

“We in the western world are more empathic and more civilized because, frankly, our lives are really ****ing easy. Now, I'm not complaining about that, I like the fact that my life is relatively comfortable. I also understand that it's not logistically possible for everyone in the world to have lives that are as comfortable. I'm not losing sleep or tears over dusty foreign countries. I'm also not excusing barbarism in the Middle East or saying that the people responsible shouldn't be punished or just plain wiped out... because they can't be "fixed" at this point.”

Isn't it more of the case that we in the Western world have “really ****ing easy lives” because we are more civilized?

But let’s not forget that most Middle Eastern countries – Iran (Persia) and Iraq included – had flourishing civilisations thousands of years ago when we still lived primitively by comparison. Yet, these countries still had almost perpetual war, so can the apparent lack of a ‘comfortable’ or ‘civilised’ existence really be validly proffered as a reason for the bloodthirsty and barbaric nature of Islamic Fundamentalists, or the existence of ISIS and other Islamic terror organisations? I think not.

Murderous inhuman savagery is in these terrorists blood, in their sub-human genes, and in their black hearts and warped minds, and has been for thousands of years.

“I just like spades to be called spades... and I think it's a bit ridiculous to sit in our warm comfortable homes condemning the barbaric war psychology of people who have known nothing but war, death and cultural violence. They are not "evil", they are broken, completely and irreparably broken to the point that, yes, most of them probably need "putting down". But the west played a huge part in creating violence that in turn spawned these people. The least we can do is offer up an audible "oops!" as we bomb them into the dirt. Sitting around on morality perches vomitting over how incomprehensibly ruthless they are, when we have not even the slightest concept of what a life like that looks like, is just a bit... distasteful.”

I, for one, sit in my ‘warm comfortable home’ ‘condemning the barbaric war psychology’ of these inhuman Islam Fundamentalist demons because I know their ‘raison d’ętre’. I understand their sole extremist objective, the reason why they murder and bomb and intimidate and behead.

This being so, I also know, that if I am apathetic, lethargic, or ignore that knowledge and understanding, then I will not be in my warm comfortable home for very much longer, because – as an English Christian patriot - the very Democracy which allows me to be so, will disappear under the Islamic Fundamentalist onslaught, and my civil liberty will be ripped away by the imposition of these bastards vile Sharia Law.

As for; “The West played a huge part in creating the violence that in turn spawned these people” I have already given my opinion on this; that these ‘people’ were always as they are now, - before even Biblical times - and any effects which subsequent Western meddling may have had, is arguably minimally contributory at worst, and can never truthfully be termed ‘causal’.

Further; I believe that a lot of us fully understand just what life in a war ravaged country must be like, and I also believe that many of the conditions which render life so hard in those countries are the direct result of the Islamic Fundamentalists themselves and not the ‘West’.

The West have not initiated any war, merely taken retaliatory action to stop the war declared on us by the Islamic terrorists.

The West has not imposed suffering and collateral damage on the innocent non-combatant passive majority populace of certain Middle Eastern countries by building terrorist bases in them. The Islamic Fundamentalist terrorists did that.

The West is not gleefully executing any non-Muslim indigenous citizens of such countries. The Islamic Fundamentalist terrorists are doing that.

The West is not even slaughtering Muslims who belong to the’ wrong’ Islamic sects. The Islamic Fundamentalist terrorists are doing that.

The West did not hijack civilian passenger jets or bomb civilian buildings in foreign countries killing thousands during ‘Peace’ times. The Islamic Fundamentalist terrorists did that.

The West is not slavishly following a 100 year old Master Plan drawn up by terrorists to conquer the world, occupy the vanquished countries, subjugate or eradicate the indigenous citizens and ‘Christianise’ those countries. The Islamic Fundamentalist terrorists are following just such a plan with extreme ‘Islamification’ of the entire world as its supreme goal.

Finally; I find it distasteful for you to describe perfectly legitimate comment – no matter how much laced with moral indignation it may be – to “Sitting around on morality perches vomitting over how incomprehensibly ruthless“ these Islamic Fundamentalist terrorist devils are.

It is the inhuman, evil, immoral atrocities carried out daily by these terrorist devils which should be categorised as ‘vomit’ not the shocked, incredulous, morally outraged comments in reaction to it from sane, civilised, and normal people.

[Marc]

what. the. ****.

[user104658]

Kirklancaster - just to pose a hypothetical question - a newborn baby is taken from a Terrorist encampment. Let's say both parents are terrorists guilty of high level savagery, hundreds of brutal killings of innocent people, torture, the works. basically the worst of the worst. And they have been killed by a raid of the camp and then the baby found and taken away...

The baby is then brought to America or the UK and raised in a peaceful, loving, well-off and comfortable home by devoted parents in a small, quiet village with an excellent school.

Do you genuinely believe that this baby would grow up to be a sadistic / inhumane adult and it's inevitable that they will commit, or at least have a desire to commit, violent crimes?

[lostalex]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Kirklancaster - just to pose a hypothetical question - a newborn baby is taken from a Terrorist encampment. Let's say both parents are terrorists guilty of high level savagery, hundreds of brutal killings of innocent people, torture, the works. basically the worst of the worst. And they have been killed by a raid of the camp and then the baby found and taken away...

The baby is then brought to America or the UK and raised in a peaceful, loving, well-off and comfortable home by devoted parents in a small, quiet village with an excellent school.

Do you genuinely believe that this baby would grow up to be a sadistic / inhumane adult and it's inevitable that they will commit, or at least have a desire to commit, violent crimes?

some things are inherent. My dad was an addict, he overdosed in his 20's. i recently learned this. i was adopted and raised by 2 parents that were not addicts.

I am an alcoholic. i clearly have addiction, even though my adoptive parents were not addicts. i believe i got it from my dad even though i never met him.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Kirklancaster - just to pose a hypothetical question - a newborn baby is taken from a Terrorist encampment. Let's say both parents are terrorists guilty of high level savagery, hundreds of brutal killings of innocent people, torture, the works. basically the worst of the worst. And they have been killed by a raid of the camp and then the baby found and taken away...

The baby is then brought to America or the UK and raised in a peaceful, loving, well-off and comfortable home by devoted parents in a small, quiet village with an excellent school.

Do you genuinely believe that this baby would grow up to be a sadistic / inhumane adult and it's inevitable that they will commit, or at least have a desire to commit, violent crimes?

An excellent question T.S, and one which has no definitive answer.

There has been quite a lot of research into just how causal, genetic and environmental factors are in psycopathic personality traits, and into the genetic inheritance of such traits in the children of serial killers, but as far as I am aware, no such research has ever been carried out specifically into the offspring of terrorists.

One study (in Stockholm in 2002, I think) into the children of serial killers who were adopted as infants and raised by ‘normal’ non-sociopath parents, found that all of the children studied definitely possessed inherited psychopathic tendancies, but the report concluded that positive environmental influences early in life can prevent such tendencies from ever manifesting themselves.

I know there have been other similar studies into twins which came to similar conclusions,

I think of it as the estranged children of psychopaths having ‘time bombs’ in their brains or psyche, and some can live normal lives, whilst others who encounter the precise set of circumstances needed to ‘detonate’ that bomb, will explode.

Even if we agree that the children of evil terrorists who are adopted by normal parents and raised in a stable, loving home as in your hypothesis, will grow up completely normal despite their ‘genetic inheritance’, it is physically impossible to ‘transplant’ in such a manner, all the children of such vermin from the corrupt seedbed of their homelands.

History also teaches us, that these terrorists as a race, as a religion, as Nations, cannot be reasoned with, cannot be appeased, cannot be educated or reformed. Therefore, it is not difficult to see how the bestial, evil, inhuman, characteristics of these sub-humans has endured for thousands of years and will never change by it's own volition. To illustrate this - and at the risk of yet again 'pissing off' other forum members by another lengthy post - I reproduce below an abridgment from an article in the Mail:

"Every year the kindergartens of Gaza graduate a new class of children dressed like terrorists and suicide bombers. A teacher explained that, “In every year’s kindergarten graduation ceremonies we focus on the children to represent the role of struggling and resistance in the way of Allah.”

"One child spoke of wanting to blow himself and kill the most Jews."

"Children’s magazines and television shows encourage them to kill and die using everything from songs to costumed characters. On 'Pioneers of Tomorrow', the children are urged to grow up to kill Jews. “All of them?” a little girl is asked “Yes” is her reply.


When a Hamas spokesman encouraged the use of human shields, he cited the case of Nizar Riyyan, a Hamas leader who deliberately surrounded himself with his own children when he knew that an attack was coming and asked other family members if they would like to die as martyrs with him.

But Hamas, like the PLO and Islamic jihad, doesn't just use its own children as cannon fodder. It sets out to kill Jewish children.

A Hamas terrorist attack on a Jerusalem 'Sbarro' pizzeria filled with women and children, killed 7 children, including an 8-year-old girl and a 2-year-old boy and many other children were wounded. A 3 year-old girl was lifted up by the explosion and landed on broken glass.

“There were people – babies – thrown through the window and covered with blood,” an eyewitness described the horrifying scene.

A New Yorker described, “Wading through bodies, including the bodies of children.”

“The worst thing I saw, which I think will haunt me all my life, is a baby that was sitting in a stroller outside a shop and was dead,” another eyewitness related.

“After the explosion, the baby’s mother came out of the store and started screaming hysterically.”

One of the Hamas terrorists involved in the attack described her reaction and the Muslim reaction.

“While I was on the bus and everybody was congratulating one another, they said on the radio that there had been a martyrdom attack at the Sbarro restaurant, and that three people were killed. I admit that I was a bit disappointed, because I had hoped for a larger toll. Yet when they said ‘three dead,’ I said: ‘Allah be praised.'”

“Two minutes later, they said on the radio that the number had increased to five. I wanted to hide my smile, but I just couldn't. Allah be praised, it was great. As the number of dead kept increasing, the passengers were applauding.”

Another of the Hamas terrorists involved in the attack said, “We have to send them a message that their children are not safe.”

The father of the Hamas suicide bomber, who came from a wealthy family, explained his motive. “We have to get rid of the Jews.”

Yusuf Al-Qaradawi, the religious leader of the “moderate” Muslim Brotherhood, the parent organization of Hamas and Al Qaeda, had said, “Suicide attacks represent the highest level of martyrdom, because there are no civilians in Israel.”

“We have the children bomb and these human bombs must continue until liberation.”

Sheikh Rashid Ghannouchi, of Tunisia’s equally 'moderate' Islamist Ennahda Movement, said, “There are no civilians in Israel. The population—males, females and children—are the army reserve soldiers, and thus can be killed.”

Ennahda’s takeover of Tunisia has been described as the only “true success” of the Arab Spring.

Sheikh Ahmed Yassin, the religious leader of Hamas, had said, “There are no civilians in Israel, they are all military, all occupiers.”

Ismail Abu Shanab, one of the founders of Hamas, often described by the media as the most moderate Hamas leader, echoed the old monster, “There are no civilians in Israel.”

Article Seven of the Hamas Charter had already made it clear that the climax of its religious war would come with the complete extermination of all Jews.

That meant, as Rachid Ghannouchi had said, the extermination of men, women… and children.

Hamas uses its own children as human shields and cannon fodder. And it seeks to kill as many Jewish children as possible.

When Israelis accidentally kill Muslim children during a war, the country is traumatized. When Muslims kill Jewish children, they celebrate, like the passengers who applauded every time they heard another report of murdered Jewish children come in over the radio.

The Sbarro attack continues to be celebrated and commemorated by Hamas because the murder of children embodies its Islamic religious values.

Shaykh Ibn Uthaymins, one of the leading Islamic religious figures in Saudi Arabia, explained why women and children should be killed. “What is apparent is that it is allowed for us to kill their women and children, even if that were to cause us to miss taking them as wealth (slaves), due to its breaking the hearts of the enemy.”

“If we don’t kill them, this is a humiliation for us,” the Islamic cleric added.“The honor of the Muslims is more important than wealth.”
This fatwa was quoted by Anwar Al-Awlaki, the leading propagandist of Al Qaeda.

For Hamas, as for Al Qaeda and Boko Haram and countless other Islamic terrorist groups, dead children are a source of pride. They fill their own children up with a culture of death and they celebrate when the children of non-Muslims are murdered by their children.

A death cult rules over Gaza. It wants the death of children on both sides and it is responsible for the deaths of children on both sides

[Nedusa]

These attacks on Jewish people in Israel/ West Bank are few and far between compared with the almost daily unrelenting savage murderous attacks carried out on all Palestinian people for decades, so yes it is not difficult to see how a rare attack like this would be celebrated and used as a symbol of hope in this massively one sided evil subjugation and brutal occupation of the Palestinian people and their lands.





.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by lostalex

some things are inherent. My dad was an addict, he overdosed in his 20's. i recently learned this. i was adopted and raised by 2 parents that were not addicts.

I am an alcoholic. i clearly have addiction, even though my adoptive parents were not addicts. i believe i got it from my dad even though i never met him.

Some traits CAN be inherited but not necessarily. My mother was an alcoholic of such severity that she died from liver failure last March aged 59, and I can say with conviction that I am not an addict. It's dangerous to assume inherited traits are a certainty, in my opinion.

Which leads me on to Kirklancaster's large post. I think you're venturing into slightly dangerous territory if I'm honest, Kirk. Personally I think it's somewhat ludicrous to brand an entire genetic subset of people as inherently violent or psychotic... especially whilst completely ignoring the larger global context of these conflicts and suggesting that western nations are morally superior by nature rather than by circumstance. The reason I believe this to be dangerous thinking, is that you are essentially saying that these nations can't be helped or fixed as any replacement power structure would also be made up of these "genetically tainted" people and therefore doomed to follow a path of war once again. The only solution, if that is the case, is to advocate genocide.

And I don't think you're alone in that way of thinking, Kirk. I think the world is on a very dark path at the moment, and in a hundred years looking back, it will be very difficult to identify who was "evil". Or, rather, it'll be hard to point to anyone who wasn't.

[JoshBB]

Oh my god :/ but saudia arabia does things like this more commonly..

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

An excellent question T.S, and one which has no definitive answer.

There has been quite a lot of research into just how causal, genetic and environmental factors are in psycopathic personality traits, and into the genetic inheritance of such traits in the children of serial killers, but as far as I am aware, no such research has ever been carried out specifically into the offspring of terrorists.

One study (in Stockholm in 2002, I think) into the children of serial killers who were adopted as infants and raised by ‘normal’ non-sociopath parents, found that all of the children studied definitely possessed inherited psychopathic tendancies, but the report concluded that positive environmental influences early in life can prevent such tendencies from ever manifesting themselves.

I know there have been other similar studies into twins which came to similar conclusions,

I think of it as the estranged children of psychopaths having ‘time bombs’ in their brains or psyche, and some can live normal lives, whilst others who encounter the precise set of circumstances needed to ‘detonate’ that bomb, will explode.

Even if we agree that the children of evil terrorists who are adopted by normal parents and raised in a stable, loving home as in your hypothesis, will grow up completely normal despite their ‘genetic inheritance’, it is physically impossible to ‘transplant’ in such a manner, all the children of such vermin from the corrupt seedbed of their homelands.

History also teaches us, that these terrorists as a race, as a religion, as Nations, cannot be reasoned with, cannot be appeased, cannot be educated or reformed. Therefore, it is not difficult to see how the bestial, evil, inhuman, characteristics of these sub-humans has endured for thousands of years and will never change by it's own volition. To illustrate this - and at the risk of yet again 'pissing off' other forum members by another lengthy post - I reproduce below an abridgment from an article in the Mail:

"Every year the kindergartens of Gaza graduate a new class of children dressed like terrorists and suicide bombers. A teacher explained that, “In every year’s kindergarten graduation ceremonies we focus on the children to represent the role of struggling and resistance in the way of Allah.”

"One child spoke of wanting to blow himself and kill the most Jews."

"Children’s magazines and television shows encourage them to kill and die using everything from songs to costumed characters. On 'Pioneers of Tomorrow', the children are urged to grow up to kill Jews. “All of them?” a little girl is asked “Yes” is her reply.


When a Hamas spokesman encouraged the use of human shields, he cited the case of Nizar Riyyan, a Hamas leader who deliberately surrounded himself with his own children when he knew that an attack was coming and asked other family members if they would like to die as martyrs with him.

But Hamas, like the PLO and Islamic jihad, doesn't just use its own children as cannon fodder. It sets out to kill Jewish children.

A Hamas terrorist attack on a Jerusalem 'Sbarro' pizzeria filled with women and children, killed 7 children, including an 8-year-old girl and a 2-year-old boy and many other children were wounded. A 3 year-old girl was lifted up by the explosion and landed on broken glass.

“There were people – babies – thrown through the window and covered with blood,” an eyewitness described the horrifying scene.

A New Yorker described, “Wading through bodies, including the bodies of children.”

“The worst thing I saw, which I think will haunt me all my life, is a baby that was sitting in a stroller outside a shop and was dead,” another eyewitness related.

“After the explosion, the baby’s mother came out of the store and started screaming hysterically.”

One of the Hamas terrorists involved in the attack described her reaction and the Muslim reaction.

“While I was on the bus and everybody was congratulating one another, they said on the radio that there had been a martyrdom attack at the Sbarro restaurant, and that three people were killed. I admit that I was a bit disappointed, because I had hoped for a larger toll. Yet when they said ‘three dead,’ I said: ‘Allah be praised.'”

“Two minutes later, they said on the radio that the number had increased to five. I wanted to hide my smile, but I just couldn't. Allah be praised, it was great. As the number of dead kept increasing, the passengers were applauding.”

Another of the Hamas terrorists involved in the attack said, “We have to send them a message that their children are not safe.”

The father of the Hamas suicide bomber, who came from a wealthy family, explained his motive. “We have to get rid of the Jews.”

Yusuf Al-Qaradawi, the religious leader of the “moderate” Muslim Brotherhood, the parent organization of Hamas and Al Qaeda, had said, “Suicide attacks represent the highest level of martyrdom, because there are no civilians in Israel.”

“We have the children bomb and these human bombs must continue until liberation.”

Sheikh Rashid Ghannouchi, of Tunisia’s equally 'moderate' Islamist Ennahda Movement, said, “There are no civilians in Israel. The population—males, females and children—are the army reserve soldiers, and thus can be killed.”

Ennahda’s takeover of Tunisia has been described as the only “true success” of the Arab Spring.

Sheikh Ahmed Yassin, the religious leader of Hamas, had said, “There are no civilians in Israel, they are all military, all occupiers.”

Ismail Abu Shanab, one of the founders of Hamas, often described by the media as the most moderate Hamas leader, echoed the old monster, “There are no civilians in Israel.”

Article Seven of the Hamas Charter had already made it clear that the climax of its religious war would come with the complete extermination of all Jews.

That meant, as Rachid Ghannouchi had said, the extermination of men, women… and children.

Hamas uses its own children as human shields and cannon fodder. And it seeks to kill as many Jewish children as possible.

When Israelis accidentally kill Muslim children during a war, the country is traumatized. When Muslims kill Jewish children, they celebrate, like the passengers who applauded every time they heard another report of murdered Jewish children come in over the radio.

The Sbarro attack continues to be celebrated and commemorated by Hamas because the murder of children embodies its Islamic religious values.

Shaykh Ibn Uthaymins, one of the leading Islamic religious figures in Saudi Arabia, explained why women and children should be killed. “What is apparent is that it is allowed for us to kill their women and children, even if that were to cause us to miss taking them as wealth (slaves), due to its breaking the hearts of the enemy.”

“If we don’t kill them, this is a humiliation for us,” the Islamic cleric added.“The honor of the Muslims is more important than wealth.”
This fatwa was quoted by Anwar Al-Awlaki, the leading propagandist of Al Qaeda.

For Hamas, as for Al Qaeda and Boko Haram and countless other Islamic terrorist groups, dead children are a source of pride. They fill their own children up with a culture of death and they celebrate when the children of non-Muslims are murdered by their children.

A death cult rules over Gaza. It wants the death of children on both sides and it is responsible for the deaths of children on both sides

If we apply your brand of psychology to a different scenario, isn't it true that if you were to teach the next generation to distrust those from the other side of the world and perpetuate the myth that they are inherantly different to 'us?' And that 'they' can not be intergrated into a civilised society due to this is that not being equally as intolerant and indoctinating?

[user104658]

Originally Posted by ArchAngel

If we apply your brand of psychology to a different scenario, isn't it true that if you were to teach the next generation to distrust those from the other side of the world and perpetuate the myth that they are inherantly different to 'us?' And that 'they' can not be intergrated into a civilised society due to this is that not being equally as intolerant and indoctinating?

Well, Kirklancaster's suggestion is that intolerance / indoctrination isn't the problem at all and that the people (Post-Persian races I'm assuming, I don't know how far he extends this hypothesis) are genetically predisposed towards being violent / sadistic. We couldn't therefore "teach" upcoming generations to be violently intolerant of others because we simply have "better genes"... and our intolerance would only be towards people who are of genetic inferiority (in terms, at least, of their trustworthiness).

I'd by lying is I said I don't find it, although an interesting point of view, quite a troubling one. In danger of Godwin's law rearing its' ugly head - the idea that the Jews possessed undesirable traits genetically (rather than, arguably, culturally) was one of Hitler's major justifications for eradicating them to essentially "save the world". I have no doubt that Hitler himself fully believed this and that, in his eyes, his actions were a necessary evil for the greater good. Again, I have to say that it's not something I believe at all, I don't think most terrorists were born predisposed to anything at all, but rather that there are cultural aspects of Islam (and, to be frank, all Abrahamic religions, there are some truly terrifying Christian organisations state-side) that lend themselves to indoctrination by certain people who have made indoctrination an art-form.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by lostalex

some things are inherent. My dad was an addict, he overdosed in his 20's. i recently learned this. i was adopted and raised by 2 parents that were not addicts.

I am an alcoholic. i clearly have addiction, even though my adoptive parents were not addicts. i believe i got it from my dad even though i never met him.

Its not so much we inherit addictive personalities as personalities lend themselves to addiction.

If that makes sense

[Nedusa]

Just watching tonight on Sky News to former British Soldiers going to Syria to fight ISIS.

Very brave men, hopefully the first of many, before the regular Army goes out there and snuffs out this band of evil spineless cowards.



.

[Crimson Dynamo]

they are at it again



http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...wds-Syria.html

[Livia]

Oh... but according to this thread, the West is just as bad as ISIS. And anyway, it's all the West's fault. Oh, and Israel's. We made them do this... apparently and the people who need to feel guilty is... us.

I despair of this place and its insular, two-dimensional opinions.