[Livia]

So, the people who are living high on the hog... the people who don't work, haven't worked for ages and still manage to live a fairly good life... how do they do it? I am aware that they are not the majority, but there is a large minority of people who choose not to work, who maybe think certain jobs are beneath them who live well, holiday abroad, have a social life... Is there some secret formula that says, if you want to sit on your arse forever, we'll fund it. But it you've worked, and you're looking for another job, we'll whack you with sanctions? It makes no sense to me.

[Kizzy]

They don't... it's a fallacy, unless you're a criminal there is no way that jobseekers allows that.
How can you sign on daily and holiday abroad?

[Livia]

Obviously those people aren't on Jobseekers Allowance so I'd really like to know how they fund their lifestyle. I know several people who live like this... I'm sure we all do. Sadly everyone on benefits will be tarred with the same brush.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by arista

Yes also under New Labour
the very old were freezing

Really, Labour brought in pension credit that gave all over 60 an additional income.
Labour brought in the winter fuel allowance of £200+ for pensioners and also increased for the most vulnerable, the cold weather payments from the Conservatives paltry £8 to £9 for every 7day below freezing period,up to £25.
None of which have had increases made to them under this coalition.

The very old had less need to freeze under Labour than under this lot, who have also presided over some of the highest ever increases of energy prices as to gas and electricity seen since 2010.
That's before we even start on water fees too.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Livia

Obviously those people aren't on Jobseekers Allowance so I'd really like to know how they fund their lifestyle. I know several people who live like this... I'm sure we all do. Sadly everyone on benefits will be tarred with the same brush.

The thread is about the sanctions to jobseekers and whether they are right or fair, if someone you know has another source of income that's not the issue is it?
Tarred with what brush... how has the discussion flipped to claimants?

[AnnieK]

I honestly don't know anyone personally on job seekers but I have heard some horror stories about people being sanctioned unfairly but equally I'm sure a lot of sanctions are fair...if people don't keep to the rules there has to be consequences.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Livia

Obviously those people aren't on Jobseekers Allowance so I'd really like to know how they fund their lifestyle. I know several people who live like this... I'm sure we all do. Sadly everyone on benefits will be tarred with the same brush.

For most there will be a disability claim involved - some will have a genuine reason that they can't work, others will be full on fraudulent but I think it's going a bit far to call it a "large" minority. However - yes - there does appear to be a "secret formula" that allows fraudulent claims to be made but the answer to that is NOT subjecting everyone to more tests, more scrutiny and more sanctions. Because the people who are doing it have been doing it for years and are experts at getting around these sorts of things, so the ONLY people who are being impacted by this regime of "shaming" and punitive measures, are genuine claimants. The people scamming the system will just find new ways to scam the system.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

For most there will be a disability claim involved - some will have a genuine reason that they can't work, others will be full on fraudulent but I think it's going a bit far to call it a "large" minority. However - yes - there does appear to be a "secret formula" that allows fraudulent claims to be made but the answer to that is NOT subjecting everyone to more tests, more scrutiny and more sanctions. Because the people who are doing it have been doing it for years and are experts at getting around these sorts of things, so the ONLY people who are being impacted by this regime of "shaming" and punitive measures, are genuine claimants. The people scamming the system will just find new ways to scam the system.

Absolutely spot on, and in the end massive stress and anxiety and even worse ill health can be,and often is, the result of demonising,attacking and penalising the vast majority of innocents to get at the tiny minority of,to use your description,scammers.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by AnnieK

I honestly don't know anyone personally on job seekers but I have heard some horror stories about people being sanctioned unfairly but equally I'm sure a lot of sanctions are fair...if people don't keep to the rules there has to be consequences.

I was briefly on Jobseekers 6 years ago and they tried to sanction me for giving up the job I had when I was a student... 400 miles from where I had moved to after graduation to be with my pregnant fiancée. You can't get jobseekers if you have "quit" a job without good reason.

It was overturned on appeal when I explained, repeatedly, that as I had been living in a Student house I didn't even have anywhere to live in the town I had been a student in . Took a fair bit of form-filling to have them accept that as a good reason though, I think I was supposed to just sleep in a bag outside the place I was working.

At the time we had nothing - literally nothing - and a fair whack of student credit card debt to boot... we would have been homeless and starving. That's a major problem with these sanctions. The politicians dreaming them up seem to have no concept of what actual poverty is. Most of them were born into families who had the means to support them through private schools and set them up for life... they don't get that people "sanctioned for a couple of months" don't have savings to tide them over, or family who can bail them out.

I can even almost get on board with it if it's just single claimants, or just JSA. Most people can find a couch to sleep on, if it really comes down to it. When it comes down to the bare bones, one healthy individual without responsibilities can fend for themself.

But sanctioning families, with children, is completely and utterly immoral and is happening far too often.

[edit] Just thought I'd add to this one, that being on Jobseeker's and attending that wretched center was easily the most horrific and demeaning experience of my entire life. It was genuinely awful, and I was only on it for 4 months. And that was before most of these crushing reforms. I genuinely feel for anyone in that situation - the VAST majority want nothing more than to work, and most of them have the ability and the experience to take up jobs without the ridiculous courses and "work experience" that is forced on them.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

Absolutely spot on, and in the end massive stress and anxiety and even worse ill health can be,and often is, the result of demonising,attacking and penalising the vast majority of innocents to get at the tiny minority of,to use your description,scammers.

Another often overlooked part of it is people who shouldn't be working plugging on because they are so scared of the system... the very people who DO absolutely need it. My first day at work when I moved up to Scotland from England, I was working alongside a lovely lady in her late 50's. The first thing she said to me was "If I start wheezing and struggling for breath don't worry, I sometimes just need to take a wee minute!". She has a degenerative lung condition and was "wheezing and struggling for breath" next to me for 18 months - refusing to leave the job even though every colleague, company supervisors, the HR department, and even at one point the director for the whole of Scotland, was telling her that she was killing herself. Basically, attacks or intense stress can cause degeneration of her lung capacity and once that has happened it can never be recovered... she was getting worse almost on a monthly basis - the job can often be fast-paced and stressful.

She did eventually conceed defeat and left, and was immediately awarded highest level disability without question. And that's under the current regime. I'm unsurprised as you only have to talk to her for 5 minutes to know that she is not fit to be working (although I would also have been unsurprised if they'd told her to crawl back to work and die...). Anyway, the point is, she was VERY clearly unfit to work but she was so scared by the stories that she was willing to work herself to death rather than try to claim. That was about 3 years ago that she left... she still comes in to say hello and isn't much worse than when she left. If she had stayed at work I am pretty much sure that she would be dead or bedridden by now.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Another often overlooked part of it is people who shouldn't be working plugging on because they are so scared of the system... the very people who DO absolutely need it. My first day at work when I moved up to Scotland from England, I was working alongside a lovely lady in her late 50's. The first thing she said to me was "If I start wheezing and struggling for breath don't worry, I sometimes just need to take a wee minute!". She has a degenerative lung condition and was "wheezing and struggling for breath" next to me for 18 months - refusing to leave the job even though every colleague, company supervisors, the HR department, and even at one point the director for the whole of Scotland, was telling her that she was killing herself. Basically, attacks or intense stress can cause degeneration of her lung capacity and once that has happened it can never be recovered... she was getting worse almost on a monthly basis - the job can often be fast-paced and stressful.

She did eventually conceed defeat and left, and was immediately awarded highest level disability without question. And that's under the current regime. I'm unsurprised as you only have to talk to her for 5 minutes to know that she is not fit to be working (although I would also have been unsurprised if they'd told her to crawl back to work and die...). Anyway, the point is, she was VERY clearly unfit to work but she was so scared by the stories that she was willing to work herself to death rather than try to claim. That was about 3 years ago that she left... she still comes in to say hello and isn't much worse than when she left. If she had stayed at work I am pretty much sure that she would be dead or bedridden by now.

That is both a good example and bad in the other aspect,(thank you for sahring that on here Toy Soldier), that she felt so worried about the system that she likely would have gone on and on.

Really good news to hear she got the due benefit entitlements with little problem,that is how it should be however and no one should be made to feel they have no dignity becasue they are in genuine need of help and benefits.

Despite my moaning, I have found instances, where the DWP have placed a claimant in the wrag group of ESA, then when they have been taken to theri first meeting with the appointed person at the jobcentre,for their work related activity group programme, the interviewer at the jobcentre has said they shouldn't be in the wrag section of ESA but should be in the support group.
Very often, all that jobcentre person does is take it to telephone appointments with them until it is sorted out as to being in the support group.

However,then it still has to go through the lengthy appeals process and if the DWP don't change their mind, then on and on it goes until a good number of times it takes a court to decide who is right.

Trying to be fair a little to jobcentre staff, they are told they have to do this and are literally swamped with people that really should not even be having to go to them at all.
People who are taking time away from them helping someone into work that really needs the help to and wants the help too to do so.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

Trying to be fair a little to jobcentre staff, they are told they have to do this and are literally swamped with people that really should not even be having to go to them at all.
People who are taking time away from them helping someone into work that really needs the help to and wants the help too to do so.

You can't really blame Jobcenter staff at all in my opinion - they are handed the "rules" and what can they do but go with it? They know better than anyone else what will happen to them if they lose the job, must be terrifying. They could be back there a week later on the other side of the desk. I also find it's easy to say that they "should at least be nicer about it" but if you have to work in that environment every day... I can see it being easy to lose your "soul" pretty quickly. (Not that I believe in such things literally).

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

You can't really blame Jobcenter staff at all in my opinion - they are handed the "rules" and what can they do but go with it? They know better than anyone else what will happen to them if they lose the job, must be terrifying. They could be back there a week later on the other side of the desk. I also find it's easy to say that they "should at least be nicer about it" but if you have to work in that environment every day... I can see it being easy to lose your "soul" pretty quickly. (Not that I believe in such things literally).

I don't blame them for the job they are 'forced' to do but the way some of them do it and the way some of them talk really down to claimants at times is way out of order from what I have witnessed.

Often too, the talking down to is done rather loudly and it is possible for others to hear what is said too.

[Kizzy]

And now it's flipped to fraudulent claims for disability, again that's not what was intended with the OP from what I can see, the issue being addressed isn't the fair sanctions either... it's the unfair sanctions.
How genuine jobseeker claimants and their children are impacted by impractical, irrational and unjust demands from the job centre.
Skirting around the issue and diverting the discussions isn't helpful for me.

[the truth]

there is also a problem with useless employees at the job centres and the burocratic fiascos misunderstandings and endless delays.....in the end my advice to everyone in reasonable health is go to work. frankly any work is better than none. though I draw the line at selling my lithe body as a gigolo or rent boy

[user104658]

Originally Posted by the truth

there is also a problem with useless employees at the job centres and the burocratic fiascos misunderstandings and endless delays.....in the end my advice to everyone in reasonable health is go to work. frankly any work is better than none. though I draw the line at selling my lithe body as a gigolo or rent boy

You say it like it's that simple. When I was on JSA I was not fussy in the slightest, I was applying for anything and everything, it still took nearly 5 months. And that's as a young, fit, able bodied, well spoken, well dressed young person, straight-A school grades, a degree and with a decent work history to boot. If I could just have clicked my fingers and "gone to work" then I certainly would have. Even the job I eventually got was, at entry level, part-time and about 50p above minimum wage... in an industry that I actively despise. I'm in a much better financial position now and whilst I'm not "unhappy at work" - it's still an industry that I despise on principle - and I'm constantly on the lookout for alternative employment if it pays the same or better... in five years I can count on my fingers the number of vacancies that have even been worth sniffing at. I don't live in or near a major city... the jobs simply are not available.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

You say it like it's that simple. When I was on JSA I was not fussy in the slightest, I was applying for anything and everything, it still took nearly 5 months. And that's as a young, fit, able bodied, well spoken, well dressed young person, straight-A school grades, a degree and with a decent work history to boot. If I could just have clicked my fingers and "gone to work" then I certainly would have. Even the job I eventually got was, at entry level, part-time and about 50p above minimum wage... in an industry that I actively despise. I'm in a much better financial position now and whilst I'm not "unhappy at work" - it's still an industry that I despise on principle - and I'm constantly on the lookout for alternative employment if it pays the same or better... in five years I can count on my fingers the number of vacancies that have even been worth sniffing at. I don't live in or near a major city... the jobs simply are not available.

Another strong and insightful post from your experiences Toy Soldier, you are right jobs are not available for all that need and want them.
It must be annoying for people in the position of really wanting and needing work to hear it said they should get out there and get a job.

I have to say, your posts on this have been fascinating to read and are likely some of the best and fairest on the thread,in my view.

[the truth]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

You say it like it's that simple. When I was on JSA I was not fussy in the slightest, I was applying for anything and everything, it still took nearly 5 months. And that's as a young, fit, able bodied, well spoken, well dressed young person, straight-A school grades, a degree and with a decent work history to boot. If I could just have clicked my fingers and "gone to work" then I certainly would have. Even the job I eventually got was, at entry level, part-time and about 50p above minimum wage... in an industry that I actively despise. I'm in a much better financial position now and whilst I'm not "unhappy at work" - it's still an industry that I despise on principle - and I'm constantly on the lookout for alternative employment if it pays the same or better... in five years I can count on my fingers the number of vacancies that have even been worth sniffing at. I don't live in or near a major city... the jobs simply are not available.

if have decent health it IS simple, go to work....so its not your dream job? big deal ....earn your way in life, study whilst working, apply for other jobs whilst working, being in work will always impress potential future employers more too....be productive, utilise yourself, make it happen, go to work

[user104658]

Originally Posted by the truth

if have decent health it IS simple, go to work....so its not your dream job? big deal ....earn your way in life, study whilst working, apply for other jobs whilst working, being in work will always impress potential future employers more too....be productive, utilise yourself, make it happen, go to work

Yes, but did you miss the bit where I said "it took nearly 5 months"? That was to find ANY job. I'm pointing out that I wasn't being unrealistic or looking for my dream job. I *do* go out every day to a job that I dislike, even though I'm now in a position where the pay is " alright ". I took the first job that I was offered and worked up. I was not even slightly fussy, I didn't turn anything down.

It took five months jobseeking to be offered that job.

So no. You do not just decide to "go to work".

[Glenn.]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Yes, but did you miss the bit where I said "it took nearly 5 months"? That was to find ANY job. I'm pointing out that I wasn't being unrealistic or looking for my dream job. I *do* go out every day to a job that I dislike, even though I'm now in a position where the pay is " alright ". I took the first job that I was offered and worked up. I was not even slightly fussy, I didn't turn anything down.

It took five months jobseeking to be offered that job.

So no. You do not just decide to "go to work".

Amen

[user104658]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

Another strong and insightful post from your experiences Toy Soldier, you are right jobs are not available for all that need and want them.
It must be annoying for people in the position of really wanting and needing work to hear it said they should get out there and get a job.

I have to say, your posts on this have been fascinating to read and are likely some of the best and fairest on the thread,in my view.

Thanks Joey, it's one of those topics where my opinions 6 or 7 years ago would probably have been quite different to what they are. But having been "poor" for a couple of years (even in work) completely changed my perception when it comes to work and the benefits system. It can't possibly be what anyone would choose. Signing on is humiliating, scrabbling together 5p coins for a loaf of bread (and then having to dump them on the counter to pay) is worse, and walking in the rain, getting squashed worms stuck in shoes that have holes in them because you'd rather spend the money you have left after rent and bills on your child... That's pretty much rock bottom. And for the last one I was actually working. It's really only the last three or so years that I've been fine money wise and only the last year that I've been in the position of having "spending money" sat in my wallet.

It sounds like a proper sob story! ... But seriously, I grew up in a middle income family never really thinking about out cash flow, and those few years after University as a young parent changed my entire outlook. For that reason, I wouldn't take them back.

Even if I do occasionally get panics about something "going wrong" and ending up back there...

[the truth]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Yes, but did you miss the bit where I said "it took nearly 5 months"? That was to find ANY job. I'm pointing out that I wasn't being unrealistic or looking for my dream job. I *do* go out every day to a job that I dislike, even though I'm now in a position where the pay is " alright ". I took the first job that I was offered and worked up. I was not even slightly fussy, I didn't turn anything down.

It took five months jobseeking to be offered that job.

So no. You do not just decide to "go to work".

lol open your eyes....that's nonsense and I don't believe a word of it. youre in danger of believing your own nonsense...there are always 100s of job even if it means bending down and getting ones hands dirty

[the truth]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Thanks Joey, it's one of those topics where my opinions 6 or 7 years ago would probably have been quite different to what they are. But having been "poor" for a couple of years (even in work) completely changed my perception when it comes to work and the benefits system. It can't possibly be what anyone would choose. Signing on is humiliating, scrabbling together 5p coins for a loaf of bread (and then having to dump them on the counter to pay) is worse, and walking in the rain, getting squashed worms stuck in shoes that have holes in them because you'd rather spend the money you have left after rent and bills on your child... That's pretty much rock bottom. And for the last one I was actually working. It's really only the last three or so years that I've been fine money wise and only the last year that I've been in the position of having "spending money" sat in my wallet.

It sounds like a proper sob story! ... But seriously, I grew up in a middle income family never really thinking about out cash flow, and those few years after University as a young parent changed my entire outlook. For that reason, I wouldn't take them back.

Even if I do occasionally get panics about something "going wrong" and ending up back there...

and the solution was........drumroll..........going to work

[user104658]

Originally Posted by the truth

lol open your eyes....that's nonsense and I don't believe a word of it. youre in danger of believing your own nonsense...there are always 100s of job even if it means bending down and getting ones hands dirty

You are simply incorrect. I'm going to assume that you live in, or near, a large city if you believe that to be the case.

Away from those areas it doesn't matter if you're happy to lick up **** with your tongue... There will be plenty of other people competing to lick faster. I applied for a 16 hour shelf stacking job at Morrisons and was informed that there had been 316 other applicants - in a town of under 20,000.

[the truth]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

You are simply incorrect. I'm going to assume that you live in, or near, a large city if you believe that to be the case.

Away from those areas it doesn't matter if you're happy to lick up **** with your tongue... There will be plenty of other people competing to lick faster. I applied for a 16 hour shelf stacking job at Morrisons and was informed that there had been 316 other applicants - in a town of under 20,000.

I dont believe you. why didn't you clean something, care for someone, drive for someone, security jobs are everywhere too....even cold calling jobs, café jobs, bar jobs, endless customer services jobs, even selling door to door is something I earned a living from years ago. you clealry didn't look far and wide enough. but youre just going to repeat yourself now in a desperate attempt to convince yourself you couldn't have done any more to find work.