[In the Drunk Tank]

Democracy is neither inherently good nor inherently bad. Like Capitalism. It should not be treated as the most virtuous system or as the end game of civilisation like it often is. It is however a good foundation which befits our country and most of the world. Of course you will ever truly get total democracy where all of society decides on every single decision because that would be ridiculous, but we have utilised the idea of democracy as best we can and integrated it into an effective and efficient way to govern. As much as we like to beat on our own democracy it is the envy of much of the world and is very successful.

Not all countries will agree of course that the Western model is best for them. IMO it's a failure of Western policy that we took the attitude that every other country in the world wants to be like us, even if they don't know it yet. Surely deep down everyone wants a Western style democracy right? But of course they don't. And it's why I'm always wary of global intervention because it carries a certain arrogance that we know best and should impose that on everyone else. Maybe democracy is just not tenable in some countries. In a lot of the Middle East, where nations are melting pots of ethnic and religious tension, it's hard to see how a secular and democratic government can emerge from all that while also trying to keep a lid on it. 'Democracy' carries such saintly connotations in this day that its a hard thing to argue against, but it is not the ultimate and infallible ideal that it can often be made out to be

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by MTVN

Democracy is neither inherently good nor inherently bad. Like Capitalism. It should not be treated as the most virtuous system or as the end game of civilisation like it often is. It is however a good foundation which befits our country and most of the world. Of course you will ever truly get total democracy where all of society decides on every single decision because that would be ridiculous, but we have utilised the idea of democracy as best we can and integrated it into an effective and efficient way to govern. As much as we like to beat on our own democracy it is the envy of much of the world and is very successful.

Not all countries will agree of course that the Western model is best for them. IMO it's a failure of Western policy that we took the attitude that every other country in the world wants to be like us, even if they don't know it yet. Surely deep down everyone wants a Western style democracy right? But of course they don't. And it's why I'm always wary of global intervention because it carries a certain arrogance that we know best and should impose that on everyone else. Maybe democracy is just not tenable in some countries. In a lot of the Middle East, where nations are melting pots of ethnic and religious tension, it's hard to see how a secular and democratic government can emerge from all that while also trying to keep a lid on it. 'Democracy' carries such saintly connotations in this day that its a hard thing to argue against, but it is not the ultimate and infallible ideal that it can often be made out to be

In the west I believe we have the illusion of democracy, we 'think' we're making at least some of the important decisions regarding our democracy...but we're not it's all a charade.
It's only when you see how we operate in a pincer formation for what we want that you realise we're far removed from the image projected.
Democracy has it's darkside like capitalism right enough, but when you see that rights are being eroded it's not good enough to say 'well it could be worse we could be China'.....but then, we could be China.
And we could have all the issues of the middle east, things could be better but they could also be a lot worse.
Governments the world over have laid claim to every bit of land and all the earths resources, that's not conducive to a happy population as they have nowhere to live and nothing to live off.

[In the Drunk Tank]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

In the west I believe we have the illusion of democracy, we 'think' we're making at least some of the important decisions regarding our democracy...but we're not it's all a charade.
It's only when you see how we operate in a pincer formation for what we want that you realise we're far removed from the image projected.
Democracy has it's darkside like capitalism right enough, but when you see that rights are being eroded it's not good enough to say 'well it could be worse we could be China'.....but then, we could be China.
And we could have all the issues of the middle east, things could be better but they could also be a lot worse.
Governments the world over have laid claim to every bit of land and all the earths resources, that's not conducive to a happy population as they have nowhere to live and nothing to live off.

But we do actually make a difference. We decide the biggest issue of all in who governs us, not only that but we extend that right to every British citizen and also to a lot of people who are not here on a permanent basis like international students. We have regular elections at all levels, we have systems of accountability, we have means for the public to get much more involved in politics than they have been before. You could say its not a real democracy because there's only really two parties capable of governing, because we don't get a say on every issue, because politicians lie, they spin things, they go back on promises etc. etc. but those things can never be completely eradicated and it is all about trying to apply the best of democratic ideals in a practical and functional sense. And in general we make a very good job of that. I'm not saying we have no right to ever complain or that our system is perfect because that would be silly. But in general the UK is a decent conciliation of numerous different ideas and interests and we should be glad of that

[the truth]

Originally Posted by MTVN

But we do actually make a difference. We decide the biggest issue of all in who governs us, not only that but we extend that right to every British citizen and also to a lot of people who are not here on a permanent basis like international students. We have regular elections at all levels, we have systems of accountability, we have means for the public to get much more involved in politics than they have been before. You could say its not a real democracy because there's only really two parties capable of governing, because we don't get a say on every issue, because politicians lie, they spin things, they go back on promises etc. etc. but those things can never be completely eradicated and it is all about trying to apply the best of democratic ideals in a practical and functional sense. And in general we make a very good job of that. I'm not saying we have no right to ever complain or that our system is perfect because that would be silly. But in general the UK is a decent conciliation of numerous different ideas and interests and we should be glad of that

sadly voting in absurdly strong seats is a waste of space. engaging in arguments on issues is probably more effective. you can write, speak march etc but local government is what directly affects lives more than parliament and you can influence that far more. the wastefulness is astonishing. our entire system is a joke

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by MTVN

But we do actually make a difference. We decide the biggest issue of all in who governs us, not only that but we extend that right to every British citizen and also to a lot of people who are not here on a permanent basis like international students. We have regular elections at all levels, we have systems of accountability, we have means for the public to get much more involved in politics than they have been before. You could say its not a real democracy because there's only really two parties capable of governing, because we don't get a say on every issue, because politicians lie, they spin things, they go back on promises etc. etc. but those things can never be completely eradicated and it is all about trying to apply the best of democratic ideals in a practical and functional sense. And in general we make a very good job of that. I'm not saying we have no right to ever complain or that our system is perfect because that would be silly. But in general the UK is a decent conciliation of numerous different ideas and interests and we should be glad of that

Thank GOD for a voice of intellectual reason.

[kirklancaster]

Britain is still a CHRISTIAN DEMOCRACY despite the best efforts of Secular Lefties and others, and of course Democracy is imperfect, and of course Christianity is flawed, and the reason they are so, is that MAN has corrupted the purity of both.

This being so, I for one, will always still elect to live in this Christian democracy any day, than in any of the countries where Communism, Islam, or Dictatorship, is the 'political system'.

Despite the hysterical claims of anti-Christians to the contrary, Christianity is not 'forced' upon any of our citizens – either by the state or by the church, and neither is it forced upon our children in any of our State schools or other centres of learning , and perhaps these anti-Christians are confusing Christian preachers and teachers with their hate-filled Islamic counterparts.

So then, what reason is there to wish to 'destroy' the historical link between Christianity and the State in this country, when the role of the church increasingly has no longer any input into our Constitution?

The answer to the above is that there are NO reasons, and because of this, Christianity-haters remind me of those Islamic Fundamentalist cretins who destroyed the priceless ancient artefacts; the 'Nineveh Winged Bull' and the 'God of Rozhan' in Mosul, Iraq, for no other reason that 'they were there and did not fit in with their own ideology', because Christianity-haters have the same mentality.

As for Democracy, Mario Puzo wrote in 'The Godfather', that; “a lawyer with a briefcase could steal more money than a hundred men with guns” and from politicians to heads of corporations, this is true of all men in authority not just lawyers. Which is exactly why our Democracy has never been, and still isn't, 'perfect'.

Perfect or not, I for one, do not desire to live anywhere else in the world. However, in the knowledge that I have always had that there is; “something rotten in the state of Denmark”, I will continue to use any intelligence and talents that GOD has blessed me with, and utilise any of the many freedoms which this great country has afforded me - including my vote - to try to CHANGE the 'men with briefcases' in Whitehall and Threadneedle Street who corrupt the system, rather than to try and change the system itself.

For the whingers and whiners who do not feel the same, then my personal message is CLEAR;

Do not DARE to try to change this Western Democratic Christian country which the rest of us love – if you do not like living here, then you are FREE to board the next plane to Syria or some other Middle Eastern country, and use what intelligence and talents you have acquired by complete accident and chance via Evolution, to reason with and try to change the 'men with guns' who rule there.

And 'Good Luck' with that.

[MessiahCarey]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

Britain is still a CHRISTIAN DEMOCRACY despite the best efforts of Secular Lefties and others, and of course Democracy is imperfect, and of course Christianity is flawed, and the reason they are so, is that MAN has corrupted the purity of both.

This being so, I for one, will always still elect to live in this Christian democracy any day, than in any of the countries where Communism, Islam, or Dictatorship, is the 'political system'.

Despite the hysterical claims of anti-Christians to the contrary, Christianity is not 'forced' upon any of our citizens – either by the state or by the church, and neither is it forced upon our children in any of our State schools or other centres of learning , and perhaps these anti-Christians are confusing Christian preachers and teachers with their hate-filled Islamic counterparts.

So then, what reason is there to wish to 'destroy' the historical link between Christianity and the State in this country, when the role of the church increasingly has no longer any input into our Constitution?

The answer to the above is that there are NO reasons, and because of this, Christianity-haters remind me of those Islamic Fundamentalist cretins who destroyed the priceless ancient artefacts; the 'Nineveh Winged Bull' and the 'God of Rozhan' in Mosul, Iraq, for no other reason that 'they were there and did not fit in with their own ideology', because Christianity-haters have the same mentality.

As for Democracy, Mario Puzo wrote in 'The Godfather', that; “a lawyer with a briefcase could steal more money than a hundred men with guns” and from politicians to heads of corporations, this is true of all men in authority not just lawyers. Which is exactly why our Democracy has never been, and still isn't, 'perfect'.

Perfect or not, I for one, do not desire to live anywhere else in the world. However, in the knowledge that I have always had that there is; “something rotten in the state of Denmark”, I will continue to use any intelligence and talents that GOD has blessed me with, and utilise any of the many freedoms which this great country has afforded me - including my vote - to try to CHANGE the 'men with briefcases' in Whitehall and Threadneedle Street who corrupt the system, rather than to try and change the system itself.

For the whingers and whiners who do not feel the same, then my personal message is CLEAR;

Do not DARE to try to change this Western Democratic Christian country which the rest of us love – if you do not like living here, then you are FREE to board the next plane to Syria or some other Middle Eastern country, and use what intelligence and talents you have acquired by complete accident and chance via Evolution, to reason with and try to change the 'men with guns' who rule there.

And 'Good Luck' with that.

You are a supporter and believer in democracy yet want people who don't agree with it to leave the western world and go to the Middle East?



Also the UK is no longer a Christian nation since there are more non religious people here than Christians

There have been more non religious people than Christians since the early noughties

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by MessiahCarey

You are a supporter and believer in democracy yet want people who don't agree with it to leave the western world and go to the Middle East?



Also the UK is no longer a Christian nation since there are more non religious people here than Christians

There have been more non religious people than Christians since the early noughties

That's a very interesting statistic.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by MessiahCarey

You are a supporter and believer in democracy yet want people who don't agree with it to leave the western world and go to the Middle East?



Also the UK is no longer a Christian nation since there are more non religious people here than Christians

There have been more non religious people than Christians since the early noughties

Can you read correctly?

I did not state that I wanted anyone who didn't agree with our democracy to leave the western world and go to the Middle East - I actually said that those who wish to try to change this Western Democratic Christian country which the rest of us love, and those who do not like living here are FREE to board the next plane to Syria or some other Middle Eastern country.

There is a vast difference in meaning between what you state that I said and what I actually did say, but hey - don't let not being factual when quoting my posts stop you, welcome to the forum you will do well on here.

As for "Also the UK is no longer a Christian nation since there are more non religious people here than Christians" and "There have been more non religious people than Christians since the early noughties" - it all depends upon which internet source you care to refer to for your statistics.

However, once again, I never said that this was a 'Christian Nation', I said that this was a Christian Democracy, and because Christianity is still the largest religion in the UK, and as Christianity is still officially the State Religion, then I am correct in my statement.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by MTVN

Democracy is neither inherently good nor inherently bad. Like Capitalism. It should not be treated as the most virtuous system or as the end game of civilisation like it often is. It is however a good foundation which befits our country and most of the world. Of course you will ever truly get total democracy where all of society decides on every single decision because that would be ridiculous, but we have utilised the idea of democracy as best we can and integrated it into an effective and efficient way to govern. As much as we like to beat on our own democracy it is the envy of much of the world and is very successful.

Not all countries will agree of course that the Western model is best for them. IMO it's a failure of Western policy that we took the attitude that every other country in the world wants to be like us, even if they don't know it yet. Surely deep down everyone wants a Western style democracy right? But of course they don't. And it's why I'm always wary of global intervention because it carries a certain arrogance that we know best and should impose that on everyone else. Maybe democracy is just not tenable in some countries. In a lot of the Middle East, where nations are melting pots of ethnic and religious tension, it's hard to see how a secular and democratic government can emerge from all that while also trying to keep a lid on it. 'Democracy' carries such saintly connotations in this day that its a hard thing to argue against, but it is not the ultimate and infallible ideal that it can often be made out to be

Excellent post MTVN. I have nothing to add.