[Nedusa]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

The Conservative Party in its infancy, and even during its maturity, has had more than its fair share of Racists and Little Englanders who gravitated towards the party because its policies more closely aligned with their own views than the other parties.

The Labour Party, similarly has had more than its fair share of Communists and Marxists who joined it for the same reasons ; that its policies more closely aligned with their own views than the other parties.

And we will not mention that both parties harboured real TRAITORS to this country in the shape of Kim Philby, Donald Maclean, Guy Burgess and Anthony Blunt --- Oh I just did, sorry.

As for 'lying' -- EVERY PARTY LEADER has not only LIED as PARTY LEADERS but more importantly LIED while PRIME MINISTER if they've held power. Farage is a Novice by comparison.

Farage is the victim of very clever, well funded, and well placed propagandists who resurrect certain views which he may have opinionated in his past, in order to 'embarrass' him now by re-quoting them.

Is not Farage allowed to change his mind? Is a person not allowed to change their opinion?

Is a Party Leader not entitled to hold opinions which because they have been vetoed by his party in a democratic ballot, he cannot express as Party Policy?

Do we really believe that Cameron and Milliband, and EVERY Political Party leader of the past HAVE NOT held PERSONAL VIEWS which ran contrary to the party line?

There is no justification for 'scare-mongering' about what Farage may or may not do if he ever won an election, the fact is that IF he did turn out to try to implement policies which were damaging to this country (and he would be in good company if he did and only following ALL the PM's before him) then one solitary four year term is NOT sufficient for such adverse policies to be damaging at all, because he would most certainly NOT be in power for a second term if that were to be the case.

With Farage as PM, opinions as to what damaging policies he MIGHT implement are but WILD SPECULATION -- with both LABOUR and the TORIES THEIR continual damaging policies ARE DEFINITE HISTORICAL FACT.

Contrary to what some people might think, Nigel Farage came out of this debacle with a massive amount of respect and credit.

Millions of people watching this probably saw what I witnessed ie a pre planned stitch up of the UKIP candidate with a loony left wing audience, together with the other party leaders also conspiring to brow beat Mr Farage.

Well it hasn't worked and if I'm honest it has probably had the opposite effect in intended because I like most viewers sat at home saw an honest, truthful and dignified performance from Nigel Farage where he answered honestly and spoke the truth.

I think UKIP's stock will rise even further after this as people can clearly see the establishment are desparate to stop this man and his party at ALL costs.

If politics in this Country has any chance of ever re-connecting with the average person on the street, people like Nigel Farage must succeed in breaking the sham that passes now for politics.

Eventually enough people with half a brain will see he is speaking the truth and that truth shame's the mainstream political parties as it shows the dismal abject failure of politics in the UK in the last 50 years.

Let's have more debates like this as eventually the real message will start to hit home.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Cherie

Kirk no one manufactured his ill mannered behaviour last night, he is not leadership material imo

Fair comment Cherie and your opinion is as valid as anyone elses, but my post was not about last night's show, but was solely in direct response to ToySoldier's post and the points which he made, and he did not even refer to the show:

"Kirkby have to be honest and say that I'm really not convinced by the logic that he's unlikely to be lying just because he has a track record of lying. I said on another thread, Farage himself talks a good talk but something seriously stinks about a LOT of other UKIP politicians. Which makes me suspect that these are the true undercurrents of the party, and Nige has been put in the place of the "snake's head" BECAUSE he is a skilled speaker, convincing, a master manipulator.

If they were actually to gain any sort of power and their true colours come to light and are as putrid as many of us believe them to be... Then it would be a disaster. It seems like a huge gamble, to me, to "give him a chance" just because we can't be 100% sure that he's a liar like the rest of them. You must know that he probably is. He's a politician. I mean look at what everyone "believed" about the intentions of the "unproven" Clegg and a Lib Dems, and then look at what they actually did.

[edit] lol! This post is supposed to start "kirk I have to be honest", but I'm not changing it because "Kirkby" is a brilliant new nickname..."
__________________

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Nedusa

Contrary to what some people might think, Nigel Farage came out of this debacle with a massive amount of respect and credit.

Millions of people watching this probably saw what I witnessed ie a pre planned stitch up of the UKIP candidate with a loony left wing audience, together with the other party leaders also conspiring to brow beat Mr Farage.

Well it hasn't worked and if I'm honest it has probably had the opposite effect in intended because I like most viewers sat at home saw an honest, truthful and dignified performance from Nigel Farage where he answered honestly and spoke the truth.

I think UKIP's stock will rise even further after this as people can clearly see the establishment are desparate to stop this man and his party at ALL costs.

If politics in this Country has any chance of ever re-connecting with the average person on the street, people like Nigel Farage must succeed in breaking the sham that passes now for politics.

Eventually enough people with half a brain will see he is speaking the truth and that truth shame's the mainstream political parties as it shows the dismal abject failure of politics in the UK in the last 50 years.

Let's have more debates like this as eventually the real message will start to hit home.

As ever - brilliant.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Cherie

Kirk no one manufactured his ill mannered behaviour last night, he is not leadership material imo

The one thing needed to be avoided at all costs,no matter how hard the road gets,is not to attack and get at an audience or the voters.
Probably Nigel would have been seen as performing the best had he not done that but dealt with it.

Miliband just dismisses what he sees as petty getting at him and he has had almost as much, if not maybe more of that from some sections of the media than Nigel Farage.
He has never however turned on an audience before and always retains a dignified pose and response.

Nigel Farage, had a strong base coming into this debate, he had seen a good launch of UKIPs manifesto, with some strong talking pints as to the policies in it.
He was the only one from the right there last night, so had a free run to challenge all before him.

Had Nick Clegg been there, I think he would have excelled again as it seems he enjoys taking Clegg on and really going for him.

They were saying much the same as was said before however that was from the questions asked, there wasn't room to go down other routes.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

The one thing needed to be avoided at all costs,no matter how hard the road gets,is not to attack and get at an audience or the voters.
Probably Nigel would have been seen as performing the best had he not done that but dealt with it.

Miliband just dismisses what he sees as petty getting at him and he has had almost as much, if not maybe more of that from some sections of the media than Nigel Farage.
He has never however turned on an audience before and always retains a dignified pose and response.

Nigel Farage, had a strong base coming into this debate, he had seen a good launch of UKIPs manifesto, with some strong talking pints as to the policies in it.
He was the only one from the right there last night, so had a free run to challenge all before him.

Had Nick Clegg been there, I think he would have excelled again as it seems he enjoys taking Clegg on and really going for him.

They were saying much the same as was said before however that was from the questions asked, there wasn't room to go down other routes.

Again Joey - a well balanced FAIR post from you.

I agree that Farage perhaps should have exercised a little more restraint in his dealing with an - obviously - antagonistic anti-UKIP audience, but YOU and ME know only too well Joey how the most reasoned of us can let consistent, concerted antagonism get to us, especially when we are outnumbered and a lone voice crying in a deliberately non-sympathetic wilderness.

[Kizzy]

Youtube video

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

Again Joey - a well balanced FAIR post from you.

I agree that Farage perhaps should have exercised a little more restraint in his dealing with an - obviously - antagonistic anti-UKIP audience, but YOU and ME know only too well Joey how the most reasoned of us can let consistent, concerted antagonism get to us, especially when we are outnumbered and a lone voice crying in a deliberately non-sympathetic wilderness.

Farage has not been ridiculed any more or any less than any Leader and certainly no more than Ed Miliband, Farage slipped last night and his supporters know it, I don't know why you say you are a lone voice UKIP have plenty support on here

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Youtube video

Yawn.

This three year old clip is 'old hat' and has been 'raised and answered' and 'raised and answered' so many times it has lost any 'news' worthiness or 'shock value' and is tedious.

If any IMPARTIAL person actually listens to everything which Farage actually says about the NHS he is NOT proposing total Privatisation of it nor doing away with it and to claim otherwise is false.

Left Wing extremists protested about BUPA and other Private Health Initiatives for the same reasons which they opposed Grammar Schools and numerous other perfectly sane and reasonable institutions - an inane hatred of anyone they perceive to be financially 'better off' or 'more able' or 'more gifted' than they are, and a desire to 'tear down' anything which serves to measure or register such differences.

The message is 'Not To Aspire' but 'To Lower Those Or That Which Is Higher' - or in Kirk-Speak; 'Don't higher the bridge - lower the water'.

We are not all Mao Tse Tung-style grey, uniformly-clad, standard little entities we are all different.

Academically gifted children should never have to be taught to the standards of the lowest common denominator, and those with hard-earned money - whether saved by making sacrifices in material spending or earned by gaining qualifications and securing suitably well paid jobs, or whether inherited because your ancestors did either, should have THE CHOICE of PAYING for private healthcare if they so wish.

It does not damage the NHS in ANY WAY, in fact quite the opposite, because it helps alleviate the strain on its underfunded over demanded resources - both fiscal and staff wise.

And NO it does not lead to a 'Two Tier System of Healthcare' because the majority of top Health staff will not work in the NHS, choosing instead to emigrate to where the remuneration adequately rewards their skills.

The more people who can afford to take out Private Insurance Cover and who freely elect to do so, then the more the NHS can concentrate on caring for those who cannot afford to - and NHS staff will have more funds with which to elevate the standard of that care.

Farage has said NOTHING wrong in your cliched clip, but actually MAKES UTTER SENSE.

I could write a lengthy post laden with INCONTROVERTIBLE FACTS which will utterly DESTROY any credibility which the LABOUR party has, but will that be fair?

[Crimson Dynamo]

I love how no one mentioned Clegg last night as none of them rate him or see him as credible

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Cherie

Farage has not been ridiculed any more or any less than any Leader and certainly no more than Ed Miliband, Farage slipped last night and his supporters know it, I don't know why you say you are a lone voice UKIP have plenty support on here

I was not specifically referring to politics Cherie, but other subjects. But I don't agree that Nationally, Farage and UKIP are not subject to more organised propaganda than other parties.

[Phillip!]

Shame Nicola couldn't be in one of the main parties, Nigel got stepped down by her last night