[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Ammi

...I really don’t think it is more of an ‘I’m alright Jack’ attitude now, Joey...I agree with you in that one of the fundamental differences was the absence of a welfare state back in the day ..you know, when people receive acts of thought and kindness directly from someone they know or even a stranger, that touches them so much more because it’s so personal so it would obviously create much more of a community and pulling together type feeling ..and obviously that’s all there was back in the day without any state help, so the feeling would be that people were kinder/more caring back then..but equally as in now, some people/neighbours etc would have been thoughtful for struggling families and some wouldn’t have been, I don’t think that’s something you can generalise about either because it’s just people and their different characters like everything in life and like then and like now... and I think that there was probably as much ‘judgement’ back in the day/the gossipy over the garden fence type thing... it’s just that it wasn’t media/internet fed and driven but that doesn’t mean that it didn’t exist, I think that it more meant that people were more only prone to be aware of their own small community/environment and very little beyond that...so really only had a much more limited perspective...

...hmmmmm, I remember a thread once on here and I think it was a single mum who was on benefits who had spent a huge sum of money on her children at Christmas..it was quite a while ago and I think you can imagine there where many judgements of her in that and many opinions etc...but those negative judgements of her if I recall came from both people who were in work and people who weren’t...hmmmm, should she really be spending all of that money on gifts when I have a job and I can’t afford or wouldn’t do that ..?..but also from those in a not too dissimilar situation to hers because her choices were different to those that they themselves would make and there was a large amount of disapproval with that...so there will always be and has always been judgements ..but from my experience many people do still pull together and think of others as you have shown with your old TVs etc, for some it might be something similar, or maybe making sure that someone is able to do their shopping if they struggle with transport, or making sure that they’re aware of all benefits that they’re entitled to, that they have the facilities to and are able to prepare hot meals for themselves etc...and just generally doing whatever they can if they see a family struggling or someone living on their own, someone who is less able etc...those things are still around, Joey because they’re to do with people and people’s character just as much as they always were and yeah equally there are and always have been people who don’t think about others so much or what they can actively do to help ....

...the technology that we have now and the information available now is a great thing and a really positive thing but obviously there will always be some negatives as well with that, and one of those is the often negative portrayal and judgement of anyone who is unable to work for whatever reason...but virtually no one I know in real life or indeed on the forum ‘buys into’ thinking that it’s any more than the small percentage of what could be described as ‘scroungers’ than it actually is ..in the same way though, I think it’s also equally wrong to generalise in an ‘I’m alright Jack’ kind of way because that’s lumping together and judging a huge amount of people wrongly and it makes me sad that you feel that’s your overall experiences of the many people you have met... because some with less will still give and do whatever they actively can and think of others and some will not..some with more will give and do whatever they actively can and think of others and some will not and I think really that’s always been the way through times and times and times....

Good post and great read as ever Ammi.

However,I never generalise.I said the people who usually are hardline and mention benefit scroungers,never add that they know the scroungers are a minority and that the vast majority of those on benefits are not so.

The press do this all the time, highlight, one or 2 extreme cases and never highlight that they are the minority,thereby by having such things all over their front pages, they present it as the norm and not a rarity.
Which some people then pick up and sadly take as gospel.

Also, (extreme luxuries are obviously different), for people to say however,who have used the conveneince of things like pampers for their own children,to then expect people on low incomes to have to use different means, such as towelling nappies,that need to be washed, dried and used over and over,for those children in very poor families,well I think that is wrong.
What would be good for say my child,if I ever have any, is something I would hope to see available for all Parents and their children.
Just one example.

Why should a poor family or one on benefits,be expected to not only be but to have to treat their babies and children like really low class individuals.

Actually, aside from the hardliners, I don't find that attitude, I find Mothers who know some parents cannot afford pampers or huggies in a week,that help out by giving some of theirs.
They don't expect them to, or tell them they should buy towelling nappies and have to clean, them, steep them, even boil them at times then wash them and dry them.

It is the hardline attitude of 'I'm alright Jack',that helps demonise the poor and those on 'entitlements',(I actually hate the word benefits as to such individuals too),that helps fuel stronger and less caring attitudes towards such individuals via the media and in some others too.

I have seen the desperation of people going to a foodbank, in the 21st century in the UK.
They need generally to be referred to same,and can only go a few times,just for basic food items, they maybe could buy cheaper food,no doubt about that but much of the cheaper food is vile, Asda smart price food is gross,I wouldn't touch that with a bargepole or expect anyone to eat it,let alone buy it.

Buying food still has to be cooked,uless they are expetced too to have to live on cold food, if you have one those obscene pre pay meters for gas and/or electric, they are paying over the odds for the energy to do so,which causes more 'poverty' for want of a better word.

Here is an example I have been given permission to mention while out canvassing,which fortunately with help from the law firm I was at had a reasonably better outcome in the end after unfortuately 2 court cases however.
One individual who became really ill and could no longer work, got into difficulties with their energy payments.
They had pay as you go meters installed and the arrears they had were set at a figure each week as to repayments which would be taken off the funds they put on when they topped up the meters.

They were in hospital later for further operation and treatment,for over 8 weeks.
When they came out, there was no electricity or gas in the house as the payments had still been taken,despite them not topping the meters up when in hospital.
They then topped the meters up with some funds, the repayment figure was taken off the topped up amount as usual but because theyw ere in arrears on the arrears, they then found each day a further 80p was being deducted from the meter in addition to the repayment figure.

In that instance,they were back in the same boat again in a short time, either paying loads as to topping up, that left them with even less funds,or having no gas or electricity.
Those on these pre pay meters, get the worst possible deal as to energy prices yet they are ones with the least funds.

So foodbanks are needed,other help is needed too and this is a spiral that goes on day after day, week after week, year after year.
You can get on such a meter an emergency credit of I believe of £5, however once that is used, you will have to pay that back out of the topped up meter as well as the repayment figure, and then also the catch up as to arrears on arrears.

It was Kazanne, I think who said some people are bad with money and that is very true,that shouldn't be a condemnation of someone however, it should be seen as a cry for help once it is unearthed.
However there again,there are so few outlets now that really help people with this kind of scenario.
Which is why I believe, taking more as a basic out of 'entitlements' for essentials like rent,council tax, water, electricity and gas, is the way forward,not under this pay the claimants monthly as to Universal credit nonsense and leave them to get on with it.

People who are bad with money and planning,a good number should be seen as being vulnerable, leaving them to get on with it and making things harder for them should not be in any way seen as a way forward.
No govts; have done enough,this one has done even less on this situation as to energy.
These pre pay meters should be outlawed in my view,usage assessed and the average weekly payment deducted from the entitlements and paid direct to the supplier.

Most of these people don't have bank accounts either so they cannot pay by direct debit, which will cost them even more to pay cash or by pre pay meter again.
Energy costs as is the case for many average working people too, is a big contributor to helping create poverty.
The big companies do nothing and want nothing done either.

Yes food may be cheap,however it is one thing among many that for anyone with a really low income, is just one more thing in a load of minus situations a what you spend limited funds on.
Sometimes, more often than people may care to think, it does come down to, even if you have children too, do you eat or heat in the home.
What can you afford to do least.
Often it is really impossible to do both.

The difference between now and the 40s is that likely little could be done to help people in poverty whereas now it should be possible to eradicate it.
Sadly govts; do little, in this ones case nothing at all, they have even removed the funding as to places where people in difficulites could get at least advice from or even legal help when needed.

When I come across it, and it is happily not the majority, the hardline attitudes I do come across have no little or no solutions and are said in dismissive tones as to the indications that is 'the poors fault'.
When it is never as simple as that,nothing to me is either all balck or all white.
I find even more and more, situations have loads of grey areas as to them, and often in the things I have come across, it is rarely just the individual poor's fault at all.