[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

This is woefully incorrect Red.

What is the very bedrock of what we are seeing unfold in the West today is a century old agenda by a not so little faction called the Muslim Brotherhood.

Yes - The 'West' has committed more than one 'faux pas' in its meddling in the Middle East, and yes we have been duplicitous - none more so than with the Israel matter - but this is no more than one of many contributary factors and is certainly not THE cause of the appalling horrors which are shedding innocent blood and creating such misery in the West (and in the Middle East and elsewhere).

I will be glad when some British stop trying to blame us for all the world's ills and trying to get us to self-flagellate and wear hair shirts.

What does this mean? This theory is not unheard of that our involvement in the middle eastern conflicts have exacerbated situations you say so yourself...
DR suggests this is the reason for the surge in numbers and advancement of ISIS that is woeful but not incorrect.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

What does this mean? This theory is not unheard of that our involvement in the middle eastern conflicts have exacerbated situations you say so yourself...
DR suggests this is the reason for the surge in numbers and advancement of ISIS that is woeful but not incorrect.

What does this mean?

Again? I really don't know what to suggest to you to render it easier for you to understansd my posts. Perhaps Nightclasses in English Comprehension?

"This theory is not unheard of that our involvement in the middle eastern conflicts have exacerbated situations you say so yourself..."

Yes - I do "say so myself" so doesn't that render this part of your response superfluous? So why write it?

"DR suggests this is the reason for the surge in numbers and advancement of ISIS that is woeful but not incorrect."


I am confused as to the actual meaning of what you are trying to say above, because the sentence does not make sense. Sorry.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

Kizzy;8298637] "Apologists... That is a very interesting word, it for me anyway denigrates anyone who attempts to see the issue from all angles."

For you, the word 'Apologist' might do so - that is hardly surprising to me - but I USE the word in its CORRECT meaning; to define 'anyone who defends the actions of 'something' which is controversial' and when I deliberately precede the word 'Apologist' with the word 'Terrorist', then my use of the term 'Terrorist Apologist' means EXACTLY what I intend it to mean - ANYONE WHO DEFENDS TERRORISM'.

A 'Terrorist Apologist' means exactly that, and does NOT mean 'anyone who attempts to see the issue from all angles'.

Not in my logical, rational world anyway.

"'such is the cost of war' is not an adequate response to the severity of the reality of war it simplifies the horror of it, and the ramifications following any military involvement."

As everyone on here knows - I am no disciple of brevity, because, by definition, 'Serious Debates' cannot usually be satisfactorily addressed by a few 'sound bites' or copy-pasta.

However, there are occasions when it is simply not feasible to extend already lengthy posts or response posts by expounding side points or incidental issues of which - one assumes - the reader already has at least cursory knowledge.

So to accuse me of not 'giving an adequate response' etc in my comment on the 'side' issue of war, is frankly mere disingenuous deflection and 'straw clutching'

"It's not stupidity personified to question whether the west inadvertently made a bad situation worse due to said involvement, in a rational, logical world that's what people do they look at all the variables."

With respect, you are once again deliberately and dishonestly misrepresenting what I said, because I DID NOT state what you claim I stated above, I ACTUALLY clearly statedThat our intervention in) "Iraq was WRONG. Blair and Bush were WRONG, but they are but contributary factors and to claim that any mistakes which the WEST makes is RESPONSIBLE for ISIS or any other type of terrorism is stupidity personified."

What I actually said is so very easily verified on here by anyone who wishes to check and it bears NO resemblance to your ridiculous claim of what I said. But hey, I am finally getting used to your misrepresentations as a cover to obscure the fact you have no real argument - as tiresome as it is.

"There are in your analogies a consequence, had the girl and the lady been better prepared or taken an alternative route the outcome would have perhaps been different for them... Why is it so wrong to suggest that in reference to our naked streaking across Afghanistan or spilling our cash all over Syria?"

Again you illustrate by your confused and confusing text above, that you simply DO NOT UNDERSTAND what has been said, because the WHOLE point of my analogies which you allude to, is that; while both the young girl and the old woman can be said to have CONTRIBUTED to the terrible outcomes by their "ERROR OF JUDGEMENTS" - NEITHER CAN BE ACCUSED OF CAUSING THOSE OUTCOMES, and it is wrong to accuse them of such instead of laying the REAL blame were it so obviously belongs -- AT THE FEET OF THE EVIL PERPETRATORS.

Which is the same as in RED blaming the WEST instead of the evil twisted terrorist butchers.

In my logical, rational world anyway.

Now I am no more personally attacking you than you have me. I am merely responding, once again, to a response of yours to a post of mine which was NOT directed to you - a post in which you once again misrepresent and distort the truth of what I said.

It is futile to discuss if we do not start from a premise of truth.

- ANYONE WHO DEFENDS TERRORISM'.

And yet nobody has....

[Kizzy]

That's a very colonialist attitude Bitontheslide, admonishing ourselves due them being seen as uncivilised savages is odd.

[bots]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

That's a very colonialist attitude Bitontheslide, admonishing ourselves due them being seen as uncivilised savages is odd.

its not a coloniast attitude. I'm stating exactly how those countries were a few short years ago. Are you disputing that reality? If you are I suggest you do some research

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

its not a coloniast attitude. I'm stating exactly how those countries were a few short years ago. Are you disputing that reality? If you are I suggest you do some research

Many countries have governmental issues... doesn't mean anyone can storm on in does it?
Do some research on how that goes down.

[MTVN]

I do think Western foreign policy is a part of the narrative: I don't think many would deny that it's largely been a disaster in the last decade. On the other hand there are obviously the internal issues like people have talked about and its clear that a lot of these countries have been melting pots of religious, ethnic and political tension for decades that have been waiting to boil over. That's clearly the case in Syria. As of now though the only force capable of defeating IS in the country is the Syrian army. Assad might be a brutal dictator but he can't be removed without the Syrian state crumbling so he needs to be a part of the political settlement, though obviously it can never go back to business as usual. Although the West won't like to admit it, the Russian strikes have already been far more successful in pushing back IS than Western ones have because the US refuses to target IS in areas where they're fighting the Syrian army, in case it looks like they're supporting Assad. There should be a coordinated effort from the US and Russia and we should obviously be a part of that as well. Its crazy that we're bombing IS in Iraq and then are unable to in Syria even though the border between the two countries now means absolutely nothing.

[Kizzy]

Nobody is interested in any talking unless it includes throwing bombs around and closing borders, which for me is both undiplomatic and reactionary.

Is there a link for the passport info please?

[bots]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Nobody is interested in any talking unless it includes throwing bombs around and closing borders, which for me is both undiplomatic and reactionary.

Is there a link for the passport info please?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-trending-34835005

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-trending-34835005

What's it made of titanium?

[Drew.]

bring back the bunkers

[the truth]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-the-papers-34824774

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-34150408

http://www.middleeasteye.net/news/sy...lice-520642631

http://www.wsj.com/articles/paris-st...ece-1447698583

Paris Stadium Attacker Got to Europe Using Fake Syrian Passport

Man apparently posed as refugee, entered through Greek island of Leros

ATHENS—Mystery deepened over a Paris attacker who traveled to Europe via Greece and the Balkans, after French officials said Monday that the Syrian passport he had used was indeed a fake.

Authorities in France and Greece have said that fingerprints taken from the remains of a suicide bomber outside France’s national sports stadium, the Stade de France, match the prints of a man who entered Europe via the Aegean island of Leros on Oct. 3.






U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry calls the war against ISIS a "battle between civilization itself and barbarism," in comments outside the U.S. embassy in Paris during an unannounced visit Monday. Photo: Getty
.
Police on Leros registered the man under the identity in the passport he showed them: Ahmad AlMohammad, 25, from Syria. The same passport was found near the man’s body outside the stadium on Friday night.

Whoever the man was, he posed as one of the many refugees fleeing Syria’s war—including the violence of Islamic State—to enter Europe through its lightly controlled frontier in the Aegean Sea.



More

A Thriving Black Market for Fake Syrian Passports
Migrant Children Carry Hopes of Their Families
EU Migrant Distribution Will Spread Terrorism, Hungary’s Prime Minister Says
.
Greek authorities on islands such as Leros, Lesbos and Chios have confronted thousands of arrivals every day in recent months as refugees and other migrants make the short sea crossing from Turkey in inflatable boats. Short of staff and equipment, Greek police carry out only a simple procedure that involves taking people’s data and fingerprints, and sometimes asking them a few questions, before giving them permission to travel onward, deeper into Europe.

Upon his arrival in Leros, the Paris assailant was checked against police databases under his Syrian identity, Greek officials say. Nothing was found. Police on Leros didn’t spot that the passport was fake. A black market in Syrian passports has sprung up in Turkey as migrants try to gain the easiest possible entry into Europe, which has treated Syrian war refugees as more deserving of shelter in European Union countries than many other nationalities.

Greek authorities say the man using the name Ahmad AlMohammad took a ferry to the port of Piraeus, arriving on Oct. 8, before traveling north through the Balkans. Greece’s migration ministry said on Sunday that the man later reached Croatia. But after that, the trail appears to go cold. Officials in Austria, Germany, Italy and Hungary say they have no information about any man using that name entering their territory.

Adding further confusion, Serbia’s government has said a man by the same name entered its territory at the Presevo border crossing with Macedonia on Oct. 7—a date when Greek authorities say he was on a ferry.

Neither country’s authorities could explain the inconsistency. But Serbian media reported that another man carrying a passport with the same name and other details was arrested in the country on Saturday. Serbian authorities haven’t confirmed or denied those reports, which raised the possibility that multiple forged Syrian passports using the same name have been circulating.

All that is clear is that the man who landed in Greece got as far as Paris.

[Northern Monkey]

We know that a percentage of these muslims ARE terrorists.What kind of madness is it to open the flood gates to more of them?
The EU is a disaster and each country needs to start taking responsibility for its own security and not be dictated to by the dangerous EU dictators.The EU is a shambles.
These muslims need to be going to the many muslim countries in the area where they will integrate a hell of a lot better.Let them bomb the crap out of each other if that's what they want to do.Not us.

[Cherie]

We have a whole lot of home grown terrorist so I don't think closing our borders is the magic answer, the mastermind for the French attack was born in Belgium fgs, we need tighter controls though

[Ammi]

..I think that, whatever we do, whatever measures we take and whatever is put into place...as happened in Paris, we can't cover for every eventuality and if it's not this planned attack or that planned attack, then one planned attack at some point will not be thwarted, no matter how great our intelligence services are and I do believe they are...I understand also, some people's fears because of their children, I think we all feel that, it would be impossible not to but for me, my greatest fear with my own children would be that they lived their lives any differently and felt restricted in doing things that they wanted to do or became frightened to do them because of any potential possibilities....

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Ammi

..I think that, whatever we do, whatever measures we take and whatever is put into place...as happened in Paris, we can't cover for every eventuality and if it's not this planned attack or that planned attack, then one planned attack at some point will not be thwarted, no matter how great our intelligence services are and I do believe they are...I understand also, some people's fears because of their children, I think we all feel that, it would be impossible not to but for me, my greatest fear with my own children would be that they lived their lives any differently and felt restricted in doing things that they wanted to do or became frightened to do them because of any potential possibilities....

I doubt that will happen, in the initial aftermath of any terrorist attack people feel naturally cautious, but life goes on, we could be affected by any number of things in our life time, ill heath, accidents, terrorism is just one more and it has always been there, it's nothing new, no matter how much the media try to whip up a story that "life has changed forever". New York being a case in point

[bots]

ISIS want us to close our borders to the Syrian people. That gives them a captive population that they can continue to terrorise. Clearly the biggest check should be for the use of bogus passports. Anyone that fits into the high risk profile should either be refused entry or subject to further verification before entry is permitted. It may take longer to process those coming in, but so be it.

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

ISIS want us to close our borders to the Syrian people. That gives them a captive population that they can continue to terrorise. Clearly the biggest check should be for the use of bogus passports. Anyone that fits into the high risk profile should either be refused entry or subject to further verification before entry is permitted. It may take longer to process those coming in, but so be it.

[Kizzy]

That is the overarching message from the French too, that they will not allow their freedom and their liberty to be affected by terrorism.

[the truth]

the Russian plane shot down was a terrorist act, confirmed today
as for these borders, open borders across all of Europe is INSANE. Close them NOW. then take further steps to keep weeding out these people across europ. closed borders is not the answer or the solution, but its part of the solution and it makes it far far harder for them to move from place to place , with fake passports and going into hiding etc

[Ninastar]

I would make stricter policies about who enters our country, I'd give intelligence more power to act quickly, I'd ask other places of the world (US/UK/France/Russia/Germany etc) to help out a full scale invasion of taking out ISIS in all the countries they are known to kill/train/breed in.

[the truth]

Originally Posted by Chaos

I would make stricter policies about who enters our country, I'd give intelligence more power to act quickly, I'd ask other places of the world (US/UK/France/Russia/Germany etc) to help out a full scale invasion of taking out ISIS in all the countries they are known to kill/train/breed in.

yes indeed fine answers. I think your suggestions here have more chance of reducing these horrific attacks than bombing Syria. But how do we and the EU stop or even stall the free movement across borders ? when you say stricter what does that mean and how can it be applied? Perhaps more staff across all EU checkpoints is a start. The thought that lots of fake passports were strewn around the dead bodies in Paris makes my stomach turn. That must be stopped period and every single person must be vetted thoroughly. If they are remotely dodgy or if their passport cannot be verified they are NOT getting in

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by the truth

yes indeed fine answers. I think your suggestions here have more chance of reducing these horrific attacks than bombing Syria. But how do we and the EU stop or even stall the free movement across borders ? when you say stricter what does that mean and how can it be applied? Perhaps more staff across all EU checkpoints is a start. The thought that lots of fake passports were strewn around the dead bodies in Paris makes my stomach turn. That must be stopped period and every single person must be vetted thoroughly. If they are remotely dodgy or if their passport cannot be verified they are NOT getting in

We have to be careful not to jump to conclusions about these passports. They have already discovered that one of the suspects, who's passport they found, was one of the injured and an innocent bystander http://english.ahram.org.eg/NewsCont...belongs-t.aspx. Not all of the dead have been identified yet and it could well be that the Syrian passport belongs to a dead bystander rather than a terrorist.

There's a few more questions here and ones that is being scrutinised by investigative journalists. 1. Why would a terrorist remember to take his passport along on a death mission? and 2. How did a fake passport survive the blast that destroyed all other evidence? Its far more likely to of survived on someone who was standing close to the blast.

Another thing we need to understand and the thing that I find more worrying is, the majority of these terrorists were home grown, so why are we giving one, possibly two terrorists we suspect came in as refugees, so much attention?

[the truth]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

We have to be careful not to jump to conclusions about these passports. They have already discovered that one of the suspects, who's passport they found, was one of the injured and an innocent bystander http://english.ahram.org.eg/NewsCont...belongs-t.aspx. Not all of the dead have been identified yet and it could well be that the Syrian passport belongs to a dead bystander rather than a terrorist.

There's a few more questions here and ones that is being scrutinised by investigative journalists. 1. Why would a terrorist remember to take his passport along on a death mission? and 2. How did a fake passport survive the blast that destroyed all other evidence? Its far more likely to of survived on someone who was standing close to the blast.

Another thing we need to understand and the thing that I find more worrying is, the majority of these terrorists were home grown, so why are we giving one, possibly two terrorists we suspect came in as refugees, so much attention?

passport control have admitted they cannot check each and every immigrant.....worse of all it makes it impossible to catch these people when they can hop across endless borders. this is exactly how ira bombers kept escaping northern Ireland, ask any solider who worked there

[Niamh.]

omg can you all just speak about the topic, it's not that heard to not discuss eachother, is it?