[JoshBB]

Originally Posted by Adam.

She had not undergone surgery so still a man in the eyes of the law

Oh give me a break. She is CLEARLY identifying as a woman, and she even said that if she went to a male prison she would commit suicide. Why on earth did they ignore this and send her there anyway??

The legal status should have been sorted out BEFORE sending her into an environment she would be attacked, harrassed, and experience poor mental health - and suicide, the unfortunate end result.

Originally Posted by Marsh.

How do you know it's been brought up repeatedly?

According to the article she broke the rules of her sentence too, so if she wanted respect you'd think she'd do the same.

Well, we know that she said that she would kill herself if sent to a male prison - so we can logically make the assumption that she was not sent there without concern raised. And regarding your last statement, mental health of prisoners is important regardless of crimes committed.. and though she may have broken the rules of her sentence (I must have flicked past that), she is still a human being - and with transgender people, they face a lot of discrimination and why the hell she was sent there I want to know. The people responsible should be sacked or worse.

[Denver]

Originally Posted by JoshBB

Oh give me a break. She is CLEARLY identifying as a woman, and she even said that if she went to a male prison she would commit suicide. Why on earth did they ignore this and send her there anyway??

The legal status should have been sorted out BEFORE sending her into an environment she would be attacked, harrassed, and experience poor mental health - and suicide, the unfortunate end result.



Well, we know that she said that she would kill herself if sent to a male prison - so we can logically make the assumption that she was not sent there without concern raised. And regarding your last statement, mental health of prisoners is important regardless of crimes committed.. and though she may have broken the rules of her sentence (I must have flicked past that), she is still a human being - and with transgender people, they face a lot of discrimination and why the hell she was sent there I want to know. The people responsible should be sacked or worse.

Whether she identified as a girl or if she took no steps to change her body into a female body how can she being treated like a women? Female prison would be up in arms over it

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by JoshBB

Well, we know that she said that she would kill herself if sent to a male prison - so we can logically make the assumption that she was not sent there without concern raised. And regarding your last statement, mental health of prisoners is important regardless of crimes committed.. and though she may have broken the rules of her sentence (I must have flicked past that), she is still a human being - and with transgender people, they face a lot of discrimination and why the hell she was sent there I want to know. The people responsible should be sacked or worse.

Yeah, people are discriminated against for many reasons, especially in a prison environment, transgendered or not.

If people could be taken to a separate prison based on their "differences" it would be one prison per person.

As it is, this prisoner was male and therefore in a male prison.

[JoshBB]

Originally Posted by Adam.

Whether she identified as a girl or if she took no steps to change her body into a female body how can she being treated like a women? Female prison would be up in arms over it

Forced sex reassignment? No. That would be a huge step backwards, and not only that but it would be a huge breach of human & transgender rights.

Originally Posted by Marsh.

Yeah, people are discriminated against for many reasons, especially in a prison environment, transgendered or not.

If people could be taken to a separate prison based on their "differences" it would be one prison per person.

As it is, this prisoner was male and therefore in a male prison.

We are talking gender here. The UK officially recognises two, and so we are not having a 'one prison per person' type situation here. That is quite an exaggeration.

People are discriminated in prison for a number of reasons. I agree with you. We need to prevent that - and one of the ways we can do this is to place prisoners in the correct prisons so they can at least feel comfortable with their own body & self-esteem, I don't doubt issues with prejudice & harassment will still arise but it would be much worse with her in a male prison.

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by JoshBB

We are talking gender here. The UK officially recognises two, and so we are not having a 'one prison per person' type situation here. That is quite an exaggeration.

Not really. He "says" he's woman but his legal status is that of a man.

If they were serious you'd think they'd have taken steps to be recognised as their chosen gender? No.

If it was a case of wanting a different name, you wouldn't expect to be officially recognised by your chosen nickname in any court/prison/legal matter unless you'd taken steps to officially change the name on your records?

In a perfect world we could take people at face value, but then that opens up a can of worms that's difficult to close.

[JoshBB]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

Not really. He "says" he's woman but his legal status is that of a man.

If they were serious you'd think they'd have taken steps to be recognised as their chosen gender? No.

If it was a case of wanting a different name, you wouldn't expect to be officially recognised by your chosen nickname in any court/prison/legal matter unless you'd taken steps to officially change the name on your records?

In a perfect world we could take people at face value, but then that opens up a can of worms that's difficult to close.

She says she is a woman, and the legal status clearly needs changing. We can't just stick our heads in the sand and ignore their clear gender identity for the sake of what's written on paper. You seem to care more for the logistics of things than the people actually involved. I recognise that we cannot assume a gender and that we must seek their legal recognition. But when it has been brought up that said document is wrong, we must correct it before putting someone into an environment where they will not be comfortable.

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by JoshBB

She says she is a woman, and the legal status clearly needs changing. We can't just stick our heads in the sand and ignore their clear gender identity for the sake of what's written on paper. You seem to care more for the logistics of things than the people actually involved. I recognise that we cannot assume a gender and that we must seek their legal recognition. But when it has been brought up that said document is wrong, we must correct it before putting someone into an environment where they will not be comfortable.

Well when it comes to a person stating outright they're one thing and their legal status is another it begs the question why they didn't care enough to have it changed? If they feel so strongly that when it comes to being placed into a situation where people are grouped by gender, why not help themselves by changing it and stop them being grouped with the wrong people?

Then if they decide they will allow cases like this through and transfer them you open a can of worms for other people (who won't all be genuine) contradicting their legal information and "saying" it's different without it having been changed.

A line needs to be drawn.

You then have the other problem of people who feel they identify as both or neither genders or an entirely different gender entirely (You know because male and female isn't enough?)? Are we opening a third prison for them? As Kizzy said earlier, is it one rule for one and another for the rest?

[JoshBB]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

Well when it comes to a person stating outright they're one thing and their legal status is another it begs the question why they didn't care enough to have it changed? If they feel so strongly that when it comes to being placed into a situation where people are grouped by gender, why not help themselves by changing it and stop them being grouped with the wrong people?

Then if they decide they will allow cases like this through and transfer them you open a can of worms for other people (who won't all be genuine) contradicting their legal information and "saying" it's different without it having been changed.

A line needs to be drawn.

You then have the other problem of people who feel they identify as both or neither genders or an entirely different gender entirely (You know because male and female isn't enough?)? Are we opening a third prison for them? As Kizzy said earlier, is it one rule for one and another for the rest?

To your first post, I will simply refer to my previous points because I feel I've explained my view enough here. Their legal status is incorrect, and during the court they should have looked into correcting it before sending them to a male prison where they will face harassment and suicidal thoughts. It may also be worth noting that changing one's legal documents is a process that takes time, and how long this person has been 'out' as transgender is unknown from this article. I am making the assumption that they have not managed to have their legal status changed and there is no malicious intent here, along with the 'innocent until proven guilty' principle embodied within the law. We cannot draw assumptions like this without proper evidence to suggest as such.

In regards to your 'can of worms' comment, I just simply disagree. People can claim a different legal gender if they really want, but what is the result? A cisgender woman gets to go into a male prison? So what? Stupid them for attempting to exploit the system, they will be removed from the prison with time and probably convicted of fraud in said scenario.

For those outside the two gender 'norms', male and female, it would depend on the person's wishes and how the court feels appropriate. It may be wise to look into designating a few prisons (only a few) to those who identify as gender-neutral, genderqueer, or anything else not legally recognised. I'm not sure on this, but I believe a person can specify their gender as 'other' in many countries, and that could work here I think. There would not need to be many of these, since assuming 5% of the population commits a crime.. we could make an assumption that 5% of the non-binary population also commit crimes. And given the very small minority that they are, it would be very little people, if any. LGBT+ do tend to have lower crime rates anyway.