[Ammi]

.....apologies Arista, I don't know what came over me there...they're lucky to have you to defend them and realise the good job they're doing...

[Johnnyuk123]

Originally Posted by arista

Yes Spike Lee has a Outside Agenda
he is a Great Director
but not doing well now

So he is going Political
its OK him doing it
but all the fecking actors saying they may join him.


I am Sorry but a New "Black" List will be made
of the White Actors thinking of joining him.

The term Black list - is not about their Color.


Sign Of The Times

I wonder what percentage of white actors to black actors get lead roles in his movies? Anyone know?

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Johnnyuk123

I wonder what percentage of white actors to black actors get lead roles in his movies? Anyone know?

White actors getting parts in movies isn't a problem though, if it were then maybe we'd all be asking why Spike Lee doesn't give parts to white actors?

You don't need a solution to something that isn't a problem

[Niamh.]

Lets try to keep this civil please and not get insulting with eachother

[Livia]

Originally Posted by GiRTh

If he was a good enough actor and the part was well written I would have no problem with it.

So are you saying Idris isn't Bond simply due to his ethnicity? The quality of his acting doesn't matter, his experience doesn't matter, he's wrong due simply to his ethnicity? Even though all the novels have been adapted and the films being produced are brand new stories, we still cant veer far from the novels description of Bond? I hope the Broccoli family say 'stuff that' and give the job to the best actor available.

Yes, I am saying Idris would not be a good Bond simply on his ethnicity.

Have you read the books? Have you seen the situations Bond got himself into? No way would a black man be able to melt into the background like a white man could in certain situations. It has to at least be believable.

And as much as I love Idris, and think he's wonderful as Luthur (Who could equally have been played by a black or a white actor) I think he would be an awful Bond. If a black Bond was inevitable I'd rather Colin Salmon who is much more Bond-esque, in my opinion.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Livia

Yes, I am saying Idris would not be a good Bond simply on his ethnicity.

Have you read the books? Have you seen the situations Bond got himself into? No way would a black man be able to melt into the background like a white man could in certain situations. It has to at least be believable.

And as much as I love Idris, and think he's wonderful as Luthur (Who could equally have been played by a black or a white actor) I think he would be an awful Bond. If a black Bond was inevitable I'd rather Colin Salmon who is much more Bond-esque, in my opinion.

The movies have moved on from the books though, if it were still set back in 50's I might think you had a point but it isn't it's set in present times

[Jamie89]

Originally Posted by Livia

Yes, I am saying Idris would not be a good Bond simply on his ethnicity.

Have you read the books? Have you seen the situations Bond got himself into? No way would a black man be able to melt into the background like a white man could in certain situations. It has to at least be believable.

And as much as I love Idris, and think he's wonderful as Luthur (Who could equally have been played by a black or a white actor) I think he would be an awful Bond. If a black Bond was inevitable I'd rather Colin Salmon who is much more Bond-esque, in my opinion.

Bond is a fantasy though, it's probably unlikely that anyone could get into most of the situations that he gets into. And the films being produced now aren't based on the original books, they're new stories so I don't see how the situations he's in (in the books) would be relevant.

If an invisible car is believable then a black Bond certainly is

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

The movies have moved on from the books though, if it were still set back in 50's I might think you had a point but it isn't it's set in present times

The principles of spying are much the same, you can't stick out like a sore thumb, and a black Bond in rural Russia, for instance, would.

I've sat through a Royal Shakespeare Company production of Henry V where Nigerian actor David Oyelowo played the English King. Now I really rate him as an actor, but what's the point of casting him as a white king? The whole thing centred around the joke that one of Henry V's names was 'Leroy'.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Jamie89

Bond is a fantasy though, it's probably unlikely that anyone could get into most of the situations that he gets into. And the films being produced now aren't based on the original books, they're new stories so I don't see how the situations he's in (in the books) would be relevant.

If an invisible car is believable then a black Bond certainly is

I'm really wasting my time explaining anything.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Livia

The principles of spying are much the same, you can't stick out like a sore thumb, and a black Bond in rural Russia, for instance, would.

I've sat through a Royal Shakespeare Company production of Henry V where Nigerian actor David Oyelowo played the English King. Now I really rate him as an actor, but what's the point of casting him as a white king? The whole thing centred around the joke that one of Henry V's names was 'Leroy'.

But you can jump from a building to helicopter without a scratch? ( -insert mad stunt that could never happen in real life here- )

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

But you can jump from a building to helicopter without a scratch? ( -insert mad stunt that could never happen in real life here- )

There's a lot of unbelievable stuff in Bond, but it has a basis in MI6. It has to be at least in part believable, and MI6 operatives after a long discussion, have decided that 007 could not be black and have done all the things he's done. Are we going to completely forget the back story? Suddenly change him from a black man to a white man?

Like I said before, I look forward to the new version of Shaft staring Damien Lewis.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Livia

There's a lot of unbelievable stuff in Bond, but it has a basis in MI6. It has to be at least in part believable, and MI6 operatives after a long discussion, have decided that 007 could not be black and have done all the things he's done. Are we going to completely forget the back story? Suddenly change him from a black man to a white man?

Like I said before, I look forward to the new version of Shaft staring Damien Lewis.

Why would that be such a big issue, what was so important about his skin colour in the back story?

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Why would that be such a big issue, what was so important about his skin colour in the back story?

Because in the back story he's always been a white man! Just like Shaft is a black man! I don't think they should change his ethnicity either!

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Livia

Because in the back story he's always been a white man! Just like Shaft is a black man! I don't think they should change his ethnicity either!

Shaft isn't an endless series of films that constantly change actor though are they even making a new Shaft movie?

[user104658]

I do agree with Livia here; Bond can't be black unless it's a(nother) reboot. It's not that a spy can't be black, or that you couldn't make a film exactly LIKE a bond film with a black Bond, it's just that you couldn't have a black actor take on the currently established role of Bond. Because, as Livia says, it would alter the character's history, make past situations impossible, and therefore break the canon.

I had a similar discussion over in the movies forum about "black Hermione". Black Hermione in a new interpretation of the source material, i.e. a new play based on the first book and onwards, would in my opinion be 100% fine. Suddenly casting a black Hermione in a direct sequel to the already established interpretation does not work. Because that Hermione is not black.

I used the current CW series of The Flash as an example here too: Wally West has just appeared in the series, an established character from the comics, and in the show he is black whereas in others he's been white. There's no problem there at all, because this is his FIRST appearence in THIS interpretation of The Flash, he is a character based on the source character, they are not necessarily the same character... in exactly the same way that the "Smallville" Green Arrow and the "Arrow" Green Arrow are based on the same source material but are clearly not the same character.

Other examples, and sorry for all the superhero ****

Toby maguire and Andrew Garfield (and now Tom Holland) are NOT the same Spider-man; they could have cast anyone... each is a new interpretation.

Terence Howard and Don Cheadle ARE the same War Machine. He is established. And so changing the actor to a Japanese guy in Iron Man 2 would have been ludicrous; he had to "stay black".

In other words... I'm a bit of a stickler for fiction and canon, and for me, each interpretation of a character becomes as if they are that human being. Slight appearance changes / actor changes are one thing, changing something so fundamental that it would change the character's entire backstory is another thing. Tl;dr - for me, the established Bond can no more change his race than you or I can, in order for me to consider it "good fiction", and not break my immersion. The established Bond is who he is.

Now... all of that said... I wouldn't particularly have any problem with them rebooting Bond again after Daniel Craig leaves, and casting a black Bond with a different back story, and a different set of "old missions" under his belt as experience. I think the reboot worked well this time around - for those not in the know... Connery all the way up to Brosnan were all "the same Bond" - Daniel Craig is NOT that same Bond, but an entirely new character.

Having "sets" of three or four movies each with a completely "fresh" Bond would work fairly well (a reboot with each actor change), IMO. But they would have to make that clear. A new origin story for a new Bond.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Shaft isn't an endless series of films that constantly change actor though are they even making a new Shaft movie?

No, not as far as I know. I'm using it as an analogy.

And yes, the Bond films constantly change actor.... and they've ALL been white! Just like the character in the books! But now political correctness dictates we should consider a black man for the role. And if anyone objects, they're obviously a racist.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I do agree with Livia here;

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Why would that be such a big issue, what was so important about his skin colour in the back story?

Like Livia says he was in spying situations that would no longer make sense; e.g. Pierce Brosnan bond was at times undercover as a native Russian. If you then cast a black Bond as the SAME Bond his historical missions are "broken".

"Yeah I've been under-cover in Russia. Err... HOW you ask...? Err... umm... well... I sort of used to be white...".

[Livia]

Thanks TS... Even I was beginning to think I'm a racist!

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Livia

No, not as far as I know. I'm using it as an analogy.

And yes, the Bond films constantly change actor.... and they've ALL been white! Just like the character in the books! But now political correctness dictates we should consider a black man for the role. And if anyone objects, they're obviously a racist.

I never called you racist

I just disagree with your view on this one but anyway I think we're going round in circles now.

Idris for Bond!

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

I never called you racist

I just disagree with your view on this one but anyway I think we're going round in circles now.

Idris for Bond!

Not you Niamh... I like that we can completely disagree without calling each other names. You bitch.

Did I mention I met him on Monday? I've bored just about everyone else with the story.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Livia

Not you Niamh... I like that we can completely disagree without calling each other names. You bitch.

Did I mention I met him on Monday? I've bored just about everyone else with the story.

haha yeah i saw you mention it alright What was he like in person?

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Livia

Thanks TS... Even I was beginning to think I'm a racist!

I like to keep my fiction and my politics separate basically... I love both but not at the same time. THAT is the important thing. I don't give a stuff who or what they cast or who feels offended or hurt or left out by it along the way... the escapism is more important when it comes to entertainment. Big changes break the 4th wall, they remind you that it's "just a story, just people playing pretend". And that's no ****ing fun

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

haha yeah i saw you mention it alright What was he like in person?

He was expensively dressed, smelt gorgeous and had something of the animal about him. Every woman there would have done tricks for him LOL... I only got to speak to him briefly but I definitely would have if he'd asked.

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I like to keep my fiction and my politics separate basically... I love both but not at the same time. THAT is the important thing. I don't give a stuff who or what they cast or who feels offended or hurt or left out by it along the way... the escapism is more important when it comes to entertainment. Big changes break the 4th wall, they remind you that it's "just a story, just people playing pretend". And that's no ****ing fun

One of those rare occasions when I agree completely. I'm sure I can feel a disturbance in The Force.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Livia

He was expensively dressed, smelt gorgeous and had something of the animal about him. Every woman there would have done tricks for him LOL... I only got to speak to him briefly but I definitely would have if he'd asked.



One of those rare occasions when I agree completely. I'm sure I can feel a disturbance in The Force.

mmmmmmm