[user104658]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

why have we got "strict Muslim schools" in the UK?

holy mother of god

For the same reason that we have (seemingly endless numbers of) "strict Catholic schools" in the UK.

Of course, in my opinion we shouldn't have either. Religion is the antithesis of education. However I wouldn't advocate banning one until we're willing to ban all.

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

For the same reason that we have (seemingly endless numbers of) "strict Catholic schools" in the UK.

Of course, in my opinion we shouldn't have either. Religion is the antithesis of education. However I wouldn't advocate banning one until we're willing to ban all.

Not sure why you just pointed out catholic schools which incidentally cover all faiths in their RE lessons, as there as just as many strict jewish and church of England schools. Do strict muslim schools touch on other religions in their RE lessons do you know?

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Cherie

Not sure why you just pointed out catholic schools which incidentally cover all faiths in their RE lessons, as there as just as many strict jewish and church of England schools. Do strict muslim schools touch on other religions in their RE lessons do you know?

I "just" pointed out Catholic schools as they are (by far) the most widespread faith-based schools in the UK. Obviously I am aware that there are other faith-based schools. I don't believe there should be any.

I neither know nor care whether Muslim schools cover other religions in the religious education classes. It's irrelevant. Schools should touch on each religion equally and briefly, as historical fiction and superstition, along with dragons and the Minotaur.

They could cover the social and political consequences of religion more thoroughly in History, Sociology, Politics... etc.

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I "just" pointed out Catholic schools as they are (by far) the most widespread faith-based schools in the UK. Obviously I am aware that there are other faith-based schools. I don't believe there should be any.

I neither know nor care whether Muslim schools cover other religions in the religious education classes. It's irrelevant. Schools should touch on each religion equally, as historical fiction and superstition, along with dragons and the Minotaur.

Its not irrelevant at all, muslim schools should be required to promote inclusion like all other schools have too, I would like to know from someone who actually knows if this happens

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I "just" pointed out Catholic schools as they are (by far) the most widespread faith-based schools in the UK. Obviously I am aware that there are other faith-based schools. I don't believe there should be any.

I neither know nor care whether Muslim schools cover other religions in the religious education classes. It's irrelevant. Schools should touch on each religion equally and briefly, as historical fiction and superstition, along with dragons and the Minotaur.

They could cover the social and political consequences of religion more thoroughly in History, Sociology, Politics... etc.

No body forces any parent to send their school to a faith school, why would you want do deny this right to parents who want to

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Cherie

No body forces any parent to send their school to a faith school, why would you want do deny this right to parents who want to

Because I don't think children are their parents possessions and, therefore, I don't think that parents have the right to indoctrinate a child into a religion of their choosing before they're old enough to have developed abstract thought and be able to think it through rationally for themselves.

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Because I don't think children are their parents possessions and, therefore, I don't think that parents have the right to indoctrinate a child into a religion of their choosing before they're old enough to have developed abstract thought and be able to think it through rationally for themselves.

Thats fine its your opinion and you can choose to bring up your child as you see fit, I don't see why your opinion should have an impact on whether faith schools exist or not, it's nothing to do with you as you have chosen a different path

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Cherie

Thats fine its your opinion and you can choose to bring up your child as you see fit, I don't see why your opinion should have an impact on whether faith schools exist or not, it's nothing to do with you as you have chosen a different path

The world around me and my children affects their upbringing as much as my choices... it has everything "to do with me", and everyone else.

However, you are correct, my opinion has no impact on whether faith schools exist or not. As is evident in their continued existence.

[Northern Monkey]

I don't see a need to ban faith schools.I do think though that with the rise in Islamic schools that they do need to be closely monitored to make sure they are providing a balanced view of the world and not preaching hate.

The reason i don't see the need to ban them is that i went to a C of E school.

We were taught zero religion at all during lesson time apart from RE of course in which we learned about many religions.We even celebrated Diwali and other religious festivals to learn about different traditions.

The only religious things we did were the odd church visit at Harvest and morning assembly.
During my whole time there i did'nt believe in religion and never have since.It had no effect on me other than educated me.It was a very good school full of normal kids of differing faiths.
So i can say that i had a good experience and rounded education in a faith school.

As for the veil.I would let any public space such as shops choose whether they ban the veil and i would ban it from teaching,banks,airports,courts or anywhere where it is a security risk.

[AnnieK]

My son goes to a C of E school. Nothing to do with religion (he is not christened although I am, I decided to let him choose when he is old enough), the school just happened to have the best OFSTED results in the area I live and is close to where we live so in time he will be able to walk there himself and has a good circle of friends close by. Although its a faith school and he is only in reception, he has already been taught about other cultures, faiths and beliefs and so is getting a pretty rounded idea of other faiths.

[AnnieK]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Because I don't think children are their parents possessions and, therefore, I don't think that parents have the right to indoctrinate a child into a religion of their choosing before they're old enough to have developed abstract thought and be able to think it through rationally for themselves.

Just out of interest...have you told your children that "God" doesn't exist?

[user104658]

Originally Posted by AnnieK

Just out of interest...have you told your children that "God" doesn't exist?

I've told her the truth; that no one can be 100% sure, that it's statistically highly unlikely and that I personally am not religious. The rest I'm sure she'll figure out when she has an adult mind capable of comprehending the question.

Which is the major issue for me. Children's minds are not capable of abstract thought, period, they can't possibly be understanding the philosophical nature of "the creation question" and therefore anything you teach them as fact will be absorbed as fact without any critical thinking. And that is indoctrination, in a nutshell.

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I've told her the truth; that no one can be 100% sure, that it's statistically highly unlikely and that I personally am not religious. The rest I'm sure she'll figure out when she has an adult mind capable of comprehending the question.

Which is the major issue for me. Children's minds are not capable of abstract thought, period, they can't possibly be understanding the philosophical nature of "the creation question" and therefore anything you teach them as fact will be absorbed as fact without any critical thinking. And that is indoctrination, in a nutshell.

What about Father Christmas/ tooth fairy/Easter Bunny? Have they been outed?

[DemolitionRed]

Faith schools have to teach the full curriculum but that doesn't mean they always do.

Stephen Pollard writes:
'"We have reported so regularly on these schools that do not teach science, speak entirely in Yiddish and operate in buildings that do not conform to basic health and safety standards (and are often used illegally without planning permission) that I sometimes worry we bore our readers with yet more examples".

He continues: "One former pupil is quoted in the documentary as saying that the schools try to ensure that boys lack any knowledge which might enable them to leave their strictly Orthodox community: "I was told terrible things about non-Jews. In order to keep such a vast number of people enclosed, they are indoctrinating from a very young age that everything outside is bad and evil. We didn't come out with anything we could use in daily life or in the future."
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/st...imple-as-that/

Of course we have illegal Muslim schools too but its doubtful we have illegal Christian schools.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Cherie

What about Father Christmas/ tooth fairy/Easter Bunny? Have they been outed?

Let's not be silly; there is a vast difference between childhood fantasy and religious teachings.

If it helps, she also believes in Harry Potter? And that she is a tragic mudblood stuck with muggle parents, who will be whisked off to Hogwarts when she's 11.

That said, I have never answered the question "Is Santa real?" with anything other than "Well, what do YOU think?". I haven't and won't ever say "Yes. He is real."

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Let's not be silly; there is a vast difference between childhood fantasy and religious teachings.

If it helps, she also believes in Harry Potter? And that she is a tragic mudblood stuck with muggle parents, who will be whisked off to Hogwarts when she's 11.

That said, I have never answered the question "Is Santa real?" with anything other than "Well, what do YOU think?". I haven't and won't ever say "Yes. He is real."

It was a genuine question I was just interested, I know some parents who told their children there was no Santa etc so I was curious

[Anaesthesia]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I've told her the truth; that no one can be 100% sure, that it's statistically highly unlikely and that I personally am not religious. The rest I'm sure she'll figure out when she has an adult mind capable of comprehending the question.

Which is the major issue for me. Children's minds are not capable of abstract thought, period, they can't possibly be understanding the philosophical nature of "the creation question" and therefore anything you teach them as fact will be absorbed as fact without any critical thinking. And that is indoctrination, in a nutshell.

See. I am adopted, and my parents had to promise to have me baptised, which they did. My late father always believed in the value in talking; I was well versed in philosophy from a very young age, we frequently talked about reality and superstition, and faith. And I 100% believe in the power of faith.

So in place of teaching sectarian religion, could we not just put philosophy on the curriculum? 30 years on I still regularly ponder cogito ergo sum, I think therefore I am...yet there is real strength in a shared energy of faith.

I think kids would benefit greatly from being shown how to think for themselves.

There was obviously never any pressure on me to indoctrinate my children into a religion, yet I have encouraged them to be spiritual. And above all, to THINK.

It's worked with one of them, the other is a complete idiot :P

[Anaesthesia]

But back OT, really get out of here with burqas. This is the UK, feel free to wear them in a Muslim school, don't expect to wear them in an English school. Because we are still English, and we do have our own values which you should abide by, thank you.

Just out of interest, the Holy Joes from my local town (I was the grammar school nerd) had quite a bad reputation for being naughty. Even though they were apparently taught that they oughtn't sit on a boy's lap without a Yellow Pages cushion.

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Anaesthesia

See. I am adopted, and my parents had to promise to have me baptised, which they did. My late father always believed in the value in talking; I was well versed in philosophy from a very young age, we frequently talked about reality and superstition, and faith. And I 100% believe in the power of faith.

So in place of teaching sectarian religion, could we not just put philosophy on the curriculum? 30 years on I still regularly ponder cogito ergo sum, I think therefore I am...yet there is real strength in a shared energy of faith.

I think kids would benefit greatly from being shown how to think for themselves.

There was obviously never any pressure on me to indoctrinate my children into a religion, yet I have encouraged them to be spiritual. And above all, to THINK.

It's worked with one of them, the other is a complete idiot :P

..your dad sounds a bit like mine was Anaesthesia, he always used to say things like 'there are many truths', because if I had a strong opinion n something..he would give me another 'truth' or a few other truths, in the different ways and perspectives that things can be looked at, which are all needed to form opinions, I personally think/if that makes sense..and yes, talking/communication was the most important thing to him and I think of anyone that I have ever known in my life...(obviously I could be biased here..)...he was the least judgemental and without prejudice person....dads are great, eh...

..anyays, philosophy is taught in school, not only in entire lessons but also stretching across other lessons as well and very much in RE lessons...but things like Art..?...paintings and art works are discussed..what are they thinking in that painting/what were the artist's thoughts/what do you think and are what are you seeing.../feelings emotions etc and many things that are then applied to themselves and their own friendships/environment/any problems they may have etc....so there is very much philosophy in schools, right from primary school....

...on the topic of banning religion in schools, I personally don't generally believe in 'ban' or 'taboo' as an answer to anything..because it's all information and people/children should have access to information and especially in schools, which will give a balance of information/of different religions and cultures....with a worry of indoctrination, well surely without that balance offered in school, indoctrination could be more likely to happen, if a child was only offered one influence, the family home one...there again, it's all offering information for children to make educated and informed decisions in their lives, is all...maybe some schools do indoctrinate but very many don't...we tend to fear things that we don't understand/as humans, so taking an understanding away in banning, would just for me increase fears/increase prejudice/increase intolerance..rather than it be a solution to anything....

...the burqa...yes, I think that school uniform policy for children should be applied to all and that's something that is agreed by a parent in a home/school agreement when they make their school choice...the school also obviously has to make it clear in their policy that it's not an acceptable code of dress...

[Kizzy]

There isn't the money in philosophy there is in religion, or the appropriate level of social control.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

There isn't the money in philosophy there is in religion, or the appropriate level of social control.

[Anaesthesia]

Originally Posted by Ammi

..your dad sounds a bit like mine was Anaesthesia, he always used to say things like 'there are many truths', because if I had a strong opinion n something..he would give me another 'truth' or a few other truths, in the different ways and perspectives that things can be looked at, which are all needed to form opinions, I personally think/if that makes sense..and yes, talking/communication was the most important thing to him and I think of anyone that I have ever known in my life...(obviously I could be biased here..)...he was the least judgemental and without prejudice person....dads are great, eh...
.

Aye, Ammi, they are.