[Cherie]

Originally Posted by the truth

nothing much will happen. there may be some tinkering with the benefits...when uk leaves we will still be trading partners and may still sign up to some treaties....but we wont be tied up by their laws anymore

What do you mean not a lot would happen UK nationals would need visas or citizenship to live in European Union countries would they not

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by the truth

what are you on about? people have been euro sceptical for 40 years? the entire thing is a mess...have you run businesses? have you spoken to truckers? fishermen and women? steelworkers? coal workers? factory workers? farmers and agricultural workers? shop keepers? the list is endless? they've absolutely crucified us and every other business person and industry outside of Germany and Austria and france

So why will some vote to stay in and others not vote at all?

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by Cherie

What do you mean not a lot would happen UK nationals would need visas or citizenship to live in European Union countries would they not

Its likely they would be treated like any other foreigner who has no rights to live in a country.

Almost certainly their government would set an amnesty period (possibly a year) to give the Brits time to sort out the relevant paperwork.

Unless these European countries allow grandfather rights, all those retired folk who still collect British pensions may find themselves on route back to the UK and there's over a million of them.

[MTVN]

I'm still In and I think people underestimate the importance of what Cameron has done. It's funny how in this country he has been made out to fudge it and secure a deal in name only which achieves nothing when the reality is that he and dozens of advisers have spent months and even years slogging this out and its still incredibly difficult to lock down an agreement. What has been portrayed in this country as a nothing deal is seen as an outrage amongst many in Poland, Hungary and the like. The PM deserves a lot of credit IMO and its a shame that Corbyn and the SNP are more interested in attacking his negotiation attempts rather than focusing on the Remain campaign.

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by MTVN

I'm still In and I think people underestimate the importance of what Cameron has done. It's funny how in this country he has been made out to fudge it and secure a deal in name only which achieves nothing when the reality is that he and dozens of advisers have spent months and even years slogging this out and its still incredibly difficult to lock down an agreement. What has been portrayed in this country as a nothing deal is seen as an outrage amongst many in Poland, Hungary and the like. The PM deserves a lot of credit IMO and its a shame that Corbyn and the SNP are more interested in attacking his negotiation attempts rather than focusing on the Remain campaign.

I'm leaning much further in than out but I can't and won't praise Cameron because I think he's a very weak cloaked neo-liberalist who's fixated on 'austerity' at the expense of the British poor. He's the PM who will be remembered for manipulating the rule of law and turning our trusted 'Human Rights Act' into what's now called a 'Villains Charter'.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by MTVN

I'm still In and I think people underestimate the importance of what Cameron has done. It's funny how in this country he has been made out to fudge it and secure a deal in name only which achieves nothing when the reality is that he and dozens of advisers have spent months and even years slogging this out and its still incredibly difficult to lock down an agreement. What has been portrayed in this country as a nothing deal is seen as an outrage amongst many in Poland, Hungary and the like. The PM deserves a lot of credit IMO and its a shame that Corbyn and the SNP are more interested in attacking his negotiation attempts rather than focusing on the Remain campaign.

I don't think he set enough targets and also think he procrastinated on this issue for too long.
However maybe he has just asked for and can get enough to make a convincing argument to stay in.

Surprisingly I have to agree, he does command credit for this and his efforts once pushed into having to do it.
On this issue he has my full support if in the end he comes out with a recommendation to stay in.

I think he has looked at possible life outside the EU and being in the better place to do so, he doesn't like the idea of what he has seen as to being out of it really either.

[Ammi]

..I don't know if you feel it would be good to have a poll added to this, Kirk..?..a blend of younger and older votes atm...

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Cherie

Not heard enough to convince me either way at the moment.


Question to the people who are already confirmed OUT voters, what happens to Europeans currently living in the UK and UK nationals living in Europe if we were to exit

..I don't know if this is helpful at all, Cherie and it's a few year old..but I've just found this...


http://eulawanalysis.blogspot.co.uk/...riates-if.html

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Ammi

..I don't know if you feel it would be good to have a poll added to this, Kirk..?..a blend of younger and older votes atm...

A great idea Ammi - I'll ask Niamh to fix it for me She always does bless her.

[Kizzy]

If we were out of the EU more regressive laws will be passed. I say stay in.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Ammi

..I don't know if you feel it would be good to have a poll added to this, Kirk..?..a blend of younger and older votes atm...

I think if there is a poll, it would be interesting to have 5 options at least.

In - Age over 40
In - Age under 40
Out - over 40
Out - under 40
Undecided (any age)

I personally think this is very relevant. Leaving the EU has permanent consequences reaching far into the future. The people it will most impact are younger... And, perhaps controversially, I'm not sure how "right" it is for Boomers and early-GenXers to have such huge sway in that...

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Ammi

..I don't know if this is helpful at all, Cherie and it's a few year old..but I've just found this...


http://eulawanalysis.blogspot.co.uk/...riates-if.html

Thanks Ammi that was an interesting read, I think ex pats will be largely forgotten in the debate sadly

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Cherie

Thanks Ammi that was an interesting read, I think ex pats will be largely forgotten in the debate sadly

..(well they're a huge part of it, I think..)...I've also got family living and working overseas/in Europe atm...

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Ammi

..(well they're a huge part of it, I think..)...I've also got family living and working overseas/in Europe atm...

I don't know how people can have firmly made up their minds that out is best when no provision for ex pats has yet been made

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Cherie

I don't know how people can have firmly made up their minds that out is best when no provision for ex pats has yet been made

...yeah, so much to consider now that there is going to be a referendum, Cherie...that site/link sounded quite positive though, that the existing ones may not be effected at all, it'll more be anyone for the future..?../that's kind of how I read it but it still wouldn't mean that, that would be how it would be..and for instance, the flood of young/working age expats back to the UK, how would employment sustain that when it's not sustaining atm...

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Ammi

...yeah, so much to consider now that there is going to be a referendum, Cherie...that site/link sounded quite positive though, that the existing ones may not be effected at all, it'll more be anyone for the future..?../that's kind of how I read it but it still wouldn't mean that, that would be how it would be..and for instance, the flood of young/working age expats back to the UK, how would employment sustain that when it's not sustaining atm...

Exactly, but it's all speculation, it's something I want to hear a firm commitment on from the politicians during the debate, I don't feel I know enough about the pros and coins to make a decision either way at the moment

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Cherie

Exactly, but it's all speculation, it's something I want to hear a firm commitment on from the politicians during the debate, I don't feel I know enough about the pros and coins to make a decision either way at the moment

..and such an extremely important decision/vote as well...we'll get you on Question Time though Cherie to get those answers..(and we know you're the person to get them...)...

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Cherie

Thanks Ammi that was an interesting read, I think ex pats will be largely forgotten in the debate sadly

I'm sure they will - a lot of British people seem to have a bizarre notion that being in Britain is somehow superior and that everyone else is hammering at the doors to get it. It's probably inconceivable to them that there are actually native Brits living and working abroad in Europe who really don't want to come back.

[DemolitionRed]

I firmly believe Strasbourg will make an example of us. Even if we do allow EU nationals to remain in the UK, I think its highly unlikely Brits will have the same privileges. Nobody really knows what's going to happen but whatever happens, its going to be the British ex pats living in other European countries that have the most to lose if we do come out of the EU.

Worse case scenario is, the Brits would have to return to the UK and re- apply, through the embassy, for citizenship or rights to migrate. They would probably have to apply for work permits and buy expensive medical insurance. Those applying to be nationals will probably have to take an exam and prove they can speak the language.

I'm dual national but my husband isn't and so that could create problems because we planned to live back in France in a few years time. We have been watching this closely but we are as much in the dark as everyone else.

One thing I would advise any British person who's thinking of moving to another EU country is to wait until after the vote. Personally I don't think we will leave but I've been wrong before.

[joeysteele]

My worries on this referendum are now we are not going to get that much time to digest what the PM does get and then really go into the massive elements of the whole EU process.
We will not get a balanced and fair presentation from the media and for those who really are confused by it all,and that may be the majority even,how they will come to make a decision as to how to vote,or even if they will bother, I don't know.

Late last year,I and some friends found 100 people who would vote to leave and 100 people who would vote to stay in.
It's not scientific by any means but of the 100 who would vote to leave,90 would be sure to go and vote for same no matter when a referendum was held.
Whereas of the 100 who would vote to stay only 65 would be sure to vote for same no matter when the referendum was held.

I see a real risk of the UK sleepwalking out of the EU.
Which is why I think the referendum should have been held at least when council elections were being voted on but preferably at a general election to maximise the turnout as much as possible.

That is not going to be the case now obviously and so for me this is something as a result that is up in the air,which could even end up going against the majority wishes of the UK too as to who actually bothers to make the effort to vote at all.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I'm sure they will - a lot of British people seem to have a bizarre notion that being in Britain is somehow superior and that everyone else is hammering at the doors to get it. It's probably inconceivable to them that there are actually native Brits living and working abroad in Europe who really don't want to come back.

So what's the problem? If people really don't want to come back, why would they want to hold on to their British passport, Britain being such a dreadful place according to you.

There will be some kind of reciprocal arrangement I'm sure. It's hardly likely that no provision will be made for ex-pats... but they'll undoubtedly miss having a British passport and automatically being able to cross borders... although there's nothing decided as far as I know.

And anyway, is everyone assuming that no one lived or worked abroad before the borders were opened?

There will undoubtedly be a period of adjustment so people can make up their minds where they want to remain. I think this is just something that "In" voters are clinging on to as an argument when they have no more idea than anyone else right now what the answer is, but have decided to look on the bleak side as usual.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Livia

So what's the problem? If people really don't want to come back, why would they want to hold on to their British passport, Britain being such a dreadful place according to you.

Don't be childish, Livia

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Livia

So what's the problem? If people really don't want to come back, why would they want to hold on to their British passport, Britain being such a dreadful place according to you.

There will be some kind of reciprocal arrangement I'm sure. It's hardly likely that no provision will be made for ex-pats... but they'll undoubtedly miss having a British passport and automatically being able to cross borders... although there's nothing decided as far as I know.

And anyway, is everyone assuming that no one lived or worked abroad before the borders were opened?

There will undoubtedly be a period of adjustment so people can make up their minds where they want to remain. I think this is just something that "In" voters are clinging on to as an argument when they have no more idea than anyone else right now what the answer is, but have decided to look on the bleak side as usual.

Hello Livia.
I am an in person and I know now what the situation is for the UK because we have been there for 40 years.
What I haven't a clue on, is exactly what the plans are for after we leave if we do.
I hear bits of this and that, with the additional point of it will need to be also negotiated and trade deals set in place,I do not hear what conditions, what costs what other things we will have to do in order to address the big change that will inevitably come from leaving what we already have.
Even with the bad elements of the EU, we at least know the situation more clearly.

All I hear from UKIP is we will get controls of our borders back, be able to control immigration,( which I still doubt myself),and we will save a fortune out of the EU,which I actually again doubt.
I am a member of the Labour party and they have no picture really of life now outside the EU.
The Conservatives cannot give any guarantees,and they are the govt,as to what we will negotiate on and what trade deals and conditions will apply, still, to us.

So you are an out person.
Can you enlighten those with doubts, worries and fears of actually voting to leave the EU,( quite a few on this thread too),as to the guarantees that all will be far better, will not get worse and what the things are that will make all better and not worse.
Because honestly, when we have a situation where we have been in the EU for over 40 years now and despite the annoyance and frustration at times with it,at least we know where we stand and what goes on mostly.
What we as voters then need to make the right decision, is to be shown and told and have explained, what the plans are for after an exit vote and we also need to know same plans will improve things for the UK and have the guarantees of same too.

Without such guarantees, voters are then taking a massive risk of jumping into the unknown as to the UKs strong future by voting to leave.

Just as the Scots would have done had they voted for independence,they were relying on oil as a strong source to see them thought any exit from just the UK,that plan would have fallen flat on its face now almost with the changes in oil pricing which could have been devastating for the Scottish economy.

So if you could have me sit down in front of you now,( that would be nice actually), and try to persuade me to vote out, what real guarantees can you state and offer as to the UK being better now out of the EU after over 40 years.

[lostalex]

britain ain't leaving the EU. stop acting like it's a real decision. just like the sxcotland decision it's not a real decision. of course you will stay.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by lostalex

britain ain't leaving the EU. stop acting like it's a real decision. just like the sxcotland decision it's not a real decision. of course you will stay.

I wouldn't put a bet on that one Alex,I think the move is more negative than positive as to staying in now.
I still think the majority of the UK want to stay in but I am not convinced enough will bother to vote on the issue, especially outside a general election.

However, I really hope you are right.