[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

Here is a full 6 stage summary of Flexit http://www.eureferendum.com/documents/flexcit.pdf

That is actually a good read but it can go 2 ways, I found myself thinking that bit sounds really good but also thinking a lot of the time, it makes the point for staying in as well due to time frames and probable uncertainties.

It does at least outline what could be 'hoped for' and what 'might' be the way and case for out.
Still unfortunately nothing that is backed up by major forces in the World.

I like that it warns against a botched up exit strategy as to leaving the EU and even adds that would be really bad for the UK.

Appreciate the posting of it, it hasn't altered my view,I still think that in is the best thing to do but at least it is something with an idea of out though sadly still with no real facts or backup.
Which to be very fair to it, was not its intention, it was just presenting a vision, an idea of what out could and might be but not for sure will be.

Interesting read however,I do admit that.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

Here is a full 6 stage summary of Flexit http://www.eureferendum.com/documents/flexcit.pdf

Well done for posting this, but you beat me to this Red. I was about to incorporate the link and abridged sections of the report's contents in a response post.

Like you said about yourself in another post, I too have read thousands of pages from different articles on the EU and Richard North is one of the most intelligent, rational, and persuasive of 'Brexiteers' whom I have encountered.

I do feel though - as you will increasingly find now - that when it comes to Brexit on here, you can provide ALL the factual evidence, data and statistics, and logical propositions which the 'Out' camp demands, and it will either be totally ignored or paid 'lip-service' and still be dismissed, and will NOT change any 'remain' supporters mind.

I find it telling, that most 'Remain' supporters did not know about this plan nor what the 'Rotterdam Effect' is, yet some of those 'Remain' supporters are among the most fanatical.

[DemolitionRed]

I posted a very good link if you care to read it Joey. Its worded much better than I could give it justice and I don't want to post the entire article on here because its far too big but it answers a lot of questions re-Brexit.

[DemolitionRed]

I went to my local Labour party social on Friday and it was interesting listening to other left wing views regarding Brexit. The elders in the group tended to say things like, “I know there’s a lot wrong with the EU but I still think we should remain in”, whilst others, mainly the younger crowd, stated that, regardless of Corbyn, they wouldn’t be supporting the in campaign because the European Union goes against their left wing principles. It felt strange sitting with a bunch of left-wingers who were so divided. One guy said to me, “I feel almost embarrassed to be sitting with the out campaigners, after all, most people presume Brexit supporters are right wing immigrantphobes … but” he continued- “I’m a socialist at heart and I’ve always seen the EU as a racket for the rich and not compatible with my left wing vision of democracy.

it appears there is a real divide in Labour party thinking regarding the EU and Brexit.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

I went to my local Labour party social on Friday and it was interesting listening to other left wing views regarding Brexit. The elders in the group tended to say things like, “I know there’s a lot wrong with the EU but I still think we should remain in”, whilst others, mainly the younger crowd, stated that, regardless of Corbyn, they wouldn’t be supporting the in campaign because the European Union goes against their left wing principles. It felt strange sitting with a bunch of left-wingers who were so divided. One guy said to me, “I feel almost embarrassed to be sitting with the out campaigners, after all, most people presume Brexit supporters are right wing immigrantphobes … but” he continued- “I’m a socialist at heart and I’ve always seen the EU as a racket for the rich and not compatible with my left wing vision of democracy.

it appears there is a real divide in Labour party thinking regarding the EU and Brexit.

That's interesting because when I go to Labour party meetings and social gatherings, I find the younger members there, well younger than me at 24 ,are solidly for in at the ones I go to.
In fact I have been out a lot with members younger than me, all campaigning for in.
Interesting though to learn that as to your experience too.

[MTVN]

Yes I would expect that the vast majority of Labour Leavers are older members who have retained their Euroscepticism from the 70s when the left of the party didn't want to join the EEC in the first place and the early 80s when withdrawing from it was official party policy

[the truth]

lot of young kids brainwashed by corbyns willy wonka promises of golden tickets for everyone, except a man like that can never ever pay for all his tickets

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by the truth

lot of young kids brainwashed by corbyns willy wonka promises of golden tickets for everyone, except a man like that can never ever pay for all his tickets

FORGET CORBYN, TRUTH - THIS SNAKE IS THE MOST DANGEROUS MAN IN THE UK WHEN IT COMES TO BRAINWASHING OUR CHILDREN INTO BECOMING EU SUPPORTERS

Not only does ugly bastard Evan Davis preside over the most pro-EU biased programs within the pro-EU biased 'impartial' BBC, but he also annually chairs a conference for UK school children (sixth formers) called 'Your Future in Europe' where he gives the opening talk and answers questions about the EU from the children present.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

I am not the one being petty. Not for the first time on these EU threads, you made sweeping statements which are irrefutably false, and quite civilly, I asked if you could substantiate those false statements with facts - something which you cannot do, so you have elected to get confrontational and patronising instead.

Continue posting those sweeping falsehoods - you are convincing no one by them.

You will refuse anything that doesn't support your opinion because you are a militant Brexit supporter. To call me petty is silly and nonsensical, I answered your question, but as usual, you refused it because you can't accept any answer that doesn't align with your own opinion.

I'm not interested in discussing this further with you, you are incapable of debate and I don't really care for anything you have to say on the matter.

[the truth]

'Assault on societies'

Not everyone is enamoured by the potential agreement, with concerns the deal will drive down wages, weaken environmental protection and labour rights, and put the demands of big business before those of citizens.

John Hilary, executive director of campaign group War on Want, says: "TTIP is correctly understood not as a negotiation between two competing trading partners, but as an assault on European and US societies by transnational corporations seeking to remove regulatory barriers to their activities on both sides of the Atlantic."


Protests against TTIP in GermanyImage copyright Getty Images
Image caption
There is opposition to TTIP across Europe

Much of the opposition to TTIP in the UK and other EU countries including Germany, is focused on its provisions for "investor-state dispute settlement".

This procedure would allow companies to sue foreign governments over claims of unfair treatment and to be entitled to compensation.

Critics say the measures undermine the power of national governments to act in the interests of their citizens.

For example, they warn that tobacco giants could use the procedure to challenge restrictive regulations, citing a case in Australia, where Philip Morris Asia used a 1993 trade agreement with Hong Kong as the basis for a legal move to stop a change to packaging.

Poorer standards

In the UK, attention has focused on the potential impact on the NHS, with critics saying TTIP would allow private firms running NHS services to sue the government if it chose to return the services to the public sector.

Opponents have called for the NHS to be exempted from TTIP, arguing that other sectors have already secured exemptions, such as the French film industry.


NHS logoImage copyright Getty Images
Image caption
There are TTIP concerns around the NHS

The UK government says the details of how the dispute settlement would work are still under negotiation and claims there is no threat to the NHS.

Critics also worry about the impact on food standards, arguing that the EU has much stricter regulations on GM crops, pesticide use and food additives than the US.

They say the TTIP deal could open the EU market to cheaper products with poorer standards. They also warn that food giants could use investor-state dispute settlements to bully governments into dropping legislation to improve food standards.

Week of talks

Irrespective of how the UK population decides to vote on 23 June regarding EU membership, the TTIP ship sails on.

The next round of talks, the 13th, is due to open on Monday in New York and run until Friday.

[joeysteele]

I watched Andrew Neill on the Sunday Politics talking about TTIP, the general view of it was that its running into all sorts of problems and may well be likely not make it to even being asked to be ratified by the EU Nations.

Obviously Obama wants this achieved but now even in Germany,despite Merkel being in favour,protests as to it went on there too,it would seem in its present form and planning, it would be very unlikely that every EU member Country would vote it, and they will need to.
Even the Labour party here in the UK has strong reservations about it

Despite Obama's own hopes on it, things move slowly in the EU and this may not even come to fruition, as it stands at least.

[joeysteele]

All I will say is the out organisations have tried to argue there are Countries we can easily deal with as well as having some trade agreement with the EU if the UK leaves

One Country mentioned a few times was the USA, now for me I have no problem at all with the leader of the USA saying if that is really the case or not.
Which is what Obama has done.

Had he been saying something like, of course the USA is here and will give a good trading deal to the UK, his comments would have been very much welcomed I think by the out organisation.
The out organisation first brought the USA into the debate by citing it as one of the Nations we would easily get a trading deal with
Which has been proven to be untrue by the USA's current President and backed up by the person likely to succeed him too.

I see nothing wrong at all in the president putting that info and fact out there in the slightest.

I only wish we would hear from the out organisation any major Nations that are prepared to go on the record as stating clearly they will quickly give really 'good' trading deals to the UK if it votes to leave the EU.
Rather than just hoping many will and with no back up even on that hope.

[the truth]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

All I will say is the out organisations have tried to argue there are Countries we can easily deal with as well as having some trade agreement with the EU if the UK leaves

One Country mentioned a few times was the USA, now for me I have no problem at all with the leader of the USA saying if that is really the case or not.
Which is what Obama has done.

Had he been saying something like, of course the USA is here and will give a good trading deal to the UK, his comments would have been very much welcomed I think by the out organisation.
The out organisation first brought the USA into the debate by citing it as one of the Nations we would easily get a trading deal with
Which has been proven to be untrue by the USA's current President and backed up by the person likely to succeed him too.

I see nothing wrong at all in the president putting that info and fact out there in the slightest.

I only wish we would hear from the out organisation any major Nations that are prepared to go on the record as stating clearly they will quickly give really 'good' trading deals to the UK if it votes to leave the EU.
Rather than just hoping many will and with no back up even on that hope.

ha Australia got trade deals going within 10 months, Obamas blackmail threats are irrelevant scaremongering as he will be gone in 8 months anyway. trump thinks the uk should leave and will of course trade with us....Clinton is a corporate lackey but even shes not stupid enough to stop trading with 1 of Americas top 10 importer/exporters

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by the truth

ha Australia got trade deals going within 10 months, Obamas blackmail threats are irrelevant scaremongering as he will be gone in 8 months anyway. trump thinks the uk should leave and will of course trade with us....Clinton is a corporate lackey but even shes not stupid enough to stop trading with 1 of Americas top 10 importer/exporters

I wouldn't be quoting Trump on anything myself, he seems to quickly change his mind to suit the weather.
He also I feel really sure and would put a bet on it that he will not win the presidency no matter who he runs against,'if' he even gets the republican party's presidential nomination in the first place.

I will listen to Hilary Clinton any day of the week over Trump.

Whatever the deal is that the USA managed to do in 10 months is not the deal the UK may be seeking with the USA.
For as long as the USA sees any opening to a fuller deal with the EU, as the President said, concerning the UK if we leave the EU,there's no quick fixes and a deal with the USA could take a long time.
That is his Country and he has stated his word on public record that there will be no quick deal at all if we leave the EU too.

Whatever you think, he has set that out very clearly,it would appear that from what we are hearing too that Hilary Clinton endorsed that, she did not just say, the UK would be better in the EU but there will be a fairly rapid deal with them if they left.
It is clear then she and Obama are at one on this and the drive to get a major deal done with the EU at the cost of other Nations.

That may be unsavoury to take,it may even be a less than good act from the USA towards the UK, however it does mean the 'out' claim of a quick deal with the USA, is as things stand, has been blown right out of the water and is in fact extremely unlikely and will be for some time.

Yes, Obama will be gone in around 8 months time, I am really sure Trump or no republican will be the next President and that a Democrat President more likely than not Hilary Clinton will be there for the next 4 years at least after Obama goes.
So no quick deal at all with the USA,so where next of any real standing as to trading deals that are good and needed ones?

[the truth]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

I wouldn't be quoting Trump on anything myself, he seems to quickly change his mind to suit the weather.
He also I feel really sure and would put a bet on it that he will not win the presidency no matter who he runs against,'if' he even gets the republican party's presidential nomination in the first place.

I will listen to Hilary Clinton any day of the week over Trump.

Whatever the deal is that the USA managed to do in 10 months is not the deal the UK may be seeking with the USA.
For as along as the USA sees any opening to a fuller deal with the EU, as the President said, concerning the UK if we leave the EU,there's no quick fixes and a deal with the USA could take a long time.
That is his Country and he has stated his word on public record that there will be no quick deal at all if we leave the EU too.

Whatever you think, he has set that out very clearly,it would appear that from what we are hearing too that Hilary Clinton endorsed that, she did not just say, the UK would be better in the EU but there will be a fairly rapid deal with them if they left.
It is clear then she and Obama are at one on this and the drive to get a major deal done with the EU at the cost of other Nations.

That may be unsavoury to take,it may even be a less than good act from the USA towards the UK, however it does mean the 'out' claim of a quick deal with the USA, is as things stand, has been blown right out of the water and is in fact extremely unlikely and will be for some time.

Yes, Obama will be gone in around 8 months time, I am really sure Trump or no republican will be the next President and that a Democrat President more likely than not Hilary Clinton will be there for the next 4 years at least after Obama goes.
So no quick deal at all with the USA,so where next of any real standing as to trading deals that are good and needed ones?

why woud you place so much trust in a corporate lackey and lying warmonger like Clinton?

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by the truth

why woud you place so much trust in a corporate lackey and lying warmonger like Clinton?

I don't agree with your view as to how you see her, furthermore I will take heed of what she says because I firmly believe she will be the next president of the USA.
So I will listen to her and and anyone else on the World stage who says anything as to their view of or plans of dealings with the UK.

[bots]

I don't think Obama should interfere in our politics personally. If there is information to be shared on trading etc, then it should come from the relevant department in the USA - not the president.

All that said, the reason nothing can be specified by the out campaigners on trading is that it takes years to set these trade deals up ... it could easily be more than a decade.

It will take at least 2 years for us to negotiate an exit from the EU let alone actually leave. Its not an on/off switch, it could be 2 decades before the UK is trading in its own right outside of europe

This is why, personally, I think its a bit of a non debate. The world can change its nature and economic climate in 6 months, so who the hell can say with any certainty in or out what will benefit us in 2 decades time. Its just not possible.

For me its about principles. Do we want to be part of a larger inclusive group, or do we want to be on our own. Everything else really doesn't matter.

[Livia]

Obama should withdraw his trunk immediately. He's perfectly willing to encourage us to do something he would never expect the American people to do. And bringing up the WW2 war dead was despicable. Maybe next time we want something from the US - a trade agreement after we leave the EU perhaps - we can remind him of the bodies of countless thousands of British troops that litter the Far East where they died helping the USA beat Japan.

[lostalex]

Originally Posted by Livia

Obama should withdraw his trunk immediately. He's perfectly willing to encourage us to do something he would never expect the American people to do. And bringing up the WW2 war dead was despicable. Maybe next time we want something from the US - a trade agreement after we leave the EU perhaps - we can remind him of the bodies of countless thousands of British troops that litter the Far East where they died helping the USA beat Japan.

The USA has been doing it for two centuries, and we even fought the most deadly war we've ever fought to keep all the states in our Union. The US individual states are just like individual EU countries. You make no sense saying the US would never accept those terms, because actually we do and have done for hundreds of years. and it has made us the most prosperous country in the world. the USA understands the benefits of keeping states in a union. We are the best evidence that the model works.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by lostalex

The USA has been doing it for two centuries, and we even fought the most deadly war we've ever fought to keep all the states in our Union. The US individual states are just like individual EU countries. You make no sense saying the US would never accept those terms, because actually we do and have done for hundreds of years. and it has made us the most prosperous country in the world. the USA understands the benefits of keeping states in a union. We are the best evidence that the model works.

Indeed, you are right,excellent points.

I only wish I could have the confidence you have the the UK will vote to stay Alex, I really think it will be a narrow vote to leave myself.
From all I am hearing and picking up.

[the truth]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

Indeed, you are right,excellent points.

I only wish I could have the confidence you have the the UK will vote to stay Alex, I really think it will be a narrow vote to leave myself.
From all I am hearing and picking up.

Heres another report today about how horrific ttip would be for the UK

just a few titbits , this is the deal that the EU and USA are close to completing
the usa will takeover just when the eu is at its weakest on its knees over run with debts, bankruptcies, overpopulation and terrorism


http://www.independent.co.uk/news/bu...-a6999646.html

This is what youre supporting?


Opponents say the deal could give corporations the power to sue governments when they pass regulation that could hit firms' profits through an international court called the Investor-State Dispute Settlement (ISDS).


READ MORE
TTIP: Obama says trade deal should be signed by the 'end of the year'
United Nations figures show US companies have made billions of dollars by suing other governments nearly 130 times in the past 15 years under similar free-trade agreements.

Details of the cases are often secret, but notorious precedents include tobacco giant Philip Morris suing Australia and Uruguay for putting health warnings on cigarette packets

[Livia]

Originally Posted by lostalex

The USA has been doing it for two centuries, and we even fought the most deadly war we've ever fought to keep all the states in our Union. The US individual states are just like individual EU countries. You make no sense saying the US would never accept those terms, because actually we do and have done for hundreds of years. and it has made us the most prosperous country in the world. the USA understands the benefits of keeping states in a union. We are the best evidence that the model works.

Your individual states are just that, states; states belonging to the same country. They are not separate countries each with hundreds, thousands of years of culture and history and a range of languages. It's not the same as this situation at all. If political decisions were made for the USA by Canada or by Mexico, and you all had to abide by them, you'd be opposed to that no doubt. But you think it's okay for the UK. The point is that it is not the business of Obama or anyone else who is not a British citizen.

Hi Alex.

[billy123]

Still undecided myself but the work Obama has done for the exit vote is underestimated. That was a bad move by the in clan to think he would help. Patronising to say the least.

[the truth]

Originally Posted by bobnot

Still undecided myself but the work Obama has done for the exit vote is underestimated. That was a bad move by the in clan to think he would help. Patronising to say the least.

totally agree. They may think it was smart to threaten and intimidate the british public, it may even work for a few days....but on reflection it was one of the worst most heavy handed statements made by an American president to the brits ever. even Washington had more tact even though he indebted us for decades. hes now in Germany telling everyone how awesome the EU is and what a success it is? what planet is his speech writer from? I notice the pitiful bbc asked him no difficult questions on ttip, he all time record unemployment rates throughout Europe, the umpteen bankrupt nations, the absurd deal to bribe turkey into the eu to get rid of migrants, radical terrorism, the 3000 jihadis in the uk, the Schengen, etc etc

or the threat of ttip and corporate America taking over Europe including our own nhs

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by bobnot

Still undecided myself but the work Obama has done for the exit vote is underestimated. That was a bad move by the in clan to think he would help. Patronising to say the least.

Agree it was a major faux pax, I didn't like his bullying tone