[the truth]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

Switzerland is not in the EU but accepts the free movement of EU citizens.
I cannot get your point but the one thing I do know is not one of those Nations you mentioned have said the UK would be better out of the EU.

I doubt the EU would allow the USA to carve up anything,if the present EU Members, including us, have to battle hard to win every change, I cannot see anyone else really achieving that much outside the EU.
No matter how big or powerful they may be.

The argument from out has been the EU has become far too insular and even dismisses the concerns of its members,now you are saying they are going to completely cave in to the USA,yet it will need the agreement of 'all' members of the EU to even also allow that.

I just do not see that coming about at all,sorry.no way.

its already happening, have you actually studied the ttip or the mass of cross trade deals between the eu and the usa? the vast majority of which are their corporations taking over European companies , towns and cities and suing any government who stands in their way. I really suggest you read up on this urgently

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

Switzerland is not in the EU but accepts the free movement of EU citizens.
I cannot get your point but the one thing I do know is not one of those Nations you mentioned have said the UK would be better out of the EU.

I doubt the EU would allow the USA to carve up anything,if the present EU Members, including us, have to battle hard to win every change, I cannot see anyone else really achieving that much outside the EU.
No matter how big or powerful they may be.

The argument from out has been the EU has become far too insular and even dismisses the concerns of its members,now you are saying they are going to completely cave in to the USA,yet it will need the agreement of 'all' members of the EU to even also allow that.

I just do not see that coming about at all,sorry.no way.

It is coming about and like TheTruth says, some of its already here. The Neo-liberals wouldn’t dare allow a British referendum on TTIP. Four years of hard work and secret negotiations with secret votes and the race to get this fast moving train finalized before Obama steps down in 2017. Other than a revolution, the British government will not be giving us the opportunity to stop this happening.

The EU have already agreed that it will change certain laws to accommodate American trade, in fact the EU appear all too eager to please the talking heads of Washington. We have agreed to relax our pesticide restrictions to allow American pesticides to be used across Europe. America still allows cancergenic chemicals and poisons that kill valuable wild life. We have agreed to relax our laws on lead being permitted in make-up and we have signed a deal saying we will abolish EU laws on the import of GM foods and growth hormone meats.

America has shown huge interest in buying up our public health and education and selling us the Americanized private model insurance package. The cost of medicines will rocket in price. The cost to our health doesn't even bare thinking about.

[the truth]

yep thats the magnificent eu usa ttip agreement for you enlsaved 500 odd million to these stinking corporate criminals ad infinitum

[arista]

The USA President is about to Go live
in 10 Downing Street.

I wish he would just Fly back To America
another Gun killing awaits "his sitting on his hands" attitude

[DemolitionRed]

Another thing is, in the interests of transnational capital TTIP will see EU corporation law being thrown onto the bonfire. This is presently happening in Canada because they foolishly went into a trade deal (FIPA) with China. Its nothing like as big and complex as TTIP but merely one chapter out of the same book.

As for China and India supporting the idea that we should remain in the EU, China and India recognize that the spillover effect of TTIP will be of huge benefit to them because inevitably it will open up a back door for trade within the US which is financially problematic for developing countries. The spillover effect will also benefit Britain providing we are not trapped within the TTIP.

[arista]

Live now
PM talks first

[Alf]

So he's using blackmail then?

[joeysteele]

TTIP is not expected to reach any conclusion to put to the EU Nations until likely 2020.

By then it will either be vastly modified and far less controversial for those who do not like parts of it,or it will be not acceptable at all, otherwise all the EU member Nations will never ratify it.
You Dem Red have said EU nations are protesting against it,so they will never ratify it and it will need to be ratified by 'all' the EU member Nations.

Maybe you and the truth are right and it is at present at this stage of negotiation not desirable but it has a long way to go before we get to the final hurdle for it for sure.
I would certainly not be going to make a decision based again on something that 'might' happen and which is not already doing so.
It may in the end prove to be something beneficial to all once the full extent of its make up is known at the 'end of the talks and negotiation' process.

Sorry to me this is a bit of a red herring,until the full final draft and result of negotiations and talks are known in full, it can really not be considered a good or bad thing until that time.
It will have to be right and beneficial to all, for all the 27 or 28 EU members,(depending on if we leave), to support ratifying it, that's a real certainty.
Then we may still be affected by it too if we do leave in some indirect way,so again no assurances we can avoid it if we leave anyway.

Anyway I for sure know both yours and the truths's stances on the unfinished negotiations as to TTIP and I think I have now made mine very clear too.
So its a case of wait and see really as to just what is the 'actual' final drafting of any 'possible', not 'certain' agreement as to it.

[arista]

The PM said
"Democracy"

What The Feck
The E. U. is far from a Democracy

[Alf]

I've turned off, just baloney from the pair of them.

[joeysteele]

Good to see and hear Boris Johnson being at his best 'UN- statesmanlike' behaviour

[the truth]

so either we do as were told by the americans or else theyll put us to the back of the queue

[arista]

Originally Posted by the truth

so either we do as were told by the americans or else theyll put us to the back of the queue

Feck America

If we Vote Out
we are busy trading Worldwide

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

TTIP is not expected to reach any conclusion to put to the EU Nations until likely 2020.

By then it will either be vastly modified and far less controversial for those who do not like parts of it,or it will be not acceptable at all, otherwise all the EU member Nations will never ratify it.
You Dem Red have said EU nations are protesting against it,so they will never ratify it and it will need to be ratified by 'all' the EU member Nations.

Maybe you and the truth are right and it is at present at this stage of negotiation not desirable but it has a long way to go before we get to the final hurdle for it for sure.
I would certainly not be going to make a decision based again on something that 'might' happen and which is not already doing so.
It may in the end prove to be something beneficial to all once the full extent of its make up is known at the 'end of the talks and negotiation' process.

Sorry to me this is a bit of a red herring,until the full final draft and result of negotiations and talks are known in full, it can really not be considered a good or bad thing until that time.
It will have to be right and beneficial to all, for all the 27 or 28 EU members,(depending on if we leave), to support ratifying it, that's a real certainty.
Then we may still be affected by it too if we do leave in some indirect way,so again no assurances we can avoid it if we leave anyway.

Anyway I for sure know both yours and the truths's stances on the unfinished negotiations as to TTIP and I think I have now made mine very clear too.
So its a case of wait and see really as to just what is the 'actual' final drafting of any 'possible', not 'certain' agreement as to it.

Whilst I have a lot of respect for you Joey and whilst I support many of the things you support, to write another post explaining why we shouldn't be worried about something so fundamentally important and then finishing that post with a bolded "we will all have to wait and see", just feels like an attempt to belittle such an important subject.

That's fine ... debate over!

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by arista

Feck America

If we Vote Out
we are busy trading Worldwide

Are we though, can the out side really guarantee us that all other Nations will be falling over themselves to give us really lucrative deals and bypassing the EU.
I am not so sure that will be the case.

Yes we will get trade deals but will they be the quickest and best deals possible after throwing away the status and all we have as to trade within the EU now if we choose to walk away from the EU after 43 years.

With all major Countries advising the UK to remain in the EU, why should they, if we dismiss that advice and vote to leave, then fall over themselves to assist us in a big way.

I have no confidence in that at all,the sight of the UK throwing away all it has at present in the EU is in my view, more likely to bring about dismay around the World as to our allies and those Nations friendly towards us.

Outside the EU,we will be just one Country seeking deals,the rest of the World is clamouring to get deals with the EU.

The glory days of before the EEC of the 50s and 60 s are gone, no way can we even hope to never mind get them back if we leave.
I cannot see the rest of the World being bothered what happens to the UK if they see it can act as irresponsibly in throwing away the massive trading deals it has now and many other doors opening in the EU too.

Yes, we will get trade deals but at what costings to the UK and what other conditions too that we will have to accept.

I think we will be seen as going backwards by the rest of the World except by Russia maybe.
I would certainly not and will not vote to risk all we have now for just a hope of past glory days,those days are well and truly gone in the cutthroat business of trading deals in the modern World I'm afraid.

No Country has said the UK leaving would open doors to massive trade deals with them out of the EU,none.
Why is that I wonder? more than likely because most want trading deals with the EU to increase,dealing with many Nations in one go and not just one.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

Whilst I have a lot of respect for you Joey and whilst I support many of the things you support, to write another post explaining why we shouldn't be worried about something so fundamentally important and then finishing that post with a bolded "we will all have to wait and see", just feels like an attempt to belittle such an important subject.

That's fine ... debate over!

Hey, now just a minute here, I do not belittle anything.

How can a deal not yet finalised, not negotiated fully and not agreed which needs to be put eventually to all the EU nations not have to have the consideration of a wait and see,This may yet turn out to be something 'possibly' really beneficial to the UK in the end.

If all I have to do to debate is agree with you and others then sorry that is not debating but I still fail to see how proposals, and not finalised deals, can have anything other than a wait and see approach to be fair to all negotiating sides.

We will for sure need the USA more if we leave and sorry but I am not one of those anywhere in the UK who is a USA basher,I believe they often do have the UKs best interests in mind.
No one gets everything right which is why these talks and negotiations on TTIP were expected to be finalised in 2014 but now have no expectation of that until 2019 or even 2020.

Clearly loads of detail still be rejected,included and worked out.
Until I see that final presentation and finalised deal that is going to be put to the EU member Nations, that is when I will judge it, not on speculation and proposals stages only.

Fine however, debate over but sorry, I still think I am as right in my thinking as you think you are in yours too, but certainly as you wish,debating over with you then..

[arista]

The President is in a London Hall
taking Questions
from a fixed crowd


Live on SkyNewsHD and BBCNewsHD

[kirklancaster]

Demolition Red is 10,000% correct in what she maintains and her reasons are factual and irrefutable.

This thread has deviated somewhat into part general EU debate so I will not expound, but I will say that I am tired of the same old unsubstantiated views on here that seem to be allowed to pass as legitimate reasons for staying in the EU, but which are but mere recycled untrue propaganda from Meister Liar Tory Boy Dave and all the corrupt minions whom he has summoned to his cause - ALL who have vested interests in seeing the UK remain in the EU.

I CHALLENGE any REMAIN supporter on here to debate civilly and honestly in a 'Fact for Fact' debate on the EU Referendum thread or anywhere.

Facts and Statistics - NOT - Spin, Lies and Propaganda.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by arista

The President is in a London Hall
taking Questions
from a fixed crowd


Live on SkyNewsHD and BBCNewsHD

This pathetic loser should take his corrupt ass back to the USA - a country which hates him more than we do.

[Suze]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

This pathetic loser should take his corrupt ass back to the USA - a country which hates him more than we do.

I agree Kirk

[Kizzy]

who are we to take as our confidants and allies in this... if not the EU or America? We cannot be a stand alone country.
Who are our friends?!!!

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

This pathetic loser should take his corrupt ass back to the USA - a country which hates him more than we do.

Obama's quite popular outside of the US, actually.

[the truth]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

Obama's quite popular outside of the US, actually.

He used to be, he lost millions of friends yesterday, what he said was horrific

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by the truth

He used to be, he lost millions of friends yesterday, what he said was horrific

I don't blame him, we need to take a tough stance against the worrying amount of fools who want to leave EU because of 'immigrants, innit'.

We'll sink without the EU.

[arista]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

I don't blame him, we need to take a tough stance against the worrying amount of fools who want to leave EU because of 'immigrants, innit'.

We'll sink without the EU.

We will Sink with it
Dezzy