[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

I hope they get another Referendum. The Brexit has shown that, when it comes down to it, England will always have the final say.

That is what annoys me about this referendum, there are 4 supposed equal status Nations of the UK yet it is only the fact of the higher populated England that has decided this result.

So as you say England gets the final say, really it was a waste of time the Scots and Irish voting here.
It may as well have been lets just see what England thinks.
The Scots, Irish and Welsh votes combined, had a double figure percentage to 'remain'.
It was only England that totally changed that scenario form its higher populated base.

So the majorities Scotland and N Ireland registered became meaningless.
That is not a United kingdom of any standard in my opinion.

[bots]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

That is what annoys me about this referendum, there are 4 supposed equal status Nations of the UK yet it is only the fact of the higher populated England that has decided this result.

So as you say England gets the final say, really it was a waste of time the Scots and Irish voting here.
It may as well have been lets just see what England thinks.
The Scots, Irish and Welsh votes combined, had a double figure percentage to 'remain'.
It was only England that totally changed that scenario form its higher populated base.

So the majorities Scotland and N Ireland registered became meaningless.
That is not a United kingdom of any standard in my opinion.

Joey, I understand your point, but in this instance Scotland is a part of the UK, not a separate country. They voted last year to be a part of the UK. Their region voted to remain, but so did London, but the combined other regions outweighed their stance.

Scotland, as part of the UK has representation that reflects its relative population. Its only when you give it labels of a separate country that these objections can be raised. The referendum was UK, not Scotland, Wales, England and Ireland

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

Joey, I understand your point, but in this instance Scotland is a part of the UK, not a separate country. They voted last year to be a part of the UK. Their region voted to remain, but so did London, but the combined other regions outweighed their stance.

Scotland, as part of the UK has representation that reflects its relative population. Its only when you give it labels of a separate country that these objections can be raised. The referendum was UK, not Scotland, Wales, England and Ireland

They voted in 2014 to remain a part of the UK partly also because they also were told that was the best way they could also protect their EU membership.

Since that is not the case now,that referendum is made void by the false guarantee.

David Cameron never expected to hold a EU referendum,never over the previous 2 years before the election did it look like any party could get an overall majority in May of 2015 and that was the case right until polling day.

No referendum was expected, David Cameron stipulated that he would only hold an 'in' 'out' referendum on the EU, IF the Conservatives got an overall majority.

The Scots were played again and now their concerns,vote and decision on the EU referendum should be dismissed only because of the might of England.
So a promise to the Scots can be broken as long as it is England that gets all its own way.

No way, that is not democracy,not in my book.

Maybe I see this differently because I am English by birth and lived in the West Midlands until I was 18,I am also of full Irish ancestry on my Mother's side and full Scottish ancestry on my Father's.

So what is now being said as to any UK wide referendum,immaterial of how the Nations vote,if it is different from the majority of England, and just because England is higher populated, they always have to accept losing.
Despite any previous promises or guarantees.

That then makes any UK wide referendum on anything pointless in my book.

[bots]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

Maybe I see this differently because I am English by birth and lived in the West Midlands until I was 18,I am also of full Irish ancestry on my Mother's side and full Scottish ancestry on my Father's.

As I was born and raised in Scotland, no-one is more Scottish than me, but what we have from Nicola is a point of view born from her and her parties need for Scotland to be independent. She isn't capable of thinking of Scotland as a part of the UK, it always about Scotland as a separate entity.

The whole premise of the UK is that decisions are taken as a whole for the UK, not for its individual parts

[user104658]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

As I was born and raised in Scotland, no-one is more Scottish than me, but what we have from Nicola is a point of view born from her and her parties need for Scotland to be independent. She isn't capable of thinking of Scotland as a part of the UK, it always about Scotland as a separate entity.

Maybe so but this is made quite clear as being the intentions of the SNP and was in big, bold letters in all of their election campaign material. They were democratically elected at the last GE and Scottish Parliament elections to represent Scotland both in the country, and in Westminster, with voters perfectly aware of this. By considering Scotland as a separate entity - whether that is within the UK or not - She is therefore doing exactly what she was democratically elected to do.

The whole premise of the UK is that decisions are taken as a whole for the UK, not for its individual parts

It is but when a system clearly isn't working particularly fairly, the automatic reaction shouldn't be to throw up one hands and say "oh well, it is what it is". Questioning the system is perfectly valid, AND perfectly democratic.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

They voted in 2014 to remain a part of the UK partly also because they also were told that was the best way they could also protect their EU membership.

Since that is not the case now,that referendum is made void by the false guarantee.

David Cameron never expected to hold a EU referendum,never over the previous 2 years before the election did it look like any party could get an overall majority in May of 2015 and that was the case right until polling day.

No referendum was expected, David Cameron stipulated that he would only hold an 'in' 'out' referendum on the EU, IF the Conservatives got an overall majority.

The Scots were played again and now their concerns,vote and decision on the EU referendum should be dismissed only because of the might of England.
So a promise to the Scots can be broken as long as it is England that gets all its own way.

No way, that is not democracy,not in my book.

Maybe I see this differently because I am English by birth and lived in the West Midlands until I was 18,I am also of full Irish ancestry on my Mother's side and full Scottish ancestry on my Father's.

So what is now being said as to any UK wide referendum,immaterial of how the Nations vote,if it is different from the majority of England, and just because England is higher populated, they always have to accept losing.
Despite any previous promises or guarantees.

That then makes any UK wide referendum on anything pointless in my book.

With respect Joey - In the time that I have been a forum member, I have seen you crusading for many causes and railing against others, but DEMOCRACY and Scotland being part of the United Kingdom, has not been one of them - until the result of the DEMOCRATIC result of the 'UK EU Referendum' went against your personal preferrance.

As BOTS rightly says - Scotland voted to remain in the UK and all this bally-hoo now is laughable.

Wasn't it the United Kingdom and not Scotland who was accepted into the EU by the EU? and did not Scotland ENTER the EU as PART of The United Kingdom, and not in her own right as a Country?

Then it is only right and fitting that Scotland leave the EU as part of The United Kingdom'.

Bleating now about 'Election' being 'Undemocratic' because.... is just ludicrous and tiresome.

The UK has a job to do now that we are finally free of the corrupt failed and failing EU, and this complaining is draining and deflective.

If Scotland REALLY do want to leave the UK, then let them hold a referendum, and if the result is to part from us, then they should be allowed to part.

If Scotland then want to join the EU, then that is a matter for Sturgeon and Salmond and any other 'fishy sounding' Scottish politicians.

Our Democracy is not perfect, but there is nothing better to replace it, and every free country in the world has followed our lead.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

With respect Joey - In the time that I have been a forum member, I have seen you crusading for many causes and railing against others, but DEMOCRACY and Scotland being part of the United Kingdom, has not been one of them - until the result of the DEMOCRATIC result of the 'UK EU Referendum' went against your personal preferrance.

As BOTS rightly says - Scotland voted to remain in the UK and all this bally-hoo now is laughable.

Wasn't it the United Kingdom and not Scotland who was accepted into the EU by the EU? and did not Scotland ENTER the EU as PART of The United Kingdom, and not in her own right as a Country?

Then it is only right and fitting that Scotland leave the EU as part of The United Kingdom'.

Bleating now about 'Election' being 'Undemocratic' because.... is just ludicrous and tiresome.

The UK has a job to do now that we are finally free of the corrupt failed and failing EU, and this complaining is draining and deflective.

If Scotland REALLY do want to leave the UK, then let them hold a referendum, and if the result is to part from us, then they should be allowed to part.

If Scotland then want to join the EU, then that is a matter for Sturgeon and Salmond and any other 'fishy sounding' Scottish politicians.

Our Democracy is not perfect, but there is nothing better to replace it, and every free country in the world has followed our lead.

The Scottish referendum result was a sham and truly undemocratic - it was swung entirely based on what have conclusively been proven to be outright lies. The whole thing is foul.

And this is not based on me wanting to force any change its purely an account of what DID happen. I at this point happen to agree that Scottish independence hopes are currently dead in the water and it would be a major mistake to pursue independence with Europe as it currently is. For better or worse, we're with the UK going forward and need to make the best of that. I personally would not pursue Scottish independence again, UNLESS the EU dissolves entirely, at which point it would be worth looking at again. So very unlikely to be in my lifetime, I've come to accept.

That said, I do think Scotland should be heavily pursuing devo-max controls over taxation and spending.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

The Scottish referendum result was a sham and truly undemocratic - it was swung entirely based on what have conclusively been proven to be outright lies. The whole thing is foul.

And this is not based on me wanting to force any change its purely an account of what DID happen. I at this point happen to agree that Scottish independence hopes are currently dead in the water and it would be a major mistake to pursue independence with Europe as it currently is. For better or worse, we're with the UK going forward and need to make the best of that. I personally would not pursue Scottish independence again, UNLESS the EU dissolves entirely, at which point it would be worth looking at again. So very unlikely to be in my lifetime, I've come to accept.

That said, I do think Scotland should be heavily pursuing devo-max controls over taxation and spending.

It seems the establishment of 'only' England can promise Scotland anything to make it fall in line but then when it suits England,any promise can be betrayed.

That is a great advert for England I am sure, its word means nothing.

Scotland did join the EU as part of the UK, that is the point, Scotland still wants to be in the EU and voted heavily to be so.
It was promised if it stayed in the UK in 2014, that its EU position would be secure.

Now let us imagine the outcry here in this scenario, had Scotland promised they will stay in the UK on that promise,then we had the EU referendum and say the UK had voted to stay but Scotland then again called for an Independence vote.
The tune would change massively and from the English govt particularly the Scots govt would rightly be getting hammered left right and centre.

Clearly England's word is meaningless and its promises from its govt worthless, that is really the only point here.

I am absolutely fed up of English MPs and some of England's citizenship riding through any concerns and the will of the other Nations of the UK.
The point here is Nicola sturgeon has to do all she can to keep Scotland in the EU, from her much larger mandate to do so, than any mandate the UK govt has.

It stuns me that all we are hearing from Westminster is the overall result and totally discounting that 2 Nations, 50% of the Countries in the UK,voted to remain by double figure majorities.

I say again,UK wide referenda are pointless if it all only has to go England's way no matter what the other Nations say.
If I lived in Scotland and had a vote, I'd support Nicola's efforts here and I would vote for independence too now after so many broken promises to Scotland,it being taken for granted and its will ignored for decades.

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

It seems the establishment of 'only' England can promise Scotland anything to make it fall in line but then when it suits England,any promise can be betrayed.

That is a great advert for England I am sure, its word means nothing.

Scotland did join the EU as part of the UK, that is the point, Scotland still wants to be in the EU and voted heavily to be so.
It was promised if it stayed in the UK in 2014, that its EU position would be secure.

Now let us imagine the outcry here in this scenario, had Scotland promised they will stay in the UK on that promise,then we had the EU referendum and say the UK had voted to stay but Scotland then again called for an Independence vote.
The tune would change massively and from the English govt particularly the Scots govt would rightly be getting hammered left right and centre.

Clearly England's word is meaningless and its promises from its govt worthless, that is really the only point here.

I am absolutely fed up of English MPs and some of England's citizenship riding through any concerns and the will of the other Nations of the UK.
The point here is Nicola sturgeon has to do all she can to keep Scotland in the EU, from her much larger mandate to do so, than any mandate the UK govt has.

It stuns me that all we are hearing from Westminster is the overall result and totally discounting that 2 Nations, 50% of the Countries in the UK,voted to remain by double figure majorities.

I say again,UK wide referenda are pointless if it all only has to go England's way no matter what the other Nations say.
If I lived in Scotland and had a vote, I'd support Nicola's efforts here and I would vote for independence too now after so many broken promises to Scotland,it being taken for granted and its will ignored for decades.

But wasn't the SNP's campaign run very largely on the premise that Scotland could live off North Sea Oil? The oil prices have now tanked so how would an independent Scotland finance itself? You are shouting up for a cause that just doesn't have any substance in the current climate. Even Sturgeon knows this is why she is couching her language in such a cagey way and isn't screaming for an immediate referendum.

I find your bitterness over the referendum a bit sad Joey. I hope you can find peace with it over time. Part of being in a democracy is accepting that the will of the people doesn't always go your way. But we are all very lucky to live in a democracy where we can express our views and have a say. China isn't even allowed to read the internet outside of it's own country.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

The Scottish referendum result was a sham and truly undemocratic - it was swung entirely based on what have conclusively been proven to be outright lies. The whole thing is foul.

And this is not based on me wanting to force any change its purely an account of what DID happen. I at this point happen to agree that Scottish independence hopes are currently dead in the water and it would be a major mistake to pursue independence with Europe as it currently is. For better or worse, we're with the UK going forward and need to make the best of that. I personally would not pursue Scottish independence again, UNLESS the EU dissolves entirely, at which point it would be worth looking at again. So very unlikely to be in my lifetime, I've come to accept.

That said, I do think Scotland should be heavily pursuing devo-max controls over taxation and spending.

Elections are always undemocratic if you don't get the result you expect.