[y.winter]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I disagree: Bear / this series is the end result of how they've changed the show, not the cause. The reason I've been able to enjoy it so much this year is because I accepted what the show had already become and embraced it as something different. "Classic BB" died years ago... This can't possibly have been the terminal blow.

That's a bit if a defeatist approach. I would like to believe that Jason's winning, for example, had shown that the audience can disagree with C5's "new vibe"...

[user104658]

Originally Posted by y.winter

That's a bit if a defeatist approach. I would like to believe that Jason's winning, for example, had shown that the audience can disagree with C5's "new vibe"...

That makes the assumption that the "change" is purely down to C5 and an agenda. I would counter that, in fact, C5's agenda is simply to cater to the change. The audience is changing... BB is desperately trying to change with them and dragging old fans along for the ride and the effect is fascinating; i.e. Bear winning despite the fact that a large majority of This forum (of long time fans) hate him almost unreasonable amounts.

And WHY do they hate him so much? Is he really as loathsome as they scream? Is he scum? Is he the worst human alive when the world is full of very real sociopaths and "monsters"? No... he's relatively harmless, if slightly immature and mean-spirited. In my opinion, the hatred stems from that very fact that Bear represents a change that many people do not want... And THAT is what they "hate".

For me personally as always I enjoy BB for the psychology, and this show's effect on housemates (Sam, Ricky, Renee, Katie, Frankie and Aubrey standing out especially) has been interesting... But his effect on the public (e.g the forum) has been solid gold. If this series does end up being "the death of BB" (unlikely, as people say that at least once every year) then I'd be fine with that... It will have gone out poetically and closed the loop perfectly.

[Maru]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

That makes the assumption that the "change" is purely down to C5 and an agenda. I would counter that, in fact, C5's agenda is simply to cater to the change. The audience is changing... BB is desperately trying to change with them and dragging old fans along for the ride and the effect is fascinating; i.e. Bear winning despite the fact that a large majority of This forum (of long time fans) hate him almost unreasonable amounts.

And WHY do they hate him so much? Is he really as loathsome as they scream? Is he scum? Is he the worst human alive when the world is full of very real sociopaths and "monsters"? No... he's relatively harmless, if slightly immature and mean-spirited. In my opinion, the hatred stems from that very fact that Bear represents a change that many people do not want... And THAT is what they "hate".

For me personally as always I enjoy BB for the psychology, and this show's effect on housemates (Sam, Ricky, Renee, Katie, Frankie and Aubrey standing out especially) has been interesting... But his effect on the public (e.g the forum) has been solid gold. If this series does end up being "the death of BB" (unlikely, as people say that at least once every year) then I'd be fine with that... It will have gone out poetically and closed the loop perfectly.

Probably the best counter response really, even if I don't agree with some of it. Especially good the last paragraph.

The show is certainly changing, but we can't dismiss the sour grapes it's left with the old base. Only time will tell if the new base is capable of replacing it. BB needs to be careful how it re-brands itself. It's not good to damage their old expectations as that's not what viewers were originally told to expect... they may detect a farce which could damage their trust with it's existing base.

In another thread I wrote about how the experience has went sour because of the handicapping of the game itself. Another con is the excessive manipulation by production.

For you it is interesting because of the psyche element. That's the same way I can watch some low brow shows that my husband detests. I'm not really watching them the way they're meant to be watched, but I gather interesting tidbits from it... like the study of odd characters and even the fandom surrounding them.

Though, it ceases to be interesting and productive for me if that wall between the viewer and that external reality is otherwise obscured, compromised or increasingly sabotaged. This is where the line is for me. Too much production and our ability to disseminate what is going on and our ability to relate to the medium in a quality way is hampered. At worst, it destroys any sense of depth and only creates surface level tension in order to force a constant reaction from the audience. This last bit it's already crossed for me.

Don't know the UK's situation, but in the US I can find people like Bear, Marnie and Chloe on every channel (and we have a lot of TV here...). That said, to BB's credit, they are trying to re-engineer BB using a proven formula among the greater viewing audience...

[Cherie]

I think James Whale summed it up well when he said they made Bear the Star of the show, I can still watch it as it still throws up some interesting unexpected interactions like Our Sam whose response to situations was totally genuine, as was Aubrey's response to being pied, there are some glimmers in there but you have to look beyond the camera hogging and showmances I don't vote so I don't feel mugged off, I can't say it would enhance my life if Ricky had won over Bear, Bear coming runner up would still result in him getting whatever is planned for him and I will watch again in January :

And I agree with TS some of the hate thrown at HMs is totally unnecessary

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Maru

Though, it ceases to be interesting and productive for me if that wall between the viewer and that external reality is otherwise obscured, compromised or increasingly sabotaged. This is where the line is for me. Too much production and our ability to disseminate what is going on and our ability to relate to the medium in a quality way is hampered. At worst, it destroys any sense of depth and only creates surface level tension in order to force a constant reaction from the audience. This last bit it's already crossed for me.

See, I enjoy the psychology of that part too. Trying to peak behind the curtain and figure out what they're doing, how they're trying to skew it, and most importantly why... There's plenty of interest there for me. I think the issue many have is separating their emotions from it maybe? A lot about who they "like" or don't and (seemingly) endless comments on the "morality" of people who should support someone like bear. I don't like Bear as a person. But I adore the little bugger as a TV character .

[Maru]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

See, I enjoy the psychology of that part too. Trying to peak behind the curtain and figure out what they're doing, how they're trying to skew it, and most importantly why... There's plenty of interest there for me. I think the issue many have is separating their emotions from it maybe? A lot about who they "like" or don't and (seemingly) endless comments on the "morality" of people who should support someone like bear. I don't like Bear as a person. But I adore the little bugger as a TV character .

Oh I get it. I watch the Bachelor franchise for very similar reasons, it's one o the reasons I really like Unreal. I used to read Steve Carbone's/Reality Steve's spoilers on the show and his inside information into how it was edited, what actually happened, etc. Though now I prefer to watch unspoiled. I don't really believe that a large portion of them are just there for "love". The show has always embraced the controversy and been tongue in cheek about what it really was. Plenty of cynics watch it. My husband used to act like he wanted to vomit when I mentioned the show, but now sometimes on our off days he sits with me and reads/listens to other people's commentary with me... though he still pretends to be playing with his phone.

That's not why I watch BB though. I mean yes to a degree I like to see how they handle 24 hours in a 45 minute edit and the production aspect is interesting. It just felt in the past that we had generally un-obscured (with live feeds or to the best of their ability mostly without) view into a mostly un-managed reality inside the house (short of tasks and necessary roleplaying). Real people on display for the TV eating audience... even if they may wear a mask so to speak and are fine-tuning their behavior for the cameras... it was great TV.

For me, that experience was shelved for one person to dominate the show and create most of the storylines. They manipulated left and right and barely give them actual punishments anymore (endless parties) which for me... I like to see them eat gruel and suffer through physical tasks. So much good footage had to be on the cutting room floor to give him more airtime. That's really my point, what did not make it to air obscured us from the real house dynamics.

It's not even that I dislike Bear as much as there's nothing with him I haven't seen. Bear is on all the reality shows here, on the street, at the local supermarket... went to school with Bears. Been bullied by Bear. Both I walked by, shrugged and never gave a second thought. He's not compelling TV viewing for me... just base ugly human nature that un-impinged is like listening to a predictable song on broken record than compelling viewing. You found him interesting because for you he gave the show depth, but for me it's puddle depth and thus the show felt unbalanced.

Put Bear in any other series and people would be just as outraged by the antics, but he probably would've been ejected. At least if he weren't somebodies cup of tea, there are other reasons to watch and more HM's to root for .. This series felt unbearable with it's 100% focus on him.

Funny enough, I loved Perez' season, but that's because I felt like we really got to know the other HM's (Alicia Douvall, Cami, Patsy Kensit, etc). Katie Hopkins brought a lot to the table argument-wise and everyone was allowed a lot of feedback that wasn't just Perez' schoolyard antics. He was also de-illusional as all get out. He himself was also anti-bullying, so as annoying as he was at times, he did switch roles often. He was not overbearing to the degree that Bear was... though I'm sure plenty would disagree.

[Ian Coke]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

That makes the assumption that the "change" is purely down to C5 and an agenda. I would counter that, in fact, C5's agenda is simply to cater to the change. The audience is changing... BB is desperately trying to change with them and dragging old fans along for the ride and the effect is fascinating; i.e. Bear winning despite the fact that a large majority of This forum (of long time fans) hate him almost unreasonable amounts.

And WHY do they hate him so much? Is he really as loathsome as they scream? Is he scum? Is he the worst human alive when the world is full of very real sociopaths and "monsters"? No... he's relatively harmless, if slightly immature and mean-spirited. In my opinion, the hatred stems from that very fact that Bear represents a change that many people do not want... And THAT is what they "hate".

For me personally as always I enjoy BB for the psychology, and this show's effect on housemates (Sam, Ricky, Renee, Katie, Frankie and Aubrey standing out especially) has been interesting... But his effect on the public (e.g the forum) has been solid gold. If this series does end up being "the death of BB" (unlikely, as people say that at least once every year) then I'd be fine with that... It will have gone out poetically and closed the loop perfectly.

It's a completely different show from how it started, all those years ago. Series one was conceived as a psychological experiment; now it's an exercise in psychological warfare. Ultimately, the voters decide. What they obviously want is to see the housemates suffer, and in that sense, Stephen was a deserving winner. Although doesn't everyone else in there deserve points for not trying to kill him?