[the truth]

Originally Posted by Northern Monkey

On this occasion i totally agree with you.

cheers. she needs to focus her twisted eyes away from her make believe petty drivel onto the worst parts of the middle east where there truly is horrific misogyny and abuse of children , disabled and everyone who doesn't conform is a jihad to be stoned

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by the truth

cheers. she needs to focus her twisted eyes away from her make believe petty drivel onto the worst parts of the middle east where there truly is horrific misogyny and abuse of children , disabled and everyone who doesn't conform is a jihad to be stoned

That again is a discussion for another thread.

[the truth]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

That again is a discussion for another thread.

I think you are wrong, these topics are all inter connected

[arista]

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2015...tml?1445862465

[the truth]

shes class, to think anyone ever took this attention seeking spiteful bigot seriously

[Marsh.]

She makes good points.

[Jamie89]

Originally Posted by the truth

I think you are wrong, these topics are all inter connected

Yes. When I think Germaine Greer, I think Jihad

[user104658]

I'd say it's fairly evident that she is not a feminist, but is in fact a misandrist. Most of her rhetoric is anti-male rather than pro-female, and it's perfectly clear that she finds the thought of a biological male identifying as female utterly repulsive.

[Niall]

It's not really her problem as to whether she thinks transgendered woman is a woman though? She's not going through it so her entire option is irrelevant. Moreover she's not in that person's body, thinking and feeling everything that they do, so I don't get why she gets to determine whether or not they are what gender they feel they are.

Shame really. I thought she was pretty cool before, if a little brusque.

[arista]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

She makes good points.

You Are Most Wise Marsh

[bots]

Germaine Greer is an ignorant fool. Always has been

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I'd say it's fairly evident that she is not a feminist, but is in fact a misandrist. Most of her rhetoric is anti-male rather than pro-female, and it's perfectly clear that she finds the thought of a biological male identifying as female utterly repulsive.

..yeah I completely agree with that and Kaitlyn is female so she really should be pro her as well...it's 2015 and mind-sets have to progress so I think that a transgender being Woman of the Year would be a good and positive thing with that and if she deserves it on merit then well done if it is given to her...

[arista]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

Germaine Greer is an ignorant fool. Always has been

No its good to have another view

[Kizzy]

Her analogy however makes sense, in a very literal sense.
Technically transgender women live aswomen ... does that logically make them female?

[Vicky.]

I ummed and ahhed about posting this. This is a topic I am looking into deeply right now after having my eyes well and truly opened..this is not really anything to do with Greer but I didn't want to make a new thread and it 'fits' here so... So, at the risk of being flamed, and possibly even demodded as apparently my views are transphobic to some (though the word has lost all meaning, as I am about to talk about) here we go.

I have been discussing this no end on another site, WITH a few trans women aswell, who have joined in with the conversations even though at times some views expressed made them uncomfortable. They have answered a variety of questions from a 'real person' kind of view instead of the endless random 'studies' that have been done and a bunch of copy/pasting from random online articles. They have helped shape my new view on this issue. It helps to speak to the real people things like this affects, rather than listen to the rhetoric in the media that makes out the views of trans-activists are the voice of the majority of trans people.

I now believe transexualism is BDD and/or mental illness. And it took a lot to post that on a site where everyone is so liberal and 'forward thinking'. I actually think the recent influx of trans issues are a huge step BACKWARDS for feminism in some cases, and are actually very homophobic in others. Again, will explain in the following essay.

All of this talk of 'gender identity' is utter tosh. Gender identity is merely something that has been drummed into us by society. Anyone who disagrees with me, I ask you this. Instead of labeling me a bigot and disappearing..answer one question. Exactly what does 'living as a woman/man mean' WITHOUT resorting to stereotypes, and without mentioning tits, vagina or penises. If you have an answer, you are amazing as this discussion has gone on for 3 days now and not one poster of at least 1000 has been able to answer this. Not even posters who have transitioned (and in one case detransitioned too) themselves. Best anyone could come up with is the likes of being pregnant, breastfeeding, having periods..etc. All things that are impossible for any trans woman to experience. Flaws were pointed out in this, being infertile women and such. So this was also rejected as 'living as a woman'. Back to nothing...so any answers are appreciated before you reject what I said..

If a baby was born in a totally gender neutral environment, and segregated to live in a gender neutral world until adulthood..would they know the difference (besides biologically) between men and women? No. Its all stuff society inflicts on us. There have been no studies to prove this, granted, as it would be child abuse to carry out such an experiment. However, we have had cases of babies raised by animals, said baby thinks it is the same as the animals raising it, a baby raised by dogs will walk on hands and feet, will growl and bark to communicate and will bite to defend itself. Once back in the human world it has to be taught, all over again how to be human. There are documented cases of this. Ergo, a baby is born with the ability to stay alive and NOTHING else. Everything else is a direct product of its surroundings.

As such, I reject the idea of 'gender identity' meaning someone is actually the opposite sex than they were born. Gender, is a totally social construct.

Which in turn, means I reject the 'born in the wrong body' stuff, in the sense of it meaning anything to do with actual sex.

And again, because of this, I really believe that instead of deciding that a child who says for example they are a boy trapped in a girls body is trans and lining up hormones and surgeries for said child (which IS happening too...children )a better solution would be to allow them to 'live as a boy' in the sense that trans people mean when they say this. Allow said child to wear boys clothes, give them a buzzcut if they want one, allow said child to play with boys toys, allow them to embrace their feminine side, if this is what they are feeling, and basically just let them be whoever the **** they want. Ignore gender stereotypes completely.

An example of 'knowing they were in the wrong body' given was feeling uncomfortable with the idea of puberty, not wanting to go through it, not wanting breasts to develop, not wanting to grow hair on chests and such. This does NOT mean someone is trans. I was terrified of puberty to the point that when I knew it was coming I cried myself to sleep most nights. I did not want to have periods, I didn't want to develop. I wanted to keep my boyish body forever, I didn't want change. These days, this would make me a prime candidate to be lined up for hormones/counseling/surgery. But its simply not the case and shouldn't be either.

The extensive counseling the trans women (only spoke to women, no trans men showed up as far as I know) received...they felt that this was very much to do with gender stereotyping also. One even said, which upset me so much, that they wished someone had just sat them down and said 'its ok to be you, men do not have to be manly, a feminine man does not mean you are a woman' as they wouldn't have gone as far as they have (said trans woman is on the waiting list for bottom surgery in November and does not know if she wants to go through with it anymore) if this had happened. Now, THIS is the kind of thing I would expect to be discussed before beginning any kind of treatment, no? Well in the 3 examples I spoke to, this didn't happen. They may well have had a bad experience, but I have nothing to compare it to so I shall take their word until I am told otherwise.

So yeah, conclusion, born in the wrong body is false IMO. As gender is simply something we made up ourselves, where sex is biological fact. The ONLY difference between men and women is genitals, hormones and body parts. Thats where it stops. If you believe you should have a vagina, its a BDD issue. If you believe you want a penis, again BDD. There is no living as a woman/man. As soon as society accepts this, we can begin steps to make people more comfortable in themselves without the feelings of need for invasive surgery (that is regretted in some cases)


------------

I will now move onto snippets of quotes that have been posted in here and give my (new) views on them.

Originally Posted by JoshBB

She is a TERF - trans-exclusionary radical feminist.

I dont recognise TERFs as feminists at all, because they are essentially saying that the most important part of being a woman is having a vagina.

'trans-exclusionary radical feminist' just sounds ridiculous. I guess it is correct in theory but its just used as an insult, same as 'cis' which tends to be spat out rather than said. I class myself as a 'terf' now if I must put myself into a box based on opinions, but I do not class myself as a feminist. Not in the sense of feminism as it is known today, which is essentially man hating. I do not however, think the most important part of being a woman is having a vagina. I believe the ONLY part of being a woman is having a vagina, in a sense. As explained above.

I know trans people get abuse for being what they are, and that is disgusting. But this is not a one way street. I know you (not you personally, anyone reading this) probably won't read this site because of the name of it, but I will post it anyway. https://terfisaslur.com/

This site documents a little of what goes on in the social media world, and I am sure you will see the abuse is definitely not one sided. I specifically refer you to the section '4. Cotton ceiling and autogynephilia'. I cannot get the concept of 'cotton ceiling' of my mind as it is just pure vile. This page is full of posts such as the following

"cisbians using 'I'm just not attracted to penises'

Except noone is attracted to penises. Noone is attracted to vaginas. Noone is attracted to genitals. You're attracted to the person.

When you first see someone you're attracted to them as a person. You don't know what genitals they have, implying you can tell a trans person from a cis person is cissexist and would force you to admit you are attracted to trans people before you find out they're trans.

So ask yourself why you'd be attracted to a transperson until you find out they're trans or what genitals they have?

Hint. Its because you're a sad little transmisogynist and you deserve to have your teeth beaten in

Essentially, broken down...lesbians should **** a penis or they are bigots. No. Sorry I don't go with that at all. And this is bullying, and ****ing homophobic to boot. The decision to allow anyone who 'identifies' as a woman to 'be' a woman, even while retaining a dick is what has lead to this. Do you think this is acceptable? If you allow anyone to identify however they like, you are condoning this and accepting it as truth... This was the main thing that made me think 'wtf, my views are messed up' tbh. I should add to this, the 'women' using these kind of insults are either 'trans women' who have remained with a penis and transactivists (who may or may not be trans themselves) and random blokes who have decided that they think they are female (or are using it as an excuse). These people believe lesbians should shag them and they should be given access to women only spaces. This is where the current trans movement is taking us, and I disagree with it in its entirety.

Also to take the view of 'genitals don't matter, the person matters'...surely we are to accept that...a person is a person. Thats it. So again, kinda disproving any of the 'born in the wrong' body stuff using their own quotes...

The rest of the site is an interesting read and kinda shows how some 'trans' think of cis' people. Utter hatred, that we have been told is only ever directed AT them. Oddly enough, yet again the trans women I spoke to have not witnessed hate towards them, not in the sense of getting messages telling them to die or wishing them harm, something that they say (and is documented above really) is prominent the other way around. They also reject the concept of cotton ceiling and use the term coercive rape, which is EXACTLY what cotton ceiling is. They tell me the cotton ceiling concept is widely accepted in the trans female world, by those who chose to keep their male bodies..and also that transfemale on transfemale relationship/sex is generally rejected. Why is this, if everyone else is to accept that you are females I wonder? If everyone else is expected to believe you are a lesbian with a penis, why is the idea of sleeping with another lesbian with a penis such a turn off to you? Its only genitals, as you say... Sorry, lesbians with penises do not exist. That is known as a straight man.

You may notice at this point I have spoken mostly about male to female trans. This is because female to male, do not expect gay men to **** them. Gay men find the idea disgusting (as they do not want to shag a vagina, essentially). Owen Jones responded with disgust at the idea he would sleep with a transman who still had a vagina. Fair enough. I understand that...gays don't do vagina, but then how can he then compare lesbians who express concerns over the cotton ceiling concept to homophobic men expressing “gay panic”. WHY should lesbian women be expected to give blowjobs to men who 'think' they are women, and shag dicks, while giving a free pass to gay men in the opposite situation?

I may come across as a raving feminist in this..but this is mainly a matter about womens rights, as as hard as this is for these guys to understand lesbians ARE WOMEN. Lesbians should feel under no pressure to sleep with guys, however the guy dresses himself up.

To accept the new 'anyone who thinks they are this, is' rhetoric is to condone behavior such as the above, where men on a power trip USE the trans-umbrella to intimidate women. It is accepting the blatant homophobic views such 'trans' have and condoning them. If acknowledging this makes me transphobic, I really couldn't give a flying crap. If you accept that everyone is what they think they are and anyone who disagrees is transphobic (which is the current line), lets assume you are a straight guy. You get chatting to a girl, take them home and discover she actually has a dick. She tells you she has a female brain though. Do you carry on? I doubt many would say yes honestly. Now we have to remember, people are people..genitals mean nothing. You originally being attracted to the person until you find out they are 'trans', makes you transphobic. Not nice eh..and makes no ****ing sense. You do not truly believe that people who 'think' they are something actually are if you would not carry on in a situation as above. Hmm...so you now recognize there is a difference between a trans woman and a woman you say?

Originally Posted by Livia

No transgender woman has the XX chromosome so clinically, as they still have only XY chromosomes and not XX chromosomes they are not biologically women. That doesn't mean to say that if they have a need to live their lives as a women they shouldn't do that.

EXACTLY, but again, we are back to what IS living as a woman? Dressing like one? People should be able to dress however they wish to without being told they are dressing like a girl/boy. I don't want to get into repeating myself as this post will be long enough to begin with...

Originally Posted by Jamie89

Yes but gender identity isn't something thats assigned by chomosones so it comes down to how you chose to define man and woman I suppose

Yup...social concepts, again.


------------------




In short really, as I know I have waffled on a lot here..I no longer believe the born in the wrong body rhetoric. I do not believe in female brains and male brains (no this hasn't been proven, despite what people shout..opposite is more true tbh). I believe gender is an entirely social concept and we would do so much more good breaking down said social stereotypes than we are doing by offering surgeries and attempting to refine the words 'male' and 'female'. I believe aspects of the current position on transpeople are homophobic towards lesbians. And other aspects are dragging us back hundreds of years of progress in womens rights.

Until we have a definition on what 'trans' actually is, I reject it all completely. I refuse to play along with this ridiculous notion that anyone who thinks they are something is that. This meaning a guy who simply says he is a girl in his head, is NOT a girl. Sorry, they are not. And vice versa.

We do not treat anorexia by giving out lipo to the anorexic person. We do not agree with them that yes, they are fat and should lose some weight, then help them to do so. We support them in all ways we can, but do not indulge their illness.

Trans-activists time would be better used on breaking down social stereotypes than on trying to re-define the meaning of the word woman or man. They need to LISTEN to the actual trans community also, especially about the matters that are prominent in the media. Pushing their own agenda while drowning out the voices who are against them is wrong. The way things are going are just going to breed more hatred. From both sides and it will not end well.

We need to be able to have a proper discussion about stuff without people being shouted down as bigots for asking questions and expressing opinions. I do not class expressing genuine concern for people being told they are trans or putting across my own views in this way as being transphobic. To me, transphobia is actively hating trans people, wishing them harm and treating them different to any other person. I will NEVER treat a trans person as anything less than any other human.

I hope the trans women I have spoken about in here do not mind this, but here are links to their blogs and such, which are well worth a read. They go deeper into the stuff I have written, and cover other areas..and much more eloquently than I could ever do.

http://transavant.tumblr.com/archive
http://mirandayardley.com/

Miranda Yardley is a wonderful trans woman who has taken a LOT of abuse for daring to speak out against the transactivists and say 'this is not what we want'. I do not know too much about Helen but she has spoken with me and many others about her own personal experiences and the views of other trans people she knows.

This is only my opinion, but I do feel things should be able to be spoken about without the shutting down of all discussion with the scream of 'transphobia' just because someone doesn't think a guy who puts on a skirt and says he is a woman is a woman.

Peace out

/puts on flameproof suit

[Vicky.]

I see jack reading. I am going to get a proper debate/convo for sure

[Marsh.]

Renee vs Bear teas

[T*]

We do not treat anorexia by giving out lipo to the anorexic person. We do not agree with them that yes, they are fat and should lose some weight, then help them to do so. We support them in all ways we can, but do not indulge their illness.

Apples to Oranges.
It's pretty damn sad to see this TBH. This is not the same.
At least if the trans person gets the surgery they can live life happily- instead of feeling uncomfortable. Theres no real risk behind that. Giving an anorexic person lipo wouldn't make them happier because it'd kill them.

There are so many things wrong with your post that id rather not address right now because it's almost 3AM but in your logic it seems that being gay would be a mental illness too would it not? Why not send us to one of those camps and straighten us out because it's so obviously a mental illness- we shouldn't live life happy.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Tom*

Apples to Oranges.
It's pretty damn sad to see this TBH. This is not the same.
At least if the trans person gets the surgery they can live life happily- instead of feeling uncomfortable. Theres no real risk behind that. Giving an anorexic person lipo wouldn't make them happier because it'd kill them.

There are so many things wrong with your post that id rather not address right now because it's almost 3AM but in your logic it seems that being gay would be a mental illness too would it not? Why not send us to one of those camps and straighten us out because it's so obviously a mental illness- we shouldn't live life happy.

How on earth do you figure that?! There is proof the homosexuality is a real thing. There is NO proof that transgender is actually being trapped in the wrong body. And I just cannot make sense of once you strip away the society induced gender norms..the ONLY differences are physical. So how can anyone be in the body of the wrong sex?

Also cannot see how my post has been taken to be against gays tbh, given the whole thing that made me think about this all properly was abuse of lesbians due to the current trans movement:S

[Rob!]

I'm sorry but I cannot actually cope with comparing the need to change your gender as a mental illness.
The whole "born in the wrong body" thing is precisely that. It is a "mental" instinct but only in exactly the same way as straight and gay, asexual, bisexual etc people grow up, develop and mature, knowing who they do and do not find attractive. That feeling that a straight person feels about the prospect of falling in love with somebody of the same gender is, I presume, the precise same feeling that someone who needs to change their sex feels - an imovable instinct, the way their brain is constructed.

[T*]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

How on earth do you figure that?!

Right- If someone feels like they're born into the opposite gender, it's not too different to being born with an attraction to the same gender rather than the opposite... That's why they're in the LGBT community, right? Because you've lumped trans people with having a mental illness because they've always felt like they've been the wrong gender all their life then... It's almost like saying that gay people have a mental illness because they've always felt attracted to the same gender...

I don't know if I'm explaining this very well because as I said it's almost 3am

[T*]

Originally Posted by Rob!

I'm sorry but I cannot actually cope with comparing the need to change your gender as a mental illness.
The whole "born in the wrong body" thing is precisely that. It is a "mental" instinct but only in exactly the same way as straight and gay, asexual, bisexual etc people grow up, develop and mature, knowing who they do and do not find attractive. That feeling that a straight person feels about the prospect of falling in love with somebody of the same gender is, I presume, the precise same feeling that someone who needs to change their sex feels - an imovable instinct, the way their brain is constructed.

This is what I was getting at

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Rob!

I'm sorry but I cannot actually cope with comparing the need to change your gender as a mental illness.
The whole "born in the wrong body" thing is precisely that. It is a "mental" instinct but only in exactly the same way as straight and gay, asexual, bisexual etc people grow up, develop and mature, knowing who they do and do not find attractive. That feeling that a straight person feels about the prospect of falling in love with somebody of the same gender is, I presume, the precise same feeling that someone who needs to change their sex feels - an imovable instinct, the way their brain is constructed.

OK, fair enough. Can you answer the question about what 'living as a woman' or 'living as a man' is. Without any 'wearing dresses' 'being soft and emotional' or any other attributes that society deems to be 'male' or 'female'?

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Tom*

Right- If someone feels like they're born into the opposite gender, it's not too different to being born with an attraction to the same gender rather than the opposite... That's why they're in the LGBT community, right? Because you've lumped trans people with having a mental illness because they've always felt like they've been the wrong gender all their life then... It's almost like saying that gay people have a mental illness because they've always felt attracted to the same gender...

I don't know if I'm explaining this very well because as I said it's almost 3am

It really is though, being attracted to and 'being' is not the same thing. There are people who genuinely believe they have been born the wrong species. People who believe they have been born able bodied, when they are really disabled. People who believe they have been born the wrong race That kind of thing. Why is being trapped in the wrong sex's body not seen in the same way that these peoples 'thoughts/beliefs' are?

[T*]

This site documents a little of what goes on in the social media world, and I am sure you will see the abuse is definitely not one sided. I specifically refer you to the section '4. Cotton ceiling and autogynephilia'. I cannot get the concept of 'cotton ceiling' of my mind as it is just pure vile. This page is full of posts such as the following

Quote:
"cisbians using 'I'm just not attracted to penises'

Except noone is attracted to penises. Noone is attracted to vaginas. Noone is attracted to genitals. You're attracted to the person.

When you first see someone you're attracted to them as a person. You don't know what genitals they have, implying you can tell a trans person from a cis person is cissexist and would force you to admit you are attracted to trans people before you find out they're trans.

So ask yourself why you'd be attracted to a transperson until you find out they're trans or what genitals they have?

Hint. Its because you're a sad little transmisogynist and you deserve to have your teeth beaten in
Essentially, broken down...lesbians should **** a penis or they are bigots. No. Sorry I don't go with that at all. And this is bullying, and ****ing homophobic to boot. The decision to allow anyone who 'identifies' as a woman to 'be' a woman, even while retaining a dick is what has lead to this. Do you think this is acceptable? If you allow anyone to identify however they like, you are condoning this and accepting it as truth... This was the main thing that made me think 'wtf, my views are messed up' tbh. I should add to this, the 'women' using these kind of insults are either 'trans women' who have remained with a penis and transactivists (who may or may not be trans themselves) and random blokes who have decided that they think they are female (or are using it as an excuse). These people believe lesbians should shag them and they should be given access to women only spaces. This is where the current trans movement is taking us, and I disagree with it in its entirety.

Like
What

I do not believe this nor do I think all trans people are going to act like this... This is really likely a small percentage of them and they all shouldn't be scrutinised just for some small percentages views...