[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by jaxie

I'd be quite ashamed if I wrote that. It also sounds rather racist.

Can I not have an opinion on the my country of birth? I don't feel proud to be British at the moment with the current state of affairs... I am just not one for blind faith, I make no apologies for your over sensitivity ... this 'we can do no wrong' attitude is ridiculous... we have made mistakes, this infantalisation of the masses towards unwavering devotion to the supreme leaders is frankly macabre.

I'll thank you not to stare name calling please, I am not 'racist' as English is not a race.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Can I not have an opinion on the my country of birth? I don't feel proud to be British at the moment with the current state of affairs... I am just not one for blind faith, I make no apologies for your over sensitivity ... this 'we can do no wrong' attitude is ridiculous... we have made mistakes, this infantalisation of the masses towards unwavering devotion to the supreme leaders is frankly macabre.

I'll thank you not to stare name calling please, I am not 'racist' as English is not a race.

I am a mix of all the Countries of these islands, a mix of Scots, Irish and English as I was born in Worcestershire.
All I would say is I can well understand the frustrations and annoyance you are feeling currently.
Except mine is not with Britain as a whole,I am very proud to be British but rather less so being English.
With recent events.

What I am witnessing as to some of the most vile prejudices, from admittedly a likely minority but that's not certain,crawling out the woodwork and showing itself more publicly here in England recently now.
Certainly makes me feel sad and even ashamed at times of this particular part of the UK.
Like it clearly has yourself Kizzy.

I still would say I see some merit in this EU idea, whether it ever comes to fruition is another matter.
Anyway we do not now have to be any part of it now at all or even consider same.
Then again I am a supporter of the EU and will stay so, so I would have been likely warmer to this idea than most others.

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

I am a mix of all the Countries of these islands, a mix of Scots, Irish and English as I was born in Worcestershire.
All I would say is I can well understand the frustrations and annoyance you are feeling currently.
Except mine is not with Britain as a whole,I am very proud to be British but rather less so being English.
With recent events.

What I am witnessing as to some of the most vile prejudices, from admittedly a likely minority but that's not certain,crawling out the woodwork and showing itself more publicly here in England recently now.
Certainly makes me feel sad and even ashamed at times of this particular part of the UK.
Like it clearly has yourself Kizzy.

I still would say I see some merit in this EU idea, whether it ever comes to fruition is another matter.
Anyway we do not now have to be any part of it now at all or even consider same.
Then again I am a supporter of the EU and will stay so, so I would have been likely warmer to this idea than most others.

Well there at least two cases on the news that might or might not be vile prejudices as they haven't actually mentioned any evidence they were race related apart from the victim being polish. Unfortunately crime happens every day and it isn't always racially motivated no matter where the people originate from or indeed anything to with the EU. Stephan Lawrence's murder was a vile prejudice for instance and deserves justice.

If you are English hating over the EU referendum, don't forget to include the Welsh, and the 39% of Scots who voted to leave plus the NIs who voted same. Or it sounds like you are just picking on one race. Which makes you guilty of the very thing that is upsetting you.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by jaxie

Well there at least two cases on the news that might or might not be vile prejudices as they haven't actually mentioned any evidence they were race related apart from the victim being polish. Unfortunately crime happens every day and it isn't always racially motivated no matter where the people originate from or indeed anything to with the EU. Stephan Lawrence's murder was a vile prejudice for instance and deserves justice.

If you are English hating over the EU referendum, don't forget to include the Welsh, and the 39% of Scots who voted to leave plus the NIs who voted same. Or it sounds like you are just picking on one race. Which makes you guilty of the very thing that is upsetting you.

Not every person who voted leave are carrying out these vile attacks and verbal assaults on people who have been here for decades, even people they have worked with for years too.
I said a minority if your read the post properly.

Please do not patronise me, I have every right to feel pride or shame in my Country,whatever may be the case, that is actually for me to decide how I feel.

Furthermore, keep telling yourself there are a tiny number of cases, these cases are things our media do not want people to hear.

I actually work as a Solicitor and I know the things I have heard about and also have even worked on as to helping prepare cases for Court.
Many are currently in waiting to be heard in Crown Court too.

You can also choose to ignore if you wish,the fact that the Police have even said there is a substantial increase in reported hate and xenophobic/racist crime since the referendum.

These are the things Kizzy clearly has come across and then myself more from the work I do.
Not all is rosy or at present even nice in the English garden at present,and it is in England where the bulk of such hate incidents are on the increase more than anywhere else and that should be a concern for everyone in England, no matter how they voted.
Oh and it was 38% of Scots who voted to leave,not 39%, also English is not a race.
It is one Country of the UK, nothing else and I do not hate the English,I am English.
I again state I am against and ashamed of the 'minority' as I stated, of those who are 'English' who have crawled out the woodwork as to this referendum with their racist, xenophobic and hate related prejudices.
In whatever form those prejudices are.

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

Not every person who voted leave are carrying out these vile attacks and verbal assaults on people who have been here for decades, even people they have worked with for years too.
I said a minority if your read the post properly.

Please do not patronise me, I have every right to feel pride or shame in my Country,whatever may be the case, that is actually for me to decide how I feel.

Furthermore, keep telling yourself there are a tiny number of cases, these cases are things our media do not want people to hear.

I actually work as a Solicitor and I know the things I have heard about and also have even worked on as to helping prepare cases for Court.
Many are currently in waiting to be heard in Crown Court too.

You can also choose to ignore if you wish,the fact that the Police have even said there is a substantial increase in reported hate and xenophobic/racist crime since the referendum.

These are the things Kizzy clearly has come across and then myself more from the work I do.
Not all is rosy or at present even nice in the English garden at present,and it is in England where the bulk of such hate incidents are on the increase more than anywhere else and that should be a concern for everyone in England, no matter how they voted.
Oh and it was 38% of Scots who voted to leave,not 39%, also English is not a race.
It is one Country of the UK, nothing else and I do not hate the English,I am English.
I again state I am against and ashamed of the 'minority' as I stated, of those who are 'English' who have crawled out the woodwork as to this referendum with their racist, xenophobic and hate related prejudices.
In whatever form those prejudices are.

You have no way of knowing if the people carrying out the assaults even voted in the referendum at all!

You say it's in England the bulk of these crimes are reported, how can you know that for sure? Do you have access to the details or statistics of those kinds of crimes reported in the other countries of the union?

Since the referendum there has actually an effort to urge people to report hate, so it's very hard to say if the rise in reports is a rise in the crime, or a rise in the reporting of the crime and a rise in awareness.

We should always be concerned about any hate crime but trying to make it an issue of Brexit is probably fairly naive. There are always people in every society with those views.

Do I think you are trying to make a mountain out of a molehill? Yes I hope so.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by jaxie

You have no way of knowing if the people carrying out the assaults even voted in the referendum at all!

You say it's in England the bulk of these crimes are reported, how can you know that for sure? Do you have access to the details or statistics of those kinds of crimes reported in the other countries of the union?

Since the referendum there has actually an effort to urge people to report hate, so it's very hard to say if the rise in reports is a rise in the crime, or a rise in the reporting of the crime and a rise in awareness.

We should always be concerned about any hate crime but trying to make it an issue of Brexit is probably fairly naive. There are always people in every society with those views.

Do I think you are trying to make a mountain out of a molehill? Yes I hope so.

I have previously posted long, comprehensive posts answering these types of allegations - as have others - and here we are again, dancing the same dance with the same partners.

I could pick up the phone RIGHT NOW and fictitiously report that on my way back from the local shops, I was jostled, spat upon, and called racist names by two white English men, and THAT call is LOGGED.

The police only follow up in the most EXTREME cases - where injury from violence has been suffered - but even if anyone from the police DID come out to' follow up' my report - WHAT THE FECK can they do to ascertain that my report is truthful?

I tell them a story, cannot identify the 'perpetrators' - who are long gone anyway - and it is just one more 'Hate Crime' on the records.

It's funny how the FACTS and STATISTICS which I have often reproduced in my posts to corroborate what I am saying - the EU Referendum one's included - have been decried and denied, yet a quite MEANINGLESS set of 'statistics' which are the result of highly questionable 'Telephone' report lines, are waved aloft as if they were IRREFUTABLE proof.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by jaxie

You have no way of knowing if the people carrying out the assaults even voted in the referendum at all!

You say it's in England the bulk of these crimes are reported, how can you know that for sure? Do you have access to the details or statistics of those kinds of crimes reported in the other countries of the union?

Since the referendum there has actually an effort to urge people to report hate, so it's very hard to say if the rise in reports is a rise in the crime, or a rise in the reporting of the crime and a rise in awareness.

We should always be concerned about any hate crime but trying to make it an issue of Brexit is probably fairly naive. There are always people in every society with those views.

Do I think you are trying to make a mountain out of a molehill? Yes I hope so.

I wish I was free to reveal things I have and am working on and due or have been taken to Court as to your point in the first paragraph.
However I must not.

I am a Lawyer, I talk to other Lawyers across the UK,the rise is mainly in England, however there is validity to your point that more incidents and crimes not reported before are likely being now, however again, I am hearing more and more of the terminology of, ''we voted to get rid of you, why are you still here''.
Again ignore that if you choose.

No one is making it about brexit either, I said the referendum had brought out of the woodwork a minority who held racist,xenophobic and other prejudiced views.

I stress a minority again, that is what I said, no one is saying at all England is a racist Country,only that these incidents and yes crimes too, are on the rise in England particularly.

I don't either make mountains out of molehills, I just do my job in working Law, and I know what I and my colleagues come across and have heard and seen.

You and others can dismiss all you like as to that just to suit your agenda, I would rather my agenda stay as it was before,than have to now deal with people being got at unjustly, just because they are of a different race or nationality.
Do you work in Law, do you see these cases?

Apart from just questioning my integrity,what actual facts have you to say this is not the case as to these rising incidents and crimes.
Are or even the Police wrong too in your eyes who recommend the charging for said incidents/crimes.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by jaxie

Well there at least two cases on the news that might or might not be vile prejudices as they haven't actually mentioned any evidence they were race related apart from the victim being polish. Unfortunately crime happens every day and it isn't always racially motivated no matter where the people originate from or indeed anything to with the EU. Stephan Lawrence's murder was a vile prejudice for instance and deserves justice.

If you are English hating over the EU referendum, don't forget to include the Welsh, and the 39% of Scots who voted to leave plus the NIs who voted same. Or it sounds like you are just picking on one race. Which makes you guilty of the very thing that is upsetting you.

I agree with all that...

I'm very tired of the claims that England is a racist country. Google racist attacks in any country in Europe and you'll find plenty. The claims are a sur by people with a different agenda. There was recently a Romanian shop in Norwich firebombed and some people were wringing their hands saying how awful thse racist attacks are. Turned out it was another Romanian gang who firebombed it.

The rise of NeoNazism in Germany is scary. I'd be more worried about that, to be honest.

[Mystic Mock]

Originally Posted by jaxie

Well there at least two cases on the news that might or might not be vile prejudices as they haven't actually mentioned any evidence they were race related apart from the victim being polish. Unfortunately crime happens every day and it isn't always racially motivated no matter where the people originate from or indeed anything to with the EU. Stephan Lawrence's murder was a vile prejudice for instance and deserves justice.

If you are English hating over the EU referendum, don't forget to include the Welsh, and the 39% of Scots who voted to leave plus the NIs who voted same. Or it sounds like you are just picking on one race. Which makes you guilty of the very thing that is upsetting you.

Scotland and NI voted to stay overwhelmingly, that's the very definition of undemocratic to not let them stay in the EU.

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by Mystic Mock

Scotland and NI voted to stay overwhelmingly, that's the very definition of undemocratic to not let them stay in the EU.

That's ridiculous. You can't please all of the people all the time so you go with the majority vote. That's democracy, everyone has a fair and equal chance to win the vote. When you don't, accept it.

[Mystic Mock]

Originally Posted by jaxie

That's ridiculous. You can't please all of the people all the time so you go with the majority vote. That's democracy, everyone has a fair and equal chance to win the vote. When you don't, accept it.

Well explain that to the two countries that have been pulled out of the EU against their will?

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by Mystic Mock

Well explain that to the two countries that have been pulled out of the EU against their will?

And the 39% of Scots who wanted to leave the EU?

[bots]

Originally Posted by Mystic Mock

Well explain that to the two countries that have been pulled out of the EU against their will?

They are not separate countries though, they are not members of the EU as Scotland etc, they are members of the EU as the UK, which is one body. You are making an artificial division.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by jaxie

That's ridiculous. You can't please all of the people all the time so you go with the majority vote. That's democracy, everyone has a fair and equal chance to win the vote. When you don't, accept it.

Mock didn't vote and yet he's posted a myriad of posts criticising the result. You can do that when you live in a free, democratic country.

A word on race... when people say you can't be racist against the English because English is not a race... I think we all know what they mean. Maybe, technically, the term is anti-English. Race is a sticky issue. Jews think of themselves as a race although technically they are not.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Livia

Mock didn't vote and yet he's posted a myriad of posts criticising the result. You can do that when you live in a free, democratic country.

A word on race... when people say you can't be racist against the English because English is not a race... I think we all know what they mean. Maybe, technically, the term is anti-English. Race is a sticky issue. Jews think of themselves as a race although technically they are not.

Xenophobic

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Can I not have an opinion on the my country of birth? I don't feel proud to be British at the moment with the current state of affairs... I am just not one for blind faith, I make no apologies for your over sensitivity ... this 'we can do no wrong' attitude is ridiculous... we have made mistakes, this infantalisation of the masses towards unwavering devotion to the supreme leaders is frankly macabre.

I'll thank you not to stare name calling please, I am not 'racist' as English is not a race.

English most certainly is a race. Not feeling over sensitive at all just surprised by how disloyal to your country you sound if you are English. If you are from another part of the union then you seem to have a real issue with the English. There isn't a nation on earth that can do no wrong but living in this country is pretty damn good and allows you freedoms you wouldn't get in other places. Freedom it sounds like you are taking very much for granted. The infantalisation is all in your head.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by jaxie

English most certainly is a race. Not feeling over sensitive at all just surprised by how disloyal to your country you sound if you are English. If you are from another part of the union then you seem to have a real issue with the English. There isn't a nation on earth that can do no wrong but living in this country is pretty damn good and allows you freedoms you wouldn't get in other places. Freedom it sounds like you are taking very much for granted. The infantalisation is all in your head.

No, no it isn't. I am English, however I have the rare ability to be objective about the decisions we make as a country and how they impact globally.
I am very proud of the freedoms we have in this country this is the whole reason for my dismay ( no pun intended) those freedoms are being eroded.

To me the essence of Britishness IS demanding your rights, holding those in positions of responsibility to account to maintain our civil liberties.
How English is it to be duped, lied to and be spoonfed misinformation?

This country could very quickly ed up like A N other in the blink of an eye with a few subtle changes to legislation, subverting 100s of years of struggles that took generations to achieve, yet anyone who doesn't roll over is seen as some social disobedient?.... I'm sorry but that smacks of conditioning and I'm seeing it happening more and more.