[Kizzy]

Donald Trump may think that bragging about sexual assault is “locker room talk,” but professional athletes across the country beg to differ.

During Sunday night’s presidential debate, Trump was sharply criticized for a leaked video from 2005 in which he boasts about hitting on a married woman “like a bitch” and grabbing women “by the pussy.”

“It’s locker room talk, and it’s one of those things,” the GOP nominee said of the statements.

LA Clippers coach and former NBA point guard Doc Rivers said that if Trump thinks his comments constitute locker room talk, “that’s a new locker room for me.”

Several other current and former sports stars weighed in to say that people don’t actually talk like Trump in locker rooms.


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/...b0b6a43033cd01

[the truth]

in all my years working Ive never heard any men talk like that about women, EVER
I have however heard many women speak lewdly and crudely about men. Not quite as far as trump went though.

[Ammi]

..males and females can have crude conversations but this isn't about a crude conversation..it's about someone saying that sexual assault is something that they do because of their position and their opportunities..their 'star'...that shouldn't be a gender thing/sexual assault shouldn't be a gender thing and should be a human being thing...and what he said should be deeply worrying, whatever the gender we are...any sexual or intimate physical contact should always be of consent....and he doesn't wait, he grabs because he's Donald Trump...


..Jack's already spoken about those who feel that they're above the law in their actions and the damage there on victims..that they don't feel that they can speak out...I mean the power that the White House could bring to bear on those who did..but it's also so worrying for those who are wrongly accused as well, when there has been consent but then the 'star' has been exploited for gain...just the accusations alone devastate lives...these words of Donald Trump just feed into that as well...this is not just crude banter type stuff, this is very, very damaging on many levels...and very worrying whatever the gender....

[Maru]

People come in all shapes, sizes and forms which varying degrees of sensitivity regarding “lewd” conversations. That being the case, if Trump were lead to the nation, I still feel it would be a blazing step forward for some form of new age chauvinism aka modern pseudo intellectual bull**** version(s) of sexism... among other issues of bigotry.

I don't know which channel this was on (maybe ABC), but post-debate someone in a media round table said, and I'll paraphase, that sexual harassment used to be dismissed as "locker room" chatter back in the olden day but instead, thankfully, the average American no longer believes that this is just locker room chatter and instead views it as a sexual harassment and abhorrent behavior.

This in my own experience as well.

I had a friend who I knew since middle school with whom I ended a 13 year friendship over just this issue. I had a friend who plastered his Facebook/Twitter feeds with the sort of **** that Trump is now quoted saying. The last straw for me was my friend told me that he was fine being a cheater. Despite treating his wife like crap because of her perceivable bad attitude, if she were to cheat, he would throw her clothes out on the lawn and make her feel like total garbage despite his own flaws and poor judgement. We were in a bar and after I clarified his actual beliefs with him, I walked out. Aside from a text every few years, we never met or spoke again.

There was no doubt in my mind that I only knew the tip of the iceberg with regards to my friend’s sexism but I'm sure I could've prodded him more details... my experiences with anyone who is actually this sexist is that they are usually overtly so (such as Trump)... they don't go through great pains to hide it and often happy to let everyone know the “wisdom” of their ways. He and Trump were similar in that he would broadcast it to the world as some form of "real talk"... he being the one man and most honest person I'd ever know because he was exposing the truth... etc... it was intellectual masturbation used to cover up bigotry caused his issues with women and other bitter ugliness. They, like others, were "problems"... they needed to change for this country and his life to become better. It was a not so subtle way of avoiding looking at his own flaws, his own intolerance, as a big source of his dysfunctional relationships... such as not being able to get along with his wife and feeling like he couldn’t depend on anyone (he had to demand or guilt them to do what he wanted)... if he treated them like equals, then he’d be a “pussy”.

I asked my husband today, and sometimes recently, about the men at his job and in his circles since he works a testosterone-y job as a law enforcement officer. Banter is very common where he works and among his friends, but it’s stuff along the lines of women/wives nagging, women being moody (aka bitchY0, usual banter about women's behavior not making sense... as far as the treatment of women, he did say that a few officers are very open about being players, not really the monogamist type, only playing the game for sex, etc... or "I'd hit that" "I'd like a piece of that" (among single friends)... other things we'd easily see on TiBB... but nothing that would describe the ease of forcing upon others. Maybe the boundaries are different in Trump’s world, but not many of us can visit the Playboy Mansion with lots of cash so I’m afraid we may see it differently…

He did say however he has heard that sort of vulgarity frequently from his inmates though..."That bitch better have moneh" "That's mah side bitch" "Bitch does mah laundry"... other violent stuff that are harder to quote.

We have a lot of guys over too from his job when we play table top games and we pride ourselves on the types of crude conversations in our household. My current character is a male sexist Dwarf who plays a macho-y perv to my husband's character who just happens to be female . We like to push the boundaries with some of our pranks but nothing that goes to the level of anything we'd actually do in real life and certainly to describe it in the way it is mentioned in Trump's video would make the table really uncomfortable. For us, it's just silly background stories (and banter) that make it easier for us to keep to a storyline (and our character's physical/mental/emotional capabilities.

Anyway, maybe these lines are more easily crossed in the UK with the open borders and variety of cultures, but in the US the line between banter and sexual harassment are fairly clear. If it's discussed Trump’s way, it's going to be with a limited group, because most people are very sensitive to these types of discussions since the status quo has shifted so far away from what used to be comfortably discussed. In my own experiences, "locker room chat" the way Trump terms it is a thing of the past and is the exact kind of gossip that would spread between friends (male or female) to warn others to ward off "the creep". It's just not something that is acceptable in 2016 and is something that would be considered a red flag in many circles.

Sorry, my posts are long again.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Donald Trump may think that bragging about sexual assault is “locker room talk,” but professional athletes across the country beg to differ.

During Sunday night’s presidential debate, Trump was sharply criticized for a leaked video from 2005 in which he boasts about hitting on a married woman “like a bitch” and grabbing women “by the pussy.”

“It’s locker room talk, and it’s one of those things,” the GOP nominee said of the statements.

LA Clippers coach and former NBA point guard Doc Rivers said that if Trump thinks his comments constitute locker room talk, “that’s a new locker room for me.”

Several other current and former sports stars weighed in to say that people don’t actually talk like Trump in locker rooms.


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/...b0b6a43033cd01

YOU are one of THE main members on here who have consistently sneered at quotes from The Daily Mail and other media when those quotes have been used to underscore and substantiate certain posts which may have run counter to your own very fixed ideologies, because you claimed that such reportage is worthless because the DM or other media source is blatantly 'Right Wing' and not to be trusted.

Yet - typically for you - you have no such problem using reportage from the blatantly anti-Trump Huffington Post as 'corroboration' for your non-argument.

Not only that, but the sentiments and comments of some of the 'tweeters' quoted leave no doubt at all that they too are staunchly anti-Trump.

Seriously, what kind of purpose does it fulfill, to quote a fiercely anti-Trump newspaper which is using quotes from anti-Trump 'tweeters' in any argument against Trump?

As if any more evidence is needed that the above is totally worthless as evidence in any serious debate, one only has to take the most cursory of glances at the Huffington Post's own editor's footnote:

"Editor’s note: Donald Trump regularly incites political violence and is a serial liar, rampant xenophobe, racist, misogynist and birther who has repeatedly pledged to ban all Muslims — 1.6 billion members of an entire religion — from entering the U.S."

Just to save any misinterpretation or misunderstandings, I will stress here, once again, that I am NOT defending Donald Trump - this post is solely about the now much discussed/debated side issue of what constitutes 'Locker Room' banter, and indeed, whether such a thing still exists.

I maintain - from decades of my OWN direct, personal experiences in a wide range of situations when I have been in all male company, including hundreds of 'Locker Rooms' - that some men STILL talk disrespectfully in a sexist manner about women when they are in all male company.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Ammi

..males and females can have crude conversations but this isn't about a crude conversation..it's about someone saying that sexual assault is something that they do because of their position and their opportunities..their 'star'...that shouldn't be a gender thing/sexual assault shouldn't be a gender thing and should be a human being thing...and what he said should be deeply worrying, whatever the gender we are...any sexual or intimate physical contact should always be of consent....and he doesn't wait, he grabs because he's Donald Trump...


..Jack's already spoken about those who feel that they're above the law in their actions and the damage there on victims..that they don't feel that they can speak out...I mean the power that the White House could bring to bear on those who did..but it's also so worrying for those who are wrongly accused as well, when there has been consent but then the 'star' has been exploited for gain...just the accusations alone devastate lives...these words of Donald Trump just feed into that as well...this is not just crude banter type stuff, this is very, very damaging on many levels...and very worrying whatever the gender....

Another great post Ammi.

I agree with you that Jack has a very valid and important point about Trump's sexual harassment of some unconsenting women which I admit I overlooked in my earlier posts; that they may be too intimidated - for various reasons - to formally complain.

I do also agree with your last paragraph, because there is always a real danger with rich 'Stars/Celebrities facing any type of'historic' sexual abuse allegations, that some opportunists will crawl out of the woodwork with fabricated claims in the hope of achieving money or fame as a result.

I think with Trump, the evidence now that he is an arrogant, sexist pig with a tendency towards sexual assault is overwhelming, and that his comments within that 'bus revelation with Billy Bush' must be re-evaluated by those of us who did believe it to be mere 'Locker Room' type banter and boasting - no matter how extreme a form.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Maru

People come in all shapes, sizes and forms which varying degrees of sensitivity regarding “lewd” conversations. That being the case, if Trump were lead to the nation, I still feel it would be a blazing step forward for some form of new age chauvinism aka modern pseudo intellectual bull**** version(s) of sexism... among other issues of bigotry.

I don't know which channel this was on (maybe ABC), but post-debate someone in a media round table said, and I'll paraphase, that sexual harassment used to be dismissed as "locker room" chatter back in the olden day but instead, thankfully, the average American no longer believes that this is just locker room chatter and instead views it as a sexual harassment and abhorrent behavior.

This in my own experience as well.

I had a friend who I knew since middle school with whom I ended a 13 year friendship over just this issue. I had a friend who plastered his Facebook/Twitter feeds with the sort of **** that Trump is now quoted saying. The last straw for me was my friend told me that he was fine being a cheater. Despite treating his wife like crap because of her perceivable bad attitude, if she were to cheat, he would throw her clothes out on the lawn and make her feel like total garbage despite his own flaws and poor judgement. We were in a bar and after I clarified his actual beliefs with him, I walked out. Aside from a text every few years, we never met or spoke again.

There was no doubt in my mind that I only knew the tip of the iceberg with regards to my friend’s sexism but I'm sure I could've prodded him more details... my experiences with anyone who is actually this sexist is that they are usually overtly so (such as Trump)... they don't go through great pains to hide it and often happy to let everyone know the “wisdom” of their ways. He and Trump were similar in that he would broadcast it to the world as some form of "real talk"... he being the one man and most honest person I'd ever know because he was exposing the truth... etc... it was intellectual masturbation used to cover up bigotry caused his issues with women and other bitter ugliness. They, like others, were "problems"... they needed to change for this country and his life to become better. It was a not so subtle way of avoiding looking at his own flaws, his own intolerance, as a big source of his dysfunctional relationships... such as not being able to get along with his wife and feeling like he couldn’t depend on anyone (he had to demand or guilt them to do what he wanted)... if he treated them like equals, then he’d be a “pussy”.

I asked my husband today, and sometimes recently, about the men at his job and in his circles since he works a testosterone-y job as a law enforcement officer. Banter is very common where he works and among his friends, but it’s stuff along the lines of women/wives nagging, women being moody (aka bitchY0, usual banter about women's behavior not making sense... as far as the treatment of women, he did say that a few officers are very open about being players, not really the monogamist type, only playing the game for sex, etc... or "I'd hit that" "I'd like a piece of that" (among single friends)... other things we'd easily see on TiBB... but nothing that would describe the ease of forcing upon others. Maybe the boundaries are different in Trump’s world, but not many of us can visit the Playboy Mansion with lots of cash so I’m afraid we may see it differently…

He did say however he has heard that sort of vulgarity frequently from his inmates though..."That bitch better have moneh" "That's mah side bitch" "Bitch does mah laundry"... other violent stuff that are harder to quote.

We have a lot of guys over too from his job when we play table top games and we pride ourselves on the types of crude conversations in our household. My current character is a male sexist Dwarf who plays a macho-y perv to my husband's character who just happens to be female . We like to push the boundaries with some of our pranks but nothing that goes to the level of anything we'd actually do in real life and certainly to describe it in the way it is mentioned in Trump's video would make the table really uncomfortable. For us, it's just silly background stories (and banter) that make it easier for us to keep to a storyline (and our character's physical/mental/emotional capabilities.

Anyway, maybe these lines are more easily crossed in the UK with the open borders and variety of cultures, but in the US the line between banter and sexual harassment are fairly clear. If it's discussed Trump’s way, it's going to be with a limited group, because most people are very sensitive to these types of discussions since the status quo has shifted so far away from what used to be comfortably discussed. In my own experiences, "locker room chat" the way Trump terms it is a thing of the past and is the exact kind of gossip that would spread between friends (male or female) to warn others to ward off "the creep". It's just not something that is acceptable in 2016 and is something that would be considered a red flag in many circles.

Sorry, my posts are long again.

Great post Maru, the bit I've bolded in particular is a worry and something I've been thinking too

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Donald Trump may think that bragging about sexual assault is “locker room talk,” but professional athletes across the country beg to differ.

During Sunday night’s presidential debate, Trump was sharply criticized for a leaked video from 2005 in which he boasts about hitting on a married woman “like a bitch” and grabbing women “by the pussy.”

“It’s locker room talk, and it’s one of those things,” the GOP nominee said of the statements.

LA Clippers coach and former NBA point guard Doc Rivers said that if Trump thinks his comments constitute locker room talk, “that’s a new locker room for me.”

Several other current and former sports stars weighed in to say that people don’t actually talk like Trump in locker rooms.


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/...b0b6a43033cd01

So some journo called him and asked him if he ever talked like trump in the locker room and naturally he lied and said no



do you seriously think anyone would want to say yes and have their name and reputation trashed on the back of the Trump thing?

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

So some journo called him and asked him if he ever talked like trump in the locker room and naturally he lied and said no



do you seriously think anyone would want to say yes and have their name and reputation trashed on the back of the Trump thing?

He lied and said no? So you're saying that all men when in locker rooms talk about how they grab womens pussys whenever they feel like it? That's ****ing vile and totally untrue

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

He lied and said no? So you're saying that all men when in locker rooms talk about how they grab womens pussys whenever they feel like it? That's ****ing vile and totally untrue

No not that specifically but I would say that they indulge in what would be seen as sexist language about women


Its all about where you are and who you are with how you speak


You speak differently to close friends alone than you would say at work, differently to your parents or to a neighbour. We are all many different people depending on where you are

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

No not that specifically but I would say that they indulge in what would be seen as sexist language about women


Its all about where you are and who you are with how you speak


You speak differently to close friends alone than you would say at work, differently to your parents or to a neighbour. We are all many different people depending on where you are

So they don't talk about sexually assaulting women in Locker rooms then so he didn't lie, good glad that's sorted

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

So they don't talk about sexually assaulting women in Locker rooms then so he didn't lie, good glad that's sorted

Neither did Trump, it was a crude euphemism

as I am sure you know

[bots]

I think people are mixing up lads banter and insulting, and derogatory behaviour.

I have been around the block, and I have NEVER been in male company where phrases and speech such as Trump used in that video have been said. Most lads banter is harmless even if it could be viewed as offensive. What Trump said was neither harmless or humourous, it was predatory in nature.

I'm still not understanding why it comes as a shock to people though, he has been in the public eye for over 20 years and he has never been what could be considered decent and upstanding

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

Neither did Trump, it was a crude euphemism

as I am sure you know

omg

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

I think people are mixing up lads banter and insulting, and derogatory behaviour.

I have been around the block, and I have NEVER been in male company where phrases and speech such as Trump used in that video have been said. Most lads banter is harmless even if it could be viewed as offensive. What Trump said was neither harmless or humourous, it was predatory in nature.

I'm still not understanding why it comes as a shock to people though, he has been in the public eye for over 20 years and he has never been what could be considered decent and upstanding

Exactly BOTS.

I guess people aren't totally surprised but then again people may not have had paid too much attention to the man before he decided to run for president either. I know I didn't anyhow. All I knew about him before really was he was a smug business man with bad hair

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

omg

well you dont think he meant he walks into a room and puts his hand down a womans pants and physically grabs them by the clitoris?

I would imagine if he did we may have heard about it by now or indeed in the last week

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

I think people are mixing up lads banter and insulting, and derogatory behaviour.

I have been around the block, and I have NEVER been in male company where phrases and speech such as Trump used in that video have been said. Most lads banter is harmless even if it could be viewed as offensive. What Trump said was neither harmless or humourous, it was predatory in nature.

I'm still not understanding why it comes as a shock to people though, he has been in the public eye for over 20 years and he has never been what could be considered decent and upstanding

and I also have been around a bit and have heard far far worse

To me he just sounded like an old blowhard feeling his age and trying to impress a younger guy

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

well you dont think he meant he walks into a room and puts his hand down a womans pants and physically grabs them by the clitoris?

I would imagine if he did we may have heard about it by now or indeed in the last week

I actually had a reply typed out to this but you know what, I'm not even getting into this with someone who is actually defending those words and trying to justify them. Makes me sick

[user104658]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

I maintain - from decades of my OWN direct, personal experiences in a wide range of situations when I have been in all male company, including hundreds of 'Locker Rooms' - that some men STILL talk disrespectfully in a sexist manner about women when they are in all male company.

Right, but I'm not sure how this is really relevant or important? I doubt anyone imagines that Trump is the only man in the world who still talks like this... Obviously, there are still plenty of other arseholes who do it too. That doesn't make it any better, and it's a long way from the idea that ALL men do it (which LT seems to be suggesting). More than one person talking like this doesn't lessen it.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

I actually had a reply typed out to this but you know what, I'm not even getting into this with someone who is actually defending those words and trying to justify them. Makes me sick

I am merely pointing out that I think it would be folly to take it literally and I dont think anyone did

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Right, but I'm not sure how this is really relevant or important? I doubt anyone imagines that Trump is the only man in the world who still talks like this... Obviously, there are still plenty of other arseholes who do it too. That doesn't make it any better, and it's a long way from the idea that ALL men do it (which LT seems to be suggesting). More than one person talking like this doesn't lessen it.

Yes but to pretend to be outraged is just silly, its a non story and no one is surprised

What is far more important for America is why a 300 million people democracy turned out 2 awful polar candidates, they need to have a long hard look at the whole process that got them here

[user104658]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

Yes but to pretend to be outraged is just silly, its a non story and no one is surprised

What is far more important for America is why a 300 million people democracy turned out 2 awful polar candidates, they need to have a long hard look at the whole process that got them here

Outraged that he said it? That is silly because, yes, we all know that this sort of man exists and we all knew that Trump is exactly that sort of man. The fact that he said it is completely unsurprising.

What is completely ****ing outrageous is that people know he's this sort of man and would still choose him to be the president of the most powerful and influential country in the world. He's a filthy little creeper who needs to retreat back to the underbelly of trashy reality TV.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Outraged that he said it? That is silly because, yes, we all know that this sort of man exists and we all knew that Trump is exactly that sort of man. The fact that he said it is completely unsurprising.

What is completely ****ing outrageous is that people know he's this sort of man and would still choose him to be the president of the most powerful and influential country in the world. He's a filthy little creeper who needs to retreat back to the underbelly of trashy reality TV.

Nail on the head

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Outraged that he said it? That is silly because, yes, we all know that this sort of man exists and we all knew that Trump is exactly that sort of man. The fact that he said it is completely unsurprising.

What is completely ****ing outrageous is that people know he's this sort of man and would still choose him to be the president of the most powerful and influential country in the world. He's a filthy little creeper who needs to retreat back to the underbelly of trashy reality TV.

Yes but you have also to accept that a large swathe of America are happy with him, they admire wealth and status above morality. This is a very different country to the UK, we may speak the same language but we are not in any way the same

[user104658]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

Yes but you have also to accept that a large swathe of America are happy with him, they admire wealth and status above morality. This is a very different country to the UK, we may speak the same language but we are not in any way the same

I'm not sure what your point is there, either. That just makes it worse? Not to go all Godwin or anything (and I am genuinely not comparing the two men, only the sentiment) - a large swathe (a decent majority) of Germans were happy with Hitler.

And countless other examples of populations being "happy with" horrendous leaders. At least at the point of putting them in power.

I find the sweeping "that's just democracy innit" idea a bit meaningless. A bad decision is a bad decision.