[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

If anyone tried to pressurise me into wearing a burka or any such restrictive clothing I would do much the same as an adult.

But no doubt if I had been subjected to family/social pressure and 'spoken/unspoken' threat from birth I guess I would have pretty much been conditioned into believing I actually had free choice at that stage.

Social condioning is very strong.

Those that cannot acknowledge that are socially deaf, dumb and blind.

Hackney is home to a large ultra-Orthodox Jewish Charedi community, which is regarded as insular and practices a strict 19th-century interpretation of the faith.

Engagement with the secular world is for many deeply taboo.

The Independent has spent months investigating illegal schools in the borough.

Those forced to attend illegal schools have reported that they are not taught English or anything secular so they can instead focus on studying the Torah.

One former pupil at an illegal schoool in Hackney told The Independent he was regularly subject to “physical and psychological abuse”.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...-a7422526.html

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

That is a ridiculous analogy. Clearly becoming a nunn is a choice, but knowing how oppressive certain religions can be towards women casts considerable doubt as to how much 'choice' women really have to cover themselves.

This really annoys me because there would probably be uproar on here if gay or black men were forced/conditioned (amounts to the same) to wear such restrictive clothing, but when many men in particular, appear to have such an apathetic reaction to women having to do so it reeks of sexist undertones to me.

And what of women who choose to wear the Hijab or Burka? Are they, ironically considering your stance, not allowed to make that choice for themselves?

The only ridiculous analogy in this thread thus far has been yours about the gays. It doesn't really make a lick of sense.

[Northern Monkey]

It's a shame.Egypt was one of the freer Muslim countries.When i was there many Muslim women were just dressed in normal jeans and t-shirts etc.I saw more women in Bradford wearing the full mailbox suit than in Cairo.That was just before all the major trouble started over there.It was an amazing place to visit.
Let's hope it does'nt start going in the direction of Saudi Arabia.How do you change a country's ideology?Brainwash the kids.Seems like they are trying to radicalise the future generations.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

And what of women who choose to wear the Hijab or Burka? Are they, ironically considering your stance, not allowed to make that choice for themselves?

The only ridiculous analogy in this thread thus far has been yours about the gays. It doesn't really make a lick of sense.

Of course it does! Again you show a lack of concern for the detrimental effects of such effects of religous/cultural oppression of women and constantly try to suggest no such conditioning could possibly be occurring in Britain.

Suggesting or agreeing that there is any correlation between the wearing of a nunns' habit and a woman in a burka is absurd. One is clearly based on choice. The other is not so clear.

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

That is a ridiculous analogy. Clearly becoming a nunn is a choice, but knowing how oppressive certain religions can be towards women casts considerable doubt as to how much 'choice' women really have to cover themselves.

This really annoys me because there would probably be uproar on here if gay or black men were forced/conditioned (amounts to the same) to wear such restrictive clothing, but when many men in particular, appear to have such an apathetic reaction to women having to do so it reeks of sexist undertones to me.

You are right but, I wouldn't deny there is also conditioning in cathlocism with girls brought up to believe the ultimate sacrifice of purity is to become a nun. In some families this is something to aspire to.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by jaxie

You are right but, I wouldn't deny there is also conditioning in cathlocism with girls brought up to believe the ultimate sacrifice of purity is to become a nun. In some families this is something to aspire to.

Fair point. I do agree with you that it is not about the choice of what to wear per se but the reasons behind the wearing of certain types of garments for women in relation to so-called 'choice'.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

Of course it does! Again you show a lack of concern for the detrimental effects of such effects of religous/cultural oppression of women and constantly try to suggest no such conditioning could possibly be occurring in Britain.

Suggesting or agreeing that there is any correlation between the wearing of a nunns' habit and a woman in a burka is absurd. One is clearly based on choice. The other is not so clear.

I believe in freedom of choice, that means accepting choices that I might not agree with. I'm not going to make out that the Hijab/burka is evil and women shouldn't wear it even if they want to while accepting religious practices that are similar but are okay because I don't mind the religion in question. That's hypocritical.

I'm against oppression, I think this story is disgusting but I'm not ignorant enough to pretend that this is reflective of millions of people and their beliefs. There are plenty of muslims who choose not to wear a hijab and they have as much right to do so as muslims that choose to don the hijab.

It's ignorant and downright patronising to act like most muslim women don't have a choice in the matter.

[Withano]

Originally Posted by jaxie

The thread is about religious persecution.

Then as a person who believes the burqa should be banned worldwide, why do you think your arguments holds any weight?

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

I believe in freedom of choice, that means accepting choices that I might not agree with. I'm not going to make out that the Hijab/burka is evil and women shouldn't wear it even if they want to while accepting religious practices that are similar but are okay because I don't mind the religion in question. That's hypocritical.

I'm against oppression, I think this story is disgusting but I'm not ignorant enough to pretend that this is reflective of millions of people and their beliefs. There are plenty of muslims who choose not to wear a hijab and they have as much right to do so as muslims that choose to don the hijab.

It's ignorant and downright patronising to act like most muslim women don't have a choice in the matter.

Some women may have choice, but my concerns are for those that don't, the apparent apathy of some men on the oppression of women and the allowing of such oppressive practices in the Western world and bowing down to political correctness. It's actually political bullying.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Northern Monkey

It's a shame.Egypt was one of the freer Muslim countries.When i was there many Muslim women were just dressed in normal jeans and t-shirts etc.I saw more women in Bradford wearing the full mailbox suit than in Cairo.That was just before all the major trouble started over there.It was an amazing place to visit.
Let's hope it does'nt start going in the direction of Saudi Arabia.How do you change a country's ideology?Brainwash the kids.Seems like they are trying to radicalise the future generations.

Is this in reference to the meme from the BNP that found it's way onto facebook to be shared by 1000s?

Yes we really must guard against brainwashing kids....

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by Withano

Then as a person who believes the burqa should be banned worldwide, why do you think your arguments holds any weight?

Well actually you are misquoting me, I think all religious uniforms should be done away with for a happier world. I also think we'd be better off without religion.

I'm thinking that's probably not going to happen tomorrow but a girl can dream.

Why does my argument need to hold weight? Does it's ass look fat in this conversation?

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Withano

The point of the thread is that it is awful that Christian children in Egypt are being told how to dress..

An additional point that I made is that it will be ironic if those who believe burquas should be banned would become outraged at this, as they would be blissfully unaware that they would be contradicting themselves.

Telling Christians which items of clothing to wear is disgusting, similarly it os disgusting to tell anybody of any religion which articles of clothing to not wear. Anybody who hates one but preaches the other is contradicting themselves and are hypocritical.

You are not missing THE point Withano - you are missing lots of points. But before I expound, here is an image showing just what a Burqa is along with other traditional forms of coverings for Muslim women:

As can CLEARLY be seen, the BURQA is SINISTER and COVERS the ENTIRE wearer - to the point where identification of GENDER is impossible let alone identity of the wearer.

Nearly as bad, from a CONCEALMENT perspective, is the NIQAB, with the CHADOR - when it is worn high up the face so that only the eyes are revealed - as it is more often than not, being just as bad from the same perspective .

The HIJAB and KHIMAR, are on a par with the HABITS, COIFS, WIMPLES and VEILS worn by CHRISTIAN NUNS, and as such pose NO identification problems.

And IDENTIFICATION is THE issue here Withano.

NO ONE ever proposed banning ANY form of Muslim women's dress UNTIL Muslim Terrorists declared HOLY WAR upon the entire world and began to wreak the most evil campaign of death and destruction in it.

THEN and only THEN, did it not only become VITAL for the Security Forces of EVERY country in the world, to be able to readily IDENTIFY any MUSLIM, but it also became NECESSARY to put the worried minds of the citizens of those countries at rest.

UNIDENTIFIED people inside Burqas and Niqabs and Chadors, moving FREELY through the crowded Malls and Streets of our inner cities in ever INCREASING numbers, DO NOT placate anxious citizens nor alleviate their fears - perfectly understandable fears given the carnage inflicted upon ORDINARY, UNARMED, INNOCENT CIVILIANS by these terrorist cowards in many Cities throughout the world.

So there is no correlation between any call by the Security Forces or citizens of any free Western Democracy for the very sinister - and franky ludicrous - Burqa to be banned and this IMPOSING of Muslim dress and Muslim ideology on young schoolchildren who are not of that culture and not of that faith, at the cost of their own culture and faith, and with barbaric punishments for non-compliance.

There is also no correlation between the Burqa, Niqab, and Chador and the attire of Christian Nuns.

A Nun's attire does not fully conceal her gender nor her identity, and the Roman Catholic Church has not declared war on ALL Mankind, and is not currently committing atrocities within most countries of the world, and even in the comparatively rare incidents of evil Christian Extremist factions having committed atrocities in the name of God - there is NO evidence that Nuns have assisted them by concealing weapons and bombs beneath their habits.

Unfortunately, the same cannot be said of some Burqa and Niqab wearing Muslim women.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Is this in reference to the meme from the BNP that found it's way onto facebook to be shared by 1000s?

Yes we really must guard against brainwashing kids....

So are you stating that one wrong justifies another?

[Northern Monkey]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Is this in reference to the meme from the BNP that found it's way onto facebook to be shared by 1000s?

Yes we really must guard against brainwashing kids....

Nope...Well maybe but I wouldn't know.I don't get my analogies from the BNP.These women just remind me of walking post boxes when they're in the full kit.

[Withano]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

You are not missing THE point Withano - you are missing lots of points. But before I expound, here is an image showing just what a Burqa is along with other traditional forms of coverings for Muslim women:

As can CLEARLY be seen, the BURQA is SINISTER and COVERS the ENTIRE wearer - to the point where identification of GENDER is impossible let alone identity of the wearer.

Nearly as bad, from a CONCEALMENT perspective, is the NIQAB, with the CHADOR - when it is worn high up the face so that only the eyes are revealed - as it is more often than not, being just as bad from the same perspective .

The HIJAB and KHIMAR, are on a par with the HABITS, COIFS, WIMPLES and VEILS worn by CHRISTIAN NUNS, and as such pose NO identification problems.

And IDENTIFICATION is THE issue here Withano.

NO ONE ever proposed banning ANY form of Muslim women's dress UNTIL Muslim Terrorists declared HOLY WAR upon the entire world and began to wreak the most evil campaign of death and destruction in it.

THEN and only THEN, did it not only become VITAL for the Security Forces of EVERY country in the world, to be able to readily IDENTIFY any MUSLIM, but it also became NECESSARY to put the worried minds of the citizens of those countries at rest.

UNIDENTIFIED people inside Burqas and Niqabs and Chadors, moving FREELY through the crowded Malls and Streets of our inner cities in ever INCREASING numbers, DO NOT placate anxious citizens nor alleviate their fears - perfectly understandable fears given the carnage inflicted upon ORDINARY, UNARMED, INNOCENT CIVILIANS by these terrorist cowards in many Cities throughout the world.

So there is no correlation between any call by the Security Forces or citizens of any free Western Democracy for the very sinister - and franky ludicrous - Burqa to be banned and this IMPOSING of Muslim dress and Muslim ideology on young schoolchildren who are not of that culture and not of that faith, at the cost of their own culture and faith, and with barbaric punishments for non-compliance.

There is also no correlation between the Burqa, Niqab, and Chador and the attire of Christian Nuns.

A Nun's attire does not fully conceal her gender nor her identity, and the Roman Catholic Church has not declared war on ALL Mankind, and is not currently committing atrocities within most countries of the world, and even in the comparatively rare incidents of evil Christian Extremist factions having committed atrocities in the name of God - there is NO evidence that Nuns have assisted them by concealing weapons and bombs beneath their habits.

Unfortunately, the same cannot be said of some Burqa and Niqab wearing Muslim women.

None of this is relevant to your OP kirk. Ive not brought up nuns, and I agree there is little or no connection to make there.

Your OP, (you may have forgotten because the thread has taken a new life of its own) was about Christian children being forced to wear specific articles of clothing. I believe everyone thus far has agreed this is wrong. I also believe that the post that I quoted here is the first to create a link between the childrens clothing and terrorism in the thread.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Northern Monkey

Nope...Well maybe but I wouldn't know.I don't get my analogies from the BNP.These women just remind me of walking post boxes when they're in the full kit.

Obviously you do, it just didn't register ( that's what brainwashing is btw)

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

So are you stating that one wrong justifies another?

I'm highlighting how easy it is to influence people.

[Northern Monkey]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Obviously you do, it just didn't register ( that's what brainwashing is btw)

Well....I don't go on Facebook,I don't look at BNP propaganda and i don't get exposed to anything related to the BNP.So it's obviously not just me who sees the resemblance.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Northern Monkey

Well....I don't go on Facebook,I don't look at BNP propaganda and i don't get exposed to anything related to the BNP.So it's obviously not just me who sees the resemblance.

It was posted on here too.

[jennyjuniper]

Originally Posted by jaxie

Actually it should probably be banned everywhere because it is religious oppression of women. As should any religious doctrine telling people to stone other human beings for perceived wrongs/immodesty, telling people what to wear and that they aren't allowed to use contraceptives etc.

Unfortunately there are people who think that is all OK in the name of religion because some man told everyone god said it.

Well said Jaxie.

[Northern Monkey]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

It was posted on here too.

Great
You know.Whatever you might think,I do actually have my own mind.Sometimes on a good day it can actually be quite witty.The comparison i made was my own and one that i've thought for a long time.No BNP influence here.

[jennyjuniper]

Originally Posted by Firewire

Do you think nuns opting to wear religious dress as well as covering their heads is oppression?

No because it's their choice. If they tried to force others to wear habits it would be wrong. As far as the burqa debate goes, if women want to wear it fine, but if they are forced to wear it because islamic men find the sight of womens hair disturbing, then that's wrong. Islamic men should learn to control their own impulses instead of blaming women for showing their hair or skin.

[jennyjuniper]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

You are not missing THE point Withano - you are missing lots of points. But before I expound, here is an image showing just what a Burqa is along with other traditional forms of coverings for Muslim women:

As can CLEARLY be seen, the BURQA is SINISTER and COVERS the ENTIRE wearer - to the point where identification of GENDER is impossible let alone identity of the wearer.

Nearly as bad, from a CONCEALMENT perspective, is the NIQAB, with the CHADOR - when it is worn high up the face so that only the eyes are revealed - as it is more often than not, being just as bad from the same perspective .

The HIJAB and KHIMAR, are on a par with the HABITS, COIFS, WIMPLES and VEILS worn by CHRISTIAN NUNS, and as such pose NO identification problems.

And IDENTIFICATION is THE issue here Withano.

NO ONE ever proposed banning ANY form of Muslim women's dress UNTIL Muslim Terrorists declared HOLY WAR upon the entire world and began to wreak the most evil campaign of death and destruction in it.

THEN and only THEN, did it not only become VITAL for the Security Forces of EVERY country in the world, to be able to readily IDENTIFY any MUSLIM, but it also became NECESSARY to put the worried minds of the citizens of those countries at rest.

UNIDENTIFIED people inside Burqas and Niqabs and Chadors, moving FREELY through the crowded Malls and Streets of our inner cities in ever INCREASING numbers, DO NOT placate anxious citizens nor alleviate their fears - perfectly understandable fears given the carnage inflicted upon ORDINARY, UNARMED, INNOCENT CIVILIANS by these terrorist cowards in many Cities throughout the world.

So there is no correlation between any call by the Security Forces or citizens of any free Western Democracy for the very sinister - and franky ludicrous - Burqa to be banned and this IMPOSING of Muslim dress and Muslim ideology on young schoolchildren who are not of that culture and not of that faith, at the cost of their own culture and faith, and with barbaric punishments for non-compliance.

There is also no correlation between the Burqa, Niqab, and Chador and the attire of Christian Nuns.

A Nun's attire does not fully conceal her gender nor her identity, and the Roman Catholic Church has not declared war on ALL Mankind, and is not currently committing atrocities within most countries of the world, and even in the comparatively rare incidents of evil Christian Extremist factions having committed atrocities in the name of God - there is NO evidence that Nuns have assisted them by concealing weapons and bombs beneath their habits.

Unfortunately, the same cannot be said of some Burqa and Niqab wearing Muslim women.

This is why I love Kirk Lancaster.

[Northern Monkey]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

You are not missing THE point Withano - you are missing lots of points. But before I expound, here is an image showing just what a Burqa is along with other traditional forms of coverings for Muslim women:

As can CLEARLY be seen, the BURQA is SINISTER and COVERS the ENTIRE wearer - to the point where identification of GENDER is impossible let alone identity of the wearer.

Nearly as bad, from a CONCEALMENT perspective, is the NIQAB, with the CHADOR - when it is worn high up the face so that only the eyes are revealed - as it is more often than not, being just as bad from the same perspective .

The HIJAB and KHIMAR, are on a par with the HABITS, COIFS, WIMPLES and VEILS worn by CHRISTIAN NUNS, and as such pose NO identification problems.

And IDENTIFICATION is THE issue here Withano.

NO ONE ever proposed banning ANY form of Muslim women's dress UNTIL Muslim Terrorists declared HOLY WAR upon the entire world and began to wreak the most evil campaign of death and destruction in it.

THEN and only THEN, did it not only become VITAL for the Security Forces of EVERY country in the world, to be able to readily IDENTIFY any MUSLIM, but it also became NECESSARY to put the worried minds of the citizens of those countries at rest.

UNIDENTIFIED people inside Burqas and Niqabs and Chadors, moving FREELY through the crowded Malls and Streets of our inner cities in ever INCREASING numbers, DO NOT placate anxious citizens nor alleviate their fears - perfectly understandable fears given the carnage inflicted upon ORDINARY, UNARMED, INNOCENT CIVILIANS by these terrorist cowards in many Cities throughout the world.

So there is no correlation between any call by the Security Forces or citizens of any free Western Democracy for the very sinister - and franky ludicrous - Burqa to be banned and this IMPOSING of Muslim dress and Muslim ideology on young schoolchildren who are not of that culture and not of that faith, at the cost of their own culture and faith, and with barbaric punishments for non-compliance.

There is also no correlation between the Burqa, Niqab, and Chador and the attire of Christian Nuns.

A Nun's attire does not fully conceal her gender nor her identity, and the Roman Catholic Church has not declared war on ALL Mankind, and is not currently committing atrocities within most countries of the world, and even in the comparatively rare incidents of evil Christian Extremist factions having committed atrocities in the name of God - there is NO evidence that Nuns have assisted them by concealing weapons and bombs beneath their habits.

Unfortunately, the same cannot be said of some Burqa and Niqab wearing Muslim women.

Great post
And very relevant since whenever a thread comes along showing just how backwards and nasty Islam can be there are inevitably always either apologists,excusers or comparisons made to try and deflect attention off the topic and attempts to denigrate Western countries and anyone who disagrees with this barbaric ideology.It beggers belief.

[Tom4784]

There's no realistic way for the UK to become an extremist country. It is just pure hysteria that is based on neither reality nor fact.

Extremism must be stamped out but to act like an entire religion is the enemy is pure ignorance and will only accentuate the problem of extremists, not solve it.